swanbrook Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Competition is great but again you missed the point, if I went into Paul's work for free he would be pretty pissed. Really can't understand how you can't see that, so guys enjoy the thread. Mushy, I never hint at anything or make apologies for making a living from music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassPimp66 Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 I am not a professional in any way. I just play for fun. I recall I got "pimped" by a few gig promoters on the London circuit back in the days. There was money, but they treated you like absolute s***. I also did some free gigs, got treated nicely, got a drinks, etc... So, if I can choose, I will take [money+nice people]. Now, if I have to choose between [money+s*** people] and [free + nice people]. I will go for the latter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul torch Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 (edited) [quote name='swanbrook' timestamp='1350062409' post='1834248'] As I have said over and over, you playing for free might prob won't affect me however it might other bands that play the same venues you do. I picked music and I have been doing it for over 20 years, what if I did design for the love of it and went to your place of work and did it for free . Do you really not see the point here after 13 pages ? The way I see it is, we all start somewhere and if your playing for free in a venue that's would normally pay bands then that is the same as me going into your office and working for free. If your playing for free in a venue that only has smaller bands or might only afford a band on sat night but would love some music Friday and gives you a few free beers, food or a jolly good reach around then that's not hurting anybody. [/quote]As I stated earlier, there are plenty of "hobbyist/amatuer" designers (on this forum) that offer work for free. I also have had plenty of people offering to work for free at various studios, some have even been offered work, but my clients know what they get for their money from me, someone that will deliver exactly what they need with the least fuss. I have only once been undercut to a point where I lost a contract but that client was on the verge of going bust and were desperate. Yes at the time I was a little pissed-off but am more than capable of picking up the slack elsewhere. In fact I have since worked regularly with the "under cutter" and we have discussed the situation and both of us feel that in that situation the responsibility lies with the client not the trader. As people have already stated here you get what you pay for. That doesn't necessarily mean quality/creativity but it does mean peace of mind. It happens in several "creative" industries and always has. If you are worth the fees that you ask and your reputation is solid then you will survive, if not, then don't give-up the day job. Edited October 13, 2012 by paul torch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul torch Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1350084518' post='1834539'] Good evening, swanbrook (or may I call you Swan..?)... If Paul's boss prefers to have your designs for free to Paul's at his going rate, then that's called 'competition'. If Paul gets better yet (is that possible..? ), and the boss then stops using your designs, that's the boss's prerogative. It's the boss who decides, not you or Paul. Similarly, if Paul plays for free and the landlord or promoter prefers his free music to your paid set, that's competition. The landlord calls the tune. It would br up to you to make it worth the landlord paying you. Is that a fair [i]resumé [/i]of the state of things..? I'm not insinuating in any way that your musicianship has no, or little value; only that it's not up to you to judge that value. It's up to those buying, not selling. No malice intended; meanwhile... [/quote] good response. that's how business works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 (edited) It certainly is NOT competition. In a competitive market the producers are able to reduce their price until they are making marginal profits. It's how the free market works. Any business that makes losses on it's products better have a very good strategy in place to recoup their losses. As I say, all musicians are offsetting their pub losses by other means, teaching, working in offices, dole money, sickness benefit. The difficulty here is that some musicians here can see that, and some can't. Long term the pub market, will (or has already?) collapsed. TBH it doesn't really matter, do people really go to pubs to see a high quality band? No. They pay for tickets and go to a venue. Anyone in a high quality band knows this, you soon get good positive feedback from the landlord and the punters. Comments like 'Can you do my wedding' and 'You're much better than the other bands they put on here', just go to prove that. Pub gigs are advertising space and proving grounds. So either we all pull together and form a cartel and price fix pubs or we, as Darwin says' Adapt and survive. Edited October 13, 2012 by TimR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul torch Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1350120240' post='1834722'] Adapt and survive. [/quote] I would suggest this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstriper Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Nobody has yet given a single example of how bands playing for free has had a negative effect on them, financially or otherwise. Can we have some real world examples showing how this disgraceful behaviour has caused such misery and resentment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveK Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 (edited) [old man mode/on] Never, in all my 40+ years of gigging, has musicians/bands playing for free ever been an issue, for me or any other musician... it was never a topic of conversation. In fact, in the 70s, it was the accepted norm for a new band, trying to make a name, to play and lose money. Okay, we would be paid a nominal fee, but the cost of doing the gig etc... I did it for a few years (supportive parents). It was [b]the[/b] way of learning your craft - grotty pubs and clubs, all environments. It was called 'payin' yer dues'. It has held me in good stead... I wouldn't have had it any other way. [old man mode/off] [quote name='swanbrook' timestamp='1350072960' post='1834382'] And now the insults start again, enjoy your free gigs guys [/quote] Insults? Haven't read the whole thread, but this last page, as far as I can see, is 'insult' free. BTW haven't done a free gig (that wasn't for charity) since the 70s. Edited October 13, 2012 by SteveK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swanbrook Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 As I said from the start playing for free in the right venue is how it is done, really bored with repeating myself Redstiper ..,. I gave a real world example in a local venue. If you want to read it go back a few pages you diddnt get it first time I doubt you will now. Play for free all you want guys I am just amazed that you are that singled minded that you can't see both side of the argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oggiesnr Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Using the same logic of "never play for free cos the landlord is making money and should pay you" we should never attend an open mike or a jam session without demanding payment as the main reason they run is to make money by (hopefully) drawing a crowd who put money in the till. In my day job I'm continually up against hobby woodworkers who only charge for materials and a bit of pin money and so can easily undercut me. It's the way it works, I can't change it so I just have to be better, do something that's a bit different, make myself standout. I suspect that the same may be the case in music. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstriper Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 [quote name='swanbrook' timestamp='1350124081' post='1834792'] Redstiper ..,. I gave a real world example in a local venue. If you want to read it go back a few pages you diddnt get it first time I doubt you will now. [/quote] Why do you do doubt me? I'm sorry I missed your post of how this has affected you directly - what is the post number, to save me trawling through the whole thing again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swanbrook Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 [quote name='oggiesnr' timestamp='1350124395' post='1834798'] Using the same logic of "never play for free cos the landlord is making money and should pay you" we should never attend an open mike or a jam session without demanding payment as the main reason they run is to make money by (hopefully) drawing a crowd who put money in the till. In my day job I'm continually up against hobby woodworkers who only charge for materials and a bit of pin money and so can easily undercut me. It's the way it works, I can't change it so I just have to be better, do something that's a bit different, make myself standout. I suspect that the same may be the case in music. Steve [/quote] Pretty sure nobody has said never play for free Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swanbrook Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 I think it's clear that the people who play for free are either kids trying to get a start, guys like mushy who have played one gig this year( even you 14 year old has done more gigs than you) fly fisher is clearly too busy needlessly killing fish for sport ( shame on you sir) or guy just as a hobby having the craic. Really don't think it is a prob for me. .... But then I said that in my first post Funny enough I did a dep gig a few weeks ago in a jam band and had a blast ( yes I got paid as did we all) I couldn't do it every week as it would bug the life out of me for much the same reason that some of you said you can't do the corp scene, different people different gigs eh ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstriper Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 [quote name='swanbrook' timestamp='1350125255' post='1834812'] Really don't think it is a prob for me [/quote] So who is it a problem for? A few real life examples of bands losing work please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 (edited) Jam nights are paid. The house band gets paid but it is true, it is a filler night both for the muso who runs it and the pub. Open mics are for bands and solos to get showcased at that venue... so has the loss-leader effect. But that is normally for bands that can't get a gig there in the first instance so they have to do the demo/showcase route. There is also the agent putting on open nights to 'get' acts for their rosta...but most likely, they have done a deal with the pub for organsing the night an the pub pays the 'agent' rather than the bands. It can be cannon fodder Edited October 13, 2012 by JTUK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swanbrook Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 ...... Jasus dude the post was along the lines of Btw pm me for names of venue and bands and I will happily send them Local venue when I moved here used to pay 80 quid a man to play on a sat night, some other bands set up and went in for 30 quid a man. Cheap bands have split up and f***ed off leaving the first bands still getting 30 quid a man. In fairness the venue now only does small two piece gigs I think. But if that inst real enough I don't know what is. I don't play the venue, only ever did one gig there and really diddnt like the owner so never went back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstriper Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 [quote name='swanbrook' timestamp='1350126174' post='1834828'] I don't play the venue, only ever did one gig there and really diddnt like the owner so never went back. [/quote] So dude, that's one venue that cut it's band payments and it doesn't affect you anyway. There is no mention in your post of bands playing for free and [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]30 quid a man sounds reasonable to me (more than my band usually gets).[/font][/color] Times are hard and both venues and bands are struggling, but blaming other musicians won't help or change anything. Sorry, but I just don't see what all the fuss is about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swanbrook Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 ...... That's what I have been saying since the start, there is no fuss. You asked for an example I give you one that I know if and you picked holes in it to see only what you wanted to. That's was my point all along just see both sides not just your side Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisB Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 [quote name='Earbrass' timestamp='1350035181' post='1833721'] When I was last in a band (originals) we played gigs for free because we were ermm...ahead of our time, yeah, that's it, we were way ahead of our time , and it was a case of playing for free or not at all. Just being in it for fun, I thought we got quite a good deal actually, as we were always provided with a stage, PA, back-line amps and basic drum kit, and were given the chance to play to a handful of our mates and (sometimes) the other bands on the bill.[/quote] Same situation here, choice between playing free or not at all. The only musicians we're taking work from are ones who aren't worth paying... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstriper Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 [quote name='swanbrook' timestamp='1350127225' post='1834838'] That's was my point all along just see both sides not just your side [/quote] Chill dude, I'm trying to see your side and I'm not simply trying to win an internet argument here. It's an interesting subject that affects all performing musicians. I haven't seen any evidence here of anyone being hurt by bands playing for free and your example doesn't mention the phenomena. Unless you're saying that band fees are generally going down and eventually we will all have to play free to get a gig? Unknown bands have to play free or even pay to play, just to get noticed and most of them will never reach the professional level. Big name acts and function bands get decent fees, leaving unknown original bands to struggle - this has always been a problem and it's due to market place economics, which are particularly bad right now. Them's the breaks dude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveK Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 A couple of years back, a blind, one-legged lady, wearing a blue duffel coat and odd socks tripped over my dog... I was most upset, as was Fido. I really don't think that blind, one legged ladies wearing blue duffel coats and odd socks tripping over dogs should be tolerated... I feel I should speak out against this kind of thing. What do you folks think? Only kidding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrig Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 [quote name='swanbrook' timestamp='1350125255' post='1834812'][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]fly fisher is clearly too busy needlessly killing fish for sport ( shame on you sir)[/font][/color][/quote] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]I fish too, maybe for 50 odd years, I don't seem to recall [b][i]killing[/i][/b] any of them![/font][/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveK Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 [quote name='redstriper' timestamp='1350130024' post='1834897'] Chill dude, I'm trying to see your side and I'm not simply trying to win an internet argument here. It's an interesting subject that affects all performing musicians. [/quote] It's really not! But your diplomatic skills are duly noted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstriper Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 (edited) [quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1350130174' post='1834899'] A couple of years back, a blind, one-legged lady, wearing a blue duffel coat and odd socks tripped over my dog... I was most upset, as was Fido. I really don't think that blind, one legged ladies wearing blue duffel coats and odd socks tripping over dogs should be tolerated... I feel I should speak out against this kind of thing. What do you folks think? Only kidding [/quote] I resent old people, young people and animals, especially when they do things for free....... swines And don't start me on rocks, plants and insects... AND FISH !!!......... FFS - what have they ever done for us? - lazy sh1ttin' tossers, come over here, taking our men....... Edited October 13, 2012 by redstriper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstriper Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 [quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1350130426' post='1834905'] It's really not! But your diplomatic skills are duly noted. [/quote] Thanks man, you're right it's really not! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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