play for free

[KingBollock]

[quote name='swanbrook' timestamp='1349911397' post='1832299']
Look I said it twice already it won't effect me, I do see both sides and agree I think to a point playing for free isn't the best idea in the world but in general it's not going bother me.

When I moved to this town the standard fee for a band was 80 quid a man ( again in pubs not weddings) now because bands where under cutting the standard is 30. And if the guys are happy doing it than fair enough. I don't look down at anyone who has the balls to play live.
Sorry about the prat thing ! But I take what I do very seriously made too much the fishing stands but I will be watching from the side with a beer and practicing brown eye girl
[/quote]
In which case my posts weren't really meant for you, but to the few posts in this thread that expressed a very different view.

I might join you with the Uke that I like to take fishing with me, so I can widdle about on it while waiting for a bite and trying to drown out the sound of the ducks laughing at me.

Here's a thing, though, I don't even play live, I haven't for over 20 years, I'm not in a band. A few years ago I was talking to a local musician who asked if I was looking for a band. I told her the sort of thing I wanted to do, but said that I was just in it for fun, not interested in making any money at it. She suddenly seemed to turn into a Gollum type creature and hissed "Well some of us have to!".

[flyfisher]

This topic certainly seems to be contentious, but it's interesting that it's the people who don't want to play for free that seem to be keenest to tell everyone how to run a band, even though they then go on to say that bands playing for free don't affect them.

If no one is affected, what's the problem? We've had eloquent defences of both sides of the argument so why not just let people get on with their bands as they wish?

Oh, and what's wrong with fishing anyway?

[thebrig]

If we put it all into context, we are all outdoing each other!

Band A plays for free
Band B says they wont play for free, but will play for £50
Band C wants £100
Band D wants £200
and so on.........

Now think about it, some of you are suggesting that the bands playing for free, or for peanuts are not doing you any favours by devaluing the going rate, but surely even you go in and negotiate a price, let's say, you ask for £900 and there might be another band after the same gig as you, have already asked for a £1000, chances are, you will get the gig, go away and think you are keeping the going rate as it should be.

What I am trying to say is, most bands negotiate regardless of how good they are, so therefore will be undercutting the band who charges a bit more, I'm not saying this is right or wrong, it's just the way it is.

If you are a band that has a fixed fee and you stick by it, and I mean, lets say, you charge £1000 per gig, and when offered £950 you walk away, then great, I admire you for it, but on the other hand, if you say, oh all right then, it's only £50 less, what does it matter, then that's a different story, because if other bands are charging £1000 as well, then you are undercutting them and starting a downward spiral of the going rate.

[JTUK]

I just think you need a value for the service you provide and that value can be gauged by whoever is willing to pay it.

It doesn't mean the band charging £300 in a pub is the best band musically, it means they have convinced the payer that it is worth it.
Don't get me started on that one tho...
If you want to make a competition out of it..and despite what people may want you to believe, it can be very competitive, you can say our gig that grossed
X beats your Y..bla bla... but people who watch bands generally latch onto one thing and that makes all the difference to them as regards to whether or how much they like that band. There is no simple arbiter, so a general rule of thumb put about is that the better bands charge more money.. because they are deemed worth more money.

If you don't charge for your services or see the need... ok..!! I am of the opnion that everyone should charge but realise that there are reasons why some don't.
Our policy is that we don't do free gigs.

[TimR]

I think to blame musicians who undercut other musicians for the fall in pay is over-simplistic. It's a free market and if people are able to sell their services for less to one market by charging more in another market then that is the way of the world.

Step into any supermarket. Fuel is being sold at less than market price and being subsidised by people buying overpriced milk. This is similar to proffesionals playing the pub for £250 on Friday then playing a wedding for £2k on the Saturday.

If you take this to the nth degree you also have musicians who have to subsidise performing music by doing other jobs; teaching, recording or working in offices. So I think it's unfair to criticise one person who works in an office to subsidise playing in pubs when 'full time' musicians are doing exactly the same by teaching or recording.

In all honesty there are some bands with standard setlists 2x45mins, the play same tunes with a few changes every few months, there are other bands with literally hundreds of tunes in their repertoire who can play requests.

Should the first band really be charging the same as the second band? Is "Play Hey Jude", "Sorry, We don't know that, here's Get Back instead." really worth £250?

[swanbrook]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1349946190' post='1832471']

Oh, and what's wrong with fishing anyway?
[/quote]

fly fishing looks like it might be good fun, my father in law recons its too much work and would rather cast a line and get back to drinking ! maybe thats why there is so muvh salmon in his river .
anyway at least fishing is slightly better thn golf !! (run and hide )

[BigRedX]

[quote name='chrismuzz' timestamp='1349789774' post='1830538']
What if it was a tribute band called Rick Renholm & The Telephones? And what if they played for free?
[/quote]

Lets face it though, unless The Terrortones get really big we're unlikely to be inspiring anyone to form a tribute band, and if we'd reached that level of popularity they hardly be a threat. Besides any band playing our songs are generating PRS performance royalties for us. Money without even doing anything. Bargain!

[The Dark Lord]

[quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1349948341' post='1832508']
If we put it all into context, we are all outdoing each other!

Band A plays for free
Band B says they wont play for free, but will play for £50
Band C wants £100
Band D wants £200
and so on.........

Now think about it, some of you are suggesting that the bands playing for free, or for peanuts are not doing you any favours by devaluing the going rate, but surely even you go in and negotiate a price, let's say, you ask for £900 and there might be another band after the same gig as you, have already asked for a £1000, chances are, you will get the gig, go away and think you are keeping the going rate as it should be.

What I am trying to say is, most bands negotiate regardless of how good they are, so therefore will be undercutting the band who charges a bit more, I'm not saying this is right or wrong, it's just the way it is.

If you are a band that has a fixed fee and you stick by it, and I mean, lets say, you charge £1000 per gig, and when offered £950 you walk away, then great, I admire you for it, but on the other hand, if you say, oh all right then, it's only £50 less, what does it matter, then that's a different story, because if other bands are charging £1000 as well, then you are undercutting them and starting a downward spiral of the going rate.
[/quote]

Pass Go and collect £200 for the most intelligent post so far in this thread. Well done.

[TimR]

I wonder how much of this 'undercutting' is real world experience, or whether it's just percieved. Whenever I've done pub gigs we have been offered a 'going rate'. The landlord usually just says we usually pay £250 or whatever. It's then down to you if you accept it or not.

Rarely are we asked how much we want. I don't think I've ever been asked to play for free and have certainly never offered to play for free in a pub. Just seems completely alien and smacks of desperation. Sure you may be prepared to play for free, but whether you [b]should[/b] is the real thing being debated here.

I once played a pub for an agreed fee of £250. The pub just got gradually more busy as we played. At the end of the gig the landlord came up to us and said forget the £250, here's £350, people have been phoning their mates and getting them down to see you. See you again next month for £350? - Only happened once though

[BigRedX]

I still don't understand who people here can consider bands to be interchangeable.

Do those who are worried about being undercut for a gig consider their band interchangeable with the bands that are supposedly undercutting them? In that case I would suggest that there is something wrong with your band.

[chrismuzz]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1349956363' post='1832640']
Lets face it though, unless The Terrortones get really big we're unlikely to be inspiring anyone to form a tribute band, and if we'd reached that level of popularity they hardly be a threat. Besides any band playing our songs are generating PRS performance royalties for us. Money without even doing anything. Bargain!
[/quote]

Haha a sensible answer to a silly question!

[Doddy]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1349958901' post='1832701']
I wonder how much of this 'undercutting' is real world experience, or whether it's just percieved. Whenever I've done pub gigs we have been offered a 'going rate'. The landlord usually just says we usually pay £250 or whatever. It's then down to you if you accept it or not.
[/quote]
When I was regularly playing pub gigs,I knew of at least one band who happily admitted that they would offer to do
the gigs for £100-150 when most were going out for around £200-250.

[TimR]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1349961442' post='1832743']

When I was regularly playing pub gigs,I knew of at least one band who happily admitted that they would offer to do
the gigs for £100-150 when most were going out for around £200-250.
[/quote]

Is that the same as bidding for the same night at the same pub? I was thinking more along the lines of aggressive undercutting where a band may have a residency where everyone is happy until another band comes along and says they can do the same for less.

If a pub is looking for bands to fill a slot and is open to offers, is that different?

Just trying to see what sort of people these 'play for free type musicians' are.

[Len_derby]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1349974546' post='1833017']
Just trying to see what sort of people these 'play for free type musicians' are.
[/quote]

Judging from quite a few replies and from my own perspective, it's the same people who also play for money.
In some circumstances I play for free. In others, I want payment. It all depends.
Personally, I've never nicked anyone's gig by undercutting. Or had it done to me. To be honest, I've not come across it. But maybe I live a sheltered life in a relative backwater.
My take on it all is that if any band I'm in can't command the money we think we deserve, then it's our fault, no one elses.

[oggiesnr]

Tis better to play for free than to pay to play

Steve

[Earbrass]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1349974546' post='1833017']
Just trying to see what sort of people these 'play for free type musicians' are.
[/quote]

When I was last in a band (originals) we played gigs for free because we were ermm...ahead of our time, yeah, that's it, we were way ahead of our time , and it was a case of playing for free or not at all. Just being in it for fun, I thought we got quite a good deal actually, as we were always provided with a stage, PA, back-line amps and basic drum kit, and were given the chance to play to a handful of our mates and (sometimes) the other bands on the bill. I can't believe we were ever a threat to any professional musicians worthy of the name. Talking to my mate whose son is now in an originals band who are quite serious about their future in music, they seem to accept pay-to-play as the norm . I'd draw the line at that, not because I object to subsidising my fun, but because I'd feel taken advantage of.

These days, with the morris, we do a mixture of paid and unpaid shows. When performing at festivals such as the recent Wallingford Bunkfest, we get free access to events and free camping for those who want it, but no fee. Most of the events are free anyway, and quite a few of us older and less hardy types patronised the local inns and hotels, and all of us spent money in the pubs and on food in the town. These are the very businesses who co-fund the festival, as I understand it, so all of us free performers, by providing some of the spectacle that attracts people to the festival and by spending money in the town, were actually helping to fund the pros like the fabulous Oyster Band who headlined on the Saturday night (I assume it was a paid gig for them and the other main performers - but I have no inside knowledge on the matter).

[redstriper]

Resenting people playing for free is a negative view, It's like resenting foreigners for taking our jobs.

Think positive, live and let live and stop blaming other people for your problems.

[TimR]

I'm not resenting anyone, just aware of the practicalities, this from another thread...

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1350031883' post='1833652']
Maybe the band just likes rehearsing... but why would anyone want to be a dep for the dep and play with the band for 5 nights for £50?

I'd say a dep would need to be desperate to take up this offer, but then,as we found out in other threads, there are so many of us who would happily play for free that £50 would be like winning the Lottery.
[/quote]

I think it illustrates exatly why agreeing to play for free is a bad idea. As soon as one of your band drops out you have to find a dep. Their first call dep is not 'available'. So now they're struggling to find a pro dep because it's for only £50.

When our band wanted to do free gigs I always pointed this out to the rest of the band. If one of us drops out we're no longer playing for free, we're going to have to put our hands in our pockets for £30 each to pay the extra member, who hasn't rehearsed, won't be helping set up or pack down. Will just turn up and play, take the money, and go home....

[gjones]

If you play for free, it means you don't value yourself. Maybe you feel you are so bad that you don't deserve to be paid. But if you are good and you do value your skill and the hard work you've put into achieving that level of musicianship, then It's demeaning to you and the fellow musicians in your band to accept being asked to play for free.

Of course sometimes, if you're playing original material, you may need to be pragmatic about the cash side because you need to build a following before you start asking for decent money. Saying that, any originals band I've ever played in never played for free.

Edited October 12, 2012 by gjones

[paul torch]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1350039416' post='1833813']
If you play for free, it means you don't value yourself. Maybe you feel you are so bad that you don't deserve to be paid. But if you are good and you do value your skill and the hard work you've put into achieving that level of musicianship, then It's demeaning to you and the fellow musicians in your band to accept being asked to play for free.

Of course sometimes, if you're playing original material, you may need to be pragmatic about the cash side because you need to build a following before you start asking for decent money. Saying that, any originals band I've ever played in never played for free.
[/quote]

I do value myself. Not everything is measured in by financial gain.

[gjones]

[quote name='paul torch' timestamp='1350040922' post='1833847']
I do value myself. Not everything is measured in by financial gain.
[/quote]

But it's a good place to start.

[Earbrass]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1350039416' post='1833813']
If you play for free, it means you don't value yourself.
[/quote]

What a sad little life you must lead if you can only feel valued when being paid.

[gjones]

[quote name='Earbrass' timestamp='1350041910' post='1833864']
What a sad little life you must lead if you can only feel valued when being paid.
[/quote]

I hope your boss doesn't use that line when your next months salary doesn't get paid into your bank account.

[thebrig]

First and foremost, playing my bass is a HOBBY that I get immense PLEASURE out of, but at the moment, I have not played with my band for nearly six weeks, due to the fact that our singer had to retire through ill-health, and various other reasons, and we are now in the process of finding a new vocalist.

We have a rehearsal booked for next Thursday where we hope to audition a couple of potential singers, and it can't come soon enough for me, because I just want to PLAY, and if one of the many bands that I know was to phone me now asking me to dep for them, I would be there like a shot, and I would happily do it for nothing, because it's my HOBBY, if there is a payment, then that would be a bonus.

It's nothing to do with me [u]not [/u][font="helvetica, arial, sans-serif"][color="#282828"][u]valuing myself[/u], or that [u]I feel so bad[/u] that I don't deserve to be paid, it's my HOBBY and my ENJOYMENT, why can't people accept that some people actually enjoy playing, and don't just do it just for money.[/color][/font][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]As it stands, I would say that 99% of all the gigs that I have played, have been payed gigs, but I would never pack up playing, like some people have suggested, if we never got payed again, why would I want to pack up doing something I love, just because there is no "reward"? the reward for me is PLAYING because it is what I love doing most![/font][/color]

[thebrig]

[quote name='Earbrass' timestamp='1350041910' post='1833864']
What a sad little life you must lead if you can only feel valued when being paid.
[/quote]
Just what I was thinking!