What's the sound of a Musicman?

[Jack]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1343145294' post='1746042']
I know! If only I knew someone local who had one to try...
[/quote]

BCers are always welcome at Casa del Jack.

[Dingus]

I;m just glad its gone to a good home then, Pete ! If I wanted to could spend many an hour regretting basses I have let go of for what in retrospect was silly money, but I suppose hindsight is always 20/20, and I can remember when you could you could call in to the Bass centre at Wapping back in the 1980s and they would almost always have two or three pre EBMM Stingrays priced at £495.The next time you went in a few weeks later they had all been sold and a couple of different ones had arrived. I got mine from an advert in the back of Melody Maker for just over three hundred quid, I cant remember the exact amount. I paid . I remember selling 1970s Precision basses for £200 in the late 1980s and that being considered the going rate for them, , and selling a mint 1978 Jazz bass around then for about 350 quid, and being glad with what I got for it. Even allowing for inflation these sums in no way reflect the current market prices of these basses.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Dingus

[stingrayPete1977]

I think a lot of it is rose tinted specs though and more about the value of them than how much you liked them? The other problem is the people who think those basses are still there at those prices! I have often seen people comment on pre EB threads about the price and remarks about how little they cost in the USA, they think the same basses are $750 in the States the same as they were when they went on holiday in 1992

[Dingus]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1343331944' post='1749186']
I think a lot of it is rose tinted specs though and more about the value of them than how much you liked them? The other problem is the people who think those basses are still there at those prices! I have often seen people comment on pre EB threads about the price and remarks about how little they cost in the USA, they think the same basses are $750 in the States the same as they were when they went on holiday in 1992
[/quote]

It most certainly is about the cash value of them now rather than how they performed as instruments. Especially in respect of the mid to late 70s Fenders I used to own , the prices people are now paying for these collectables far exeeds their actual worth in terms of sound and playability, at least in my opinion anyway. As I am sure you are well aware , this era was not Fenders finest hour in terms of build quality or quality control, or indeed styling and I honestly believe that a modest Mexican Fender from the present day could be preferable to one of these if someone were to put prejudices and vintage hype aside . Even the early 70s Fenders I used to own which are now considered proper vintage would be trounced in many respects by one of todays American Standards. Of course you get the odd gem , but by and large late 70s Fenders were shabbily built by todays standards and often weighed a ton. Dont get me wrong, each to their own,, but people can get nostalgic over anything, however awful it was, and this to me is a case in point. I am not lumping original Musicman in with these by any means; their star was in ascendancy as Fender's was in decline My pre EB MM was built perfectly satisfactorily as far as I recall, but even at the time I remember thinking that the new EBMM Stingrays played better , had nicely figured maple necks and if anything sounded even more dynamic and punchy. than my original. I certainly don't mean to rubbish anyone elses vintage collection-everybody's got their own reasons for choosing what they like ,I love old Fenders and there are still a great many vintage basses that I drool over that are probably fantastic instruments to own- but for myself personally they are not the most practical choice anymore.
Regarding what people think these things are worth, i find that the same people who who have what I can euphamistically describe as extremely optimistic ( read: low) estimations of the value what you are selling are the exact same people who have hopelessly inflated estimates of the value of what they themselves have . As for the old urban myth of You Can Pick Them Up For Next To Nothing In The States, I would have to point out that the USA is the most developed capitalistic consumer society in the history of Mankind ; trust me when I tell you that if there was something - indeed anything- that was cheap in America that was valuable in the rest of the world then the Americans themselves would have taken full advantage of it a long time ago and exploited that market until it was exhausted . The laws of Supply and Demand are inescapable even in the world of rock and roll . American guitars are just as collectable , desirable and sought after in the USA as they are here and prices have certainly reflected that as long as I have been going over there , which i suppose would be back to the Reagan era. The only advantage in the guitar market in America is choice and availability.Prices often exceed those in Europe.

Edited July 27, 2012 by Dingus

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1343361400' post='1749513']


It most certainly is about the cash value of them now rather than how they performed as instruments. Especially in respect of the mid to late 70s Fenders I used to own , the prices people are now paying for these collectables far exeeds their actual worth in terms of sound and playability, at least in my opinion anyway. As I am sure you are well aware , this era was not Fenders finest hour in terms of build quality or quality control, or indeed styling and I honestly believe that a modest Mexican Fender from the present day could be preferable to one of these if someone were to put prejudices and vintage hype aside . Even the early 70s Fenders I used to own which are now considered proper vintage would be trounced in many respects by one of todays American Standards. Of course you get the odd gem , but by and large late 70s Fenders were shabbily built by todays standards and often weighed a ton. Dont get me wrong, each to their own,, but people can get nostalgic over anything, however awful it was, and this to me is a case in point. I am not lumping original Musicman in with these by any means; their star was in ascendancy as Fender's was in decline My pre EB MM was built perfectly satisfactorily as far as I recall, but even at the time I remember thinking that the new EBMM Stingrays played better , had nicely figured maple necks and if anything sounded even more dynamic and punchy. than my original. I certainly don't mean to rubbish anyone elses vintage collection-everybody's got their own reasons for choosing what they like ,I love old Fenders and there are still a great many vintage basses that I drool over that are probably fantastic instruments to own- but for myself personally they are not the most practical choice anymore.
Regarding what people think these things are worth, i find that the same people who who have what I can euphamistically describe as extremely optimistic ( read: low) estimations of the value what you are selling are the exact same people who have hopelessly inflated estimates of the value of what they themselves have . As for the old urban myth of You Can Pick Them Up For Next To Nothing In The States, I would have to point out that the USA is the most developed capitalistic consumer society in the history of Mankind ; trust me when I tell you that if there was something - indeed anything- that was cheap in America that was valuable in the rest of the world then the Americans themselves would have taken full advantage of it a long time ago and exploited that market until it was exhausted . The laws of Supply and Demand are inescapable even in the world of rock and roll . American guitars are just as collectable , desirable and sought after in the USA as they are here and prices have certainly reflected that as long as I have been going over there , which i suppose would be back to the Reagan era. The only advantage in the guitar market in America is choice and availability.Prices often exceed those in Europe.
[/quote]

This post wins my "post of the week award "... month... hell it's probably one of the most refreshingly frank posts I've read on here all year.

[4000]

For me there seem to be two "typical" Ray sounds (although they'll do lots of other things); the RATM-type sound (clicky, zingy, scooped - to my ears) and the Bernard Edwards sound, which is kind of the opposite. I've used two in various bands and have never been able to get a sound I was happy with. They just seemed kind of isolated from the music I was playing whatever I did with them, which isn't what I'm after, and I found them strangely undynamic to play, although one of them is a friend's bass and it sounds great in his hands & in his band.

On the other hand I briefly had a passive OLP that really nailed the Bernard sound, far better than the 2x Rays, strangely enough. I'd still like one though if I could find one that worked, although IME the Streamer Pro M seems to work better for me.

[Ou7shined]

For a minute there Shaun you were off my xmas card list but thankfully you redeemed yourself in the end. Although I find what you said odd coming from a guy who favours as prominent and distinct a tone as a Ric.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='4000' timestamp='1343377369' post='1749661']
For me there seem to be two "typical" Ray sounds (although they'll do lots of other things); the RATM-type sound (clicky, zingy, scooped - to my ears) and the Bernard Edwards sound, which is kind of the opposite. I've used two in various bands and have never been able to get a sound I was happy with. They just seemed kind of isolated from the music I was playing whatever I did with them, which isn't what I'm after, and I found them strangely undynamic to play, although one of them is a friend's bass and it sounds great in his hands & in his band.

On the other hand I briefly had a passive OLP that really nailed the Bernard sound, far better than the 2x Rays, strangely enough. I'd still like one though if I could find one that worked, although IME the Streamer Pro M seems to work better for me.
[/quote]

'Nard used flats, it would be difficult to get that sound with roundwounds. Lots if definition there though, notwithstanding his expertise in playing.

[Dingus]

[quote name='4000' timestamp='1343377369' post='1749661']
For me there seem to be two "typical" Ray sounds (although they'll do lots of other things); the RATM-type sound (clicky, zingy, scooped - to my ears) and the Bernard Edwards sound, which is kind of the opposite. I've used two in various bands and have never been able to get a sound I was happy with. They just seemed kind of isolated from the music I was playing whatever I did with them, which isn't what I'm after, and I found them strangely undynamic to play, although one of them is a friend's bass and it sounds great in his hands & in his band.

On the other hand I briefly had a passive OLP that really nailed the Bernard sound, far better than the 2x Rays, strangely enough. I'd still like one though if I could find one that worked, although IME the Streamer Pro M seems to work better for me.
[/quote]
[quote name='4000' timestamp='1343377369' post='1749661']
For me there seem to be two "typical" Ray sounds (although they'll do lots of other things); the RATM-type sound (clicky, zingy, scooped - to my ears) and the Bernard Edwards sound, which is kind of the opposite. I've used two in various bands and have never been able to get a sound I was happy with. They just seemed kind of isolated from the music I was playing whatever I did with them, which isn't what I'm after, and I found them strangely undynamic to play, although one of them is a friend's bass and it sounds great in his hands & in his band.

On the other hand I briefly had a passive OLP that really nailed the Bernard sound, far better than the 2x Rays, strangely enough. I'd still like one though if I could find one that worked, although IME the Streamer Pro M seems to work better for me.
[/quote]
I think the two nicely chosen examples you give for classic Stingray tones -RATM and Bernard Edwards- - perfectly demonstrate the range of tones from a Stingray. Reading this made me think about Tony Levin; he seems to combine something of both of these tones in his own unique ( and brilliant) approach . Maybe a big part of the enduring appeal and popularity of these basses is that they manage to combine a robustness ( both in terms of construction and tone) with a versatility that allows the bass to either be supportive or up front and at the centre of attention. Not many basses can cut through like a Stingray, especially in a loud rock group situation, but as well as having a slicing treble and upper mid rasp there is always plenty of bottom end available.
Those Streamer Pro Ms were /are fantastic basses, by the way . I nearly bought one when they were out , and have subsequently sometimes regretted not doing so. They get so many great and very usable sounds from that dual pickup arrangement. A bit of a lost classic , in my opinion. Talking of Warwicks and Stingray tones, for what it's worth, I think that the Warwick take on the classic MM humbucker used on the Jazzman , $$ ect is a really excellent sounding design that to my ears is more reminiscent of very early versions of the Stingray than most others I have heard. Whether this is entirely due to the pickup or the preamp they have allied it to I really don't know , but the overall result sounds very good to me. It would be interesting to hear one of these pickups in a Musicman bass.

Edited July 27, 2012 by Dingus

[4000]

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1343391396' post='1750018']
For a minute there Shaun you were off my xmas card list but thankfully you redeemed yourself in the end. Although I find what you said odd coming from a guy who favours as prominent and distinct a tone as a Ric.
[/quote]

Off your list? Where are my last 4 then?

Well the thing is with the Rics, I can vary the dynamics far more with my playing. Comparatively speaking, the MMs are just kind of on/off in my hands. I have the same problem with Status, and with many (but not all) other actives. The frequency separation thing is a weird one. I can get a Ric to sit in a track really well, but its frequency spread just seems completely different. The MMs always sounded like they weren't part of what everyone else was playing. The rest of the band thought so too. This is in my hands though, the man who can make any Jazz in the world sound like something George Formby would play. I actually love the MM sound in (most) other hands.

Strangely, although I've used a couple in anger, it's one of the only well-known basses I've never owned. I keep thinking I'd love a Classic (I don't get on very well with forearm contours), but for that money I'd just end up putting it to something more exotic.

Edited July 27, 2012 by 4000

[4000]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1343392479' post='1750046']
'Nard used flats, it would be difficult to get that sound with roundwounds. Lots if definition there though, notwithstanding his expertise in playing.
[/quote]

I used rounds on the aforementioned passive OLP, but that had no inherent treble to speak of.

[Wan]

I have a gorgeous USA Sterling for sale on here, someone should buy it and give it a good home....

[Dingus]

I seem to remember seeing this clip in some other context on Basschat, but I watched it again recently and was struck by what a great example of what is to me the archetypal Stingray sound . The full-bore attack of this bass allied to the superb skills of the guy who's playing it.makes every note punch through the mix on this performance.:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egwel8tQPg8

[drTStingray]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1343392479' post='1750046']
'Nard used flats, it would be difficult to get that sound with roundwounds. Lots if definition there though, notwithstanding his expertise in playing.
[/quote]

Are you sure - I remember seeing an interview with Nile Rogers - he said someone asked them as part of an interview with them both back in the 70s, what strings Nard used and Nard asked Nile if he knew what strings came on a Musicman............suggesting he hadn't changed them from new.

My pre EB definitely came with rounds but I have no idea what make.

All that said, the popping on We Are Family is definitely very similar to the effect on a Stingray with flats - but Bernard Edwards was a phenominally skilled player, particularly of groove so no doubt a great deal was in the fingers - he may also have had the mutes wound on.

[bremen]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1345206790' post='1774968']
I seem to remember seeing this clip in some other context on Basschat, but I watched it again recently and was struck by what a great example of what is to me the archetypal Stingray sound . The full-bore attack of this bass allied to the superb skills of the guy who's playing it.makes every note punch through the mix on this performance.:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egwel8tQPg8[/media]
[/quote]

Not usually a fan of slap but that's wonderful, proves that slap doesn't necessarily mean fretw***.

edit I said 'fretwork', dammit

Edited August 17, 2012 by bremen

[kingysilvers]

This always is the first thing to spring to mind when I think of 'rays:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGJFWirQ3ks[/media]

[Dingus]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1345210840' post='1775045']
Are you sure - I remember seeing an interview with Nile Rogers - he said someone asked them as part of an interview with them both back in the 70s, what strings Nard used and Nard asked Nile if he knew what strings came on a Musicman............suggesting he hadn't changed them from new.

My pre EB definitely came with rounds but I have no idea what make.

All that said, the popping on We Are Family is definitely very similar to the effect on a Stingray with flats - but Bernard Edwards was a phenominally skilled player, particularly of groove so no doubt a great deal was in the fingers - he may also have had the mutes wound on.
[/quote]

I had wondered about this too. I had always presumed the Bernard had used roundwounds, as most players probably did by 1977, but that is just an assumption. If someone knows better then I wil gladly defer to them . I have no idea if flats or rounds came factory -fitted on the early production models of the Stingray, and I too have heard that quote about him using the same strings that came with the bass. What I do know is that in the later stages of his career he was definitely using roundwounds and favoured a brighter sound. If you listen to Bernard on this track from Let's Dance , for example, which must have been recorded in 1982 it sounds very much to me like the unmistakable tone of a Stingray with roundwounds:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cs8EkDyqCo

[Musicman20]

[quote name='kingysilvers' timestamp='1345212399' post='1775065']
This always is the first thing to spring to mind when I think of 'rays:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGJFWirQ3ks[/media]
[/quote]

I was just thinking that the other day and watch the same video!

[mep]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1345206790' post='1774968']
I seem to remember seeing this clip in some other context on Basschat, but I watched it again recently and was struck by what a great example of what is to me the archetypal Stingray sound . The full-bore attack of this bass allied to the superb skills of the guy who's playing it.makes every note punch through the mix on this performance.:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egwel8tQPg8[/media]
[/quote]

Thanks for posting. That is one awesome sound and a great take on the original bassline. This whole arrangement really works well. Who is the guy on bass?

[Dingus]

[quote name='mep' timestamp='1345225378' post='1775294']
Thanks for posting. That is one awesome sound and a great take on the original bassline. This whole arrangement really works well. Who is the guy on bass?
[/quote]

He is called Mark Plati. He is actually one of Bowies guitarists but for some reason - maybe someone else knows why- he plays bass on that song whilst usual bassist Gail Ann Dorsey ( who is also a brilliant player ,who favours a Stingray as well) plays guitar.

[classrock]

Bought the pre- eb Ray from Mark at Bass Direct today.
One note was all it took. Amazing sound. I'm just gonna play this.
Hope the guy trying the cabs got sorted.

[Dingus]

[quote name='classrock' timestamp='1345227667' post='1775347']
Bought the pre- eb Ray from Mark at Bass Direct today.
One note was all it took. Amazing sound. I'm just gonna play this.
Hope the guy trying the cabs got sorted.
[/quote]

Is that the '76 sunburst one ? If so then you have just taken home what looks to be a rare and very beautiful example of a truly iconic bass. I hope you will posting pics and
be letting us know how you are getting on with it. Enjoy !

Edited August 17, 2012 by Dingus

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='classrock' timestamp='1345227667' post='1775347']
Bought the pre- eb Ray from Mark at Bass Direct today.
One note was all it took. Amazing sound. I'm just gonna play this.
Hope the guy trying the cabs got sorted.
[/quote]
I only saw that a couple of days ago! I think you have had a bargain there

Do you agree they have some kind of extra magic? People think they are just the same as an EBMM but the only parts that are interchangeable are the tuners, so they only look the same really!

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1345228380' post='1775366']


Is that the '76 sunburst one ? If so then you have just taken home what looks to be a rare and very beautiful example of a truly iconic bass. I hope you will posting pics be letting us know how you are getting on with it. Enjoy !
[/quote]
+1 I started a pre EB thread ages so make sure you post them there too.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1345206790' post='1774968']
I seem to remember seeing this clip in some other context on Basschat, but I watched it again recently and was struck by what a great example of what is to me the archetypal Stingray sound . The full-bore attack of this bass allied to the superb skills of the guy who's playing it.makes every note punch through the mix on this performance.:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egwel8tQPg8[/media]
[/quote]
If that does not give you Stingray gas then you have no soul