play for free

[Adrenochrome]

I can't afford to play for free as that means I would be running at quite a loss. The 'expenses' we get from playing mainly covers in pubs and clubs basically covers my costs, so I actually play for no net profit and that's fine because I enjoy it. I would [i]strongly encourage[/i] bands to charge a reasonable amount (even if they don't need it).
Even in my originals days we only played very occasional charity gigs for free (and usually got beers for nowt), for everything else we got enough to cover our fuel at least.

[swanbrook]

[quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1350130328' post='1834903']

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]I fish too, maybe for 50 odd years, I don't seem to recall [b][i]killing[/i][/b] any of them![/font][/color]
[/quote]
Then what do you do ...... Not 50 years of pulling fish out of the water only to f*** them back in again is that nor worse dude, at least catch them to eat them no. Is that not like going to the pub ordering a pint of Guinness and just looking at it
" lovely eh"
"Yup sure is, will we drink it ?"
"Noooooo can't do that stick it back in the keg"

Yes I am just kidding !

[Dad3353]

Killing 'em..? Nah, he has one of these at home...

[attachment=120852:Aqua.jpg]

Edited October 13, 2012 by Dad3353

[thebrig]

[quote name='swanbrook' timestamp='1350136053' post='1835004']
Then what do you do ...... Not 50 years of pulling fish out of the water only to f*** them back in again is that nor worse dude, at least catch them to eat them no. Is that not like going to the pub ordering a pint of Guinness and just looking at it
" lovely eh"
"Yup sure is, will we drink it ?"
"Noooooo can't do that stick it back in the keg"

Yes I am just kidding !
[/quote]
Oh Dear!
You have been in a bad mood these past few days, you must be great fun to have a pint of Guinness with!

[flyfisher]

[quote name='swanbrook' timestamp='1350125255' post='1834812']
I think it's clear that the people who play for free are either kids trying to get a start, guys like mushy who have played one gig this year( even you 14 year old has done more gigs than you) [b]fly fisher is clearly too busy needlessly killing fish for sport ( shame on you sir)[/b] or guy just as a hobby having the craic. Really don't think it is a prob for me. .... But then I said that in my first post
[/quote]

For the record, I only fish for salmon and trout and eat every one I kill. Other fish-eaters choose to pay people to kill their fish for them. But that's a whole other discussion.

As for being clear about the sorts of people playing for free, it may not be as clear as you think. I've just checked my band diary and it shows that I played 10 gigs in 2009, 18 in 2010, 16 in 2011 and 11 so far this year with two more already booked and, if previous years are anything to go by, more to come around Christmas and New Year.

Not exactly a tough schedule, I'll freely admit, but enough to blow away the cobwebs and gets me out and about in an enjoyable manner. Only a handful were paid gigs, which probably makes me a Bad Man in your world.


[quote name='swanbrook' timestamp='1350124081' post='1834792']
Play for free all you want guys I am just amazed that you are that singled minded that you can't see both side of the argument.
[/quote]

What is the other side of the argument? All I detect is a lot of people saying playing for free is a bad thing and telling others that they shouldn't be doing it. I don't recall 'the other side' telling people how they should run their bands.

You have to deal with the world as it is, not how you'd like it to be.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='oggiesnr' timestamp='1350124395' post='1834798']
In my day job I'm continually up against hobby woodworkers who only charge for materials and a bit of pin money and so can easily undercut me. It's the way it works, I can't change it so I just have to be better, do something that's a bit different, make myself standout. I suspect that the same may be the case in music.
[/quote]

This.

[KingBollock]

It seems to me that the blame for the perceived fault actually lies with the venue.

And the claim that venues are closing down because they put the wrong bands on (because they've been tricked by people charging less or nothing) makes no sense whatsoever. If that really is the case then those people have no business being in business in the first place. If there really is a pattern where hiring cheaper bands = losing money, and they don't spot it, well...

If you can accept that, then you really should accept that those who aren't bothered about making money at it might feel the need to stick up for themselves in a thread intended to moan about them.

[swanbrook]

I thought I had given both sides of the issue, I thought I was talking to people who are also open minded
I accept that this has gone to stupidity, including some of my post re fishing, I accept that the thread gave me some entertainment while I wasn't to busy. I accept than when someone puts in a quote and all they can't think of writing is "this" that there not much left to say on the matter
I don't think it was the op's intention to have a go at anybody but I think it did people's back up. I think it really has gone beyond boring and finally I accept that some people will never be able to see both sides of any argument

[JTUK]

Or you could say that bands that don't charge or can't charge aren't very good at drawing people ..as they would surely be charging if they could...so therefore people don't go to the pub/club/venue.
Gigs are very very rarely free, IME... as there is always a cost somewhere, lie rent/rates/staff etc etc
Wouldn't actually blame these bands for closing the place down, but maybe they aren't any good at getting to the whole point of the exercise..which is to entertain people.

You have to say that any band that can't get a gig in a pub is not upto much, tbh ..and there are plenty around here that maybe shouldn't but they do get out there and there seems to be room for them.

I tend to think some do the band nights more harm that good at times and people don't turn up on spec if the standard isn't consistant...but if the venue has a decent reputation for good bands then people might go there without knowing a thing about the bands appearing...if only to check in...
Of course, the only way you can vet the rosta is to know the band or have seen them elsewhere...or taken a recommendation from someone you trust..These are the better payers and more desirable gigs.

So, it really all depends where you set the bar..........

[TimR]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1350154193' post='1835305']
...
Wouldn't actually blame these bands for closing the place down, but maybe they aren't any good at getting to the whole point of the exercise..which is to entertain people.

...
[/quote]

This, I suspect is the main issue. Bands aren't necessarily there to entertain the people. I've seen bands who've been having a great time, playing tunes they like.

The crowd, however, have not.

[wateroftyne]

My contribution is this:

I play in a lot of bands.

Luckily, most are well established and draw a crowd. Money is being made, and it's only fair that I get part of it.

However, one of my bands is a start-up playing mostly original tunes. Gigs are hard to come by, so to become established (and hopefully work our way into the above category) we do the odd freebie as a platform to get the name out there.

Simple, innit.

(Charity gigs are case-by-case).

[lojo]

If you play for a living then you are in business providing a service

All forms of small bussiness have major forces to contend against to survive

A carpenter can complain that someone's handy mate helped fit a kitchen for beer money, causing him to lose the job

A printer/graphic designer can complain about modern software and home printers

A photographer can complain about hobbyists doing parties and weddings

And so on

Edited October 14, 2012 by lojo

[chrismuzz]

I've never been used to making money from gigs really... It's not why I got into music!

Though to be honest when I was approached to join a covers band my first thought was "Ooh, the guys on basschat get money for doing covers!", so me joining was partially motivated by that! Though to be honest, I expected to be picking up anything from £0 - £20 per gig, and having a good time doing it. Pleasantly surprised to be receiving a cut of up to £50 and sometimes above so soon into the gigging! I have such a great time that I wouldn't have minded doing it for free, but I'm so USED TO getting money now that I'd be less likely to do a gig that wasn't paid.... (probably still would though )

[chrismuzz]

[quote name='lojo' timestamp='1350196912' post='1835577']
If you play for a living then you are in business providing a service

All forms of small bussiness have major forces to contend against to survive

A carpenter can complain that someone's handy mate helped fit a kitchen for beer money, causing him to lose the job

A printer/graphic designer can complain about modern software and home printers

A photographer can complain about hobbyists doing parties and weddings

And so on
[/quote]

Fair point really.

If you're good enough people will still pay!

I've had players from successful local bands ask me for advice on how to get some money from gigs I said "Just ask for it"

[wateroftyne]

Also, it's a fact that it's harder than ever to be a full-time musician these days - the money just isn't there.

So, if the person with the money wants YOU specifically to do whatever it is you do, then you're in a good position to get paid for it.

However, if the person with the money just wants any old Tom, Dick or Harry there to do whatever it is they do, the cheapest / free person will generally win.

Sad, but true.

[mushers]

[quote name='slobluesine' timestamp='1342873279' post='1742144']
anyone else here totally pissed off with musicians who play for free?
[/quote]

well it seems most are not totally pissed off about bands not charging some frown upon those playing for free others dont care
i dont think its worth getting all worked up about or discussing till the end of time

[skidder652003]

Last Night
3 hours driving
2 hours set up, take down
2 hours playing
£80 each
£20 petrol
£60 for 7 hours on a saturday night £8.57 per hour
Bar staff? Prob 6/7 per hour (depending on age)
Better than playing for free or working behind a bar but wouldnt give up the day job!!

[thebrig]

If you really wont play for free ([i]which of coarse is entirely up to you[/i]), and you will only play for money ([i]again, that's entirely up to you[/i]), and I'm definitely not going to criticise anyone who wants to make money out of playing, but I do wonder how many of you realise ([i]although I'm sure you do[/i]), that any form of extra income should be declared to '[i]Her Majesties Inland Robbers[/i]'.

I ran a small online shop for a while, and some weeks I might make £30, other weeks I might make about £60/70, and on a good week I might make £100, very similar to the sort of money average band members would make [u]each[/u] from playing your average pub gig, but I hired an accountant to make sure that all was ok with my tax responsibilities.

Now please don't get all upset here, but how many of you paid bands are even registered, or paying any dues to the HMIR?

The only reason I ask is because just recently, I was offered a place in a band that is gigging at least twice a week, occasionally three times a week, and I would have been taking about £150 - £250 in my hand every week, that's around £7,800 - £13,000 per annum, and the first thing that struck me was that I will have to declare that amount of extra income.

Now lets be honest here, many of the bands who are not happy with bands playing for free, will probably be earning at least that amount, and the function bands who charge upwards of £1000 for a wedding of corporate event, will be earning even more.

So fine, play for money, but only criticise those who play for small amounts of for free, if we are a threat to your registered business, ie, Registered BAND, if you are not a registered business, then really we are all in the same boat, but do it for different reasons.

[Count Bassy]

[quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1350208604' post='1835711']
The only reason I ask is because just recently, I was offered a place in a band that is gigging at least twice a week, occasionally three times a week, and I would have been taking about £150 - £250 in my hand every week, that's around £7,800 - £13,000 per annum, and the first thing that struck me was that I will have to declare that amount of extra income.
[/quote]

But you could also claim any related expenses, and almost anything musical against that income. Obviously petrol/mileage, strings, rehearsal room costs, stage clothes, depreciation on capital costs (i.e. you're bass & rig, PC you use for musical things). Anything musical would also extend to CDs. If you practice at home could possibly claim for 'use of home as office'

I have a friend who was was shopped (we think) to HMRC about his playing in a ceilidh band. After HMRC interviewed him and did some quick sums they told him that he had a very expensive hobby.


On the original question raised, for myself, if it is a choice between playing for nothing or not playing at all then I'd play for nothing. It is a hobby after all, which I do for fun, and the whole aim is to get out and perform.

Musicians are one of the professions where they try to make a living doing what other people do for a hobby. No point moaning about it .."Twas ever thus and ever thus will be".

[JTUK]

I wouldn't play for nothing... . just does not really enter into the thinking.
My first question is 'how much'....?? and altho we make it as fun as possible, and it needs to be otherwise why do it,
it is better when you are valued and people go out of their way to look after you

As regards tax... it is upto the individual to take care of his earnings and I assume the others do exactly that on a self assessment.

[TimR]

[quote name='Count Bassy' timestamp='1350221127' post='1835883']
...

I have a friend who was was shopped (we think) to HMRC about his playing in a ceilidh band. After HMRC interviewed him and did some quick sums they told him that he had a very expensive hobby.

...
[/quote]

I do wonder if people playing for free realise how much they spend on gear, rehearsals, transport etc...

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1350221924' post='1835897']


I do wonder if people playing for free realise how much they spend on gear, rehearsals, transport etc...
[/quote]

I'm sure many don't, but how many hobbies are free..?

[redstriper]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1350221924' post='1835897']
I do wonder if people playing for free realise how much they spend on gear, rehearsals, transport etc...
[/quote]

No, we're all too stupid or rich to care

[BigRedX]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1350222688' post='1835916']
I'm sure many don't, but how many hobbies are free..?
[/quote]

IME most hobbies cost a lot more than playing bass in a band.

[thebrig]

[quote name='Count Bassy' timestamp='1350221127' post='1835883']
But you could also claim any related expenses, and almost anything musical against that income. Obviously petrol/mileage, strings, rehearsal room costs, stage clothes, depreciation on capital costs (i.e. you're bass & rig, PC you use for musical things). Anything musical would also extend to CDs. If you practice at home could possibly claim for 'use of home as office'
[/quote]
Yes I know mate, I've been self-employed for about 15 years off and on, but you still have to register with them, and fill out a tax return/self assessment each tax year.

But the point that I was trying to make is, if you are one of these higher-earning bands, that is being run as a money making concern, and paying your dues, then I salute you, and have some sympathy with you, if you are being undercut by bands playing the same venues for less or for free.
But if you just take the couple of hundred '[i]spondoolies[/i]' every gig, don't declare it ([i]and that's ok with me too[/i]), just don't moan about other bands playing for less, if you don't do things by the books either!