play for free

[flyfisher]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1350221924' post='1835897']
I do wonder if people playing for free realise how much they spend on gear, rehearsals, transport etc...
[/quote]

So what? If someone doesn't treat music as a job then it's a hobby/pastime/passion, call it what you will, and they are likely to spend as much spare cash on it as they can simply because it's an enjoyable (to them) alternative to the day job. Just like they do with other interests and holidays.

We all spend our disposable income on something so why single out playing music as something we ought to be getting a return on? Why shouldn't just the pleasure of it be enough?

Edited October 14, 2012 by flyfisher

[MrTaff]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1350221924' post='1835897']
I do wonder if people playing for free realise how much they spend on gear, rehearsals, transport etc...
[/quote]

Very little compared to what other hobbies cost,

for example I started racing an R1 this year, it's probably worked out about £500 a weekend with fees, tyres, petrol etc that's without the 9k the bike cost.

In comparrison the last free gig I did was aroud £20 in petrol & £12 for new strings, I've got less than 1k in bass gear, compared to racing bikes it's a very cheap hobby.

Edited October 14, 2012 by MrTaff

[TimR]

[quote name='redstriper' timestamp='1350222841' post='1835918']


No, we're all too stupid or rich to care
[/quote]

As I suspected.

[TimR]

I was only referring to HMRC comment that it was an expensive hobby.

Comparing it to motorsport is not exactly the same is it?

[TimR]

As I say, there's nothing wrong with playing for fun or hardly any money. Particularly just pub gigs. Just bear in mind that you can very easily commit yourselves to something that ends up bring very expensive.

How many of you playing for free are fully insured and PAT tested? Could become a very expensive hobby if someone gets injured (deafened?) or worse.

[flyfisher]

Now you're clutching at the scare-mongering straws. Such things are the venue's responsibility if there's no commercial transaction involved. How many people are insured for playing at a open-mic night or a kareoke evening? How many people have their laptop or phone chargers PAT tested for when they plug in at Starbucks?

Come on, let's be sensible about all this.

[TimR]

Yes, cause I can just see the brewery's insurance company saying, don't worry, someone just got electrocuted by your amp.

We'll pay.

Edited October 14, 2012 by TimR

[JTUK]

PLI is largely the venues issue but that isn't to say that bands should completely abstain.
Festivals, in particular are very keen on PAT and PLI...so you can knock yourself off that bill if you don't have them, IME.
If your light rigfalls over..?? who is liable, venue or band..?? grey area..?? maybe.

I can see hearing loss being an issue somewhere down the line... does the user claim against venue..most probably as it will be a cummalative effect so not any one band...but factory bosses are having to contend with this issue now... so I expect to see it at some point in the future, possibly, regarding venues..but maybe you would have to proove you worked there for 20 years or something..??

[TimR]

My house insurance covers me for non commercial legal stuff. But I suspect you've really got to show that no money changed hands and there was no intention of any money changing hands. Which in a band in a pub is going to be hard.

Edited October 14, 2012 by TimR

[TimR]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1350231280' post='1836044']
PLI is largely the venues issue but that isn't to say that bands should completely abstain.
Festivals, in particular are very keen on PAT and PLI...so you can knock yourself off that bill if you don't have them, IME.
If your light rigfalls over..?? who is liable, venue or band..?? grey area..?? maybe.

I can see hearing loss being an issue somewhere down the line... does the user claim against venue..most probably as it will be a cummalative effect so not any one band...but factory bosses are having to contend with this issue now... so I expect to see it at some point in the future, possibly, regarding venues..but maybe you would have to proove you worked there for 20 years or something..??
[/quote]

I've seen a person deafened in one ear due to careless use of a fader.

[Skol303]

Crikey… this thread is still rumbling on!?

Surely this debate is just about economics and market forces. I run a small business (a design agency) and like any business - including a professional band - we work in a market in which there will always be another company prepared to offer their services more cheaply - and yes, in some cases even for free.

Sometimes it's necessary for companies to do this in order to gain exposure and bolster their portfolio; sometimes they do it on the expectation of it leading to paid work in future. Does it mean we suffer as a result? No. We did it ourselves in the early days. But people now expect a certain a level of quality from our company and they understand the need of having to pay for it. If they want the cheapest option, we're not the company for them.

Ultimately, if you find yourself being undercut all too often, then you're either: 1) over-charging; 2) targeting the wrong market; or 3) don't offer a sufficiently high quality service. It has to be one of those three factors - that's economics.

If your band offers something worth paying for, then it shouldn't matter that other bands are operating for free. Otherwise the fault lies in one of the three factors I've listed above - it's not the fault of your competitors.

Not trying to preach here; just trying to be objective.

[swanbrook]

I pay my tax, I pay public liability insurance also have the gear insured separate to van insurance ( that one I don't mind as it cover all out gear no matter where it is ). The band is not set up as a business as we all pay out tax on self assessment.

[TimR]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1350232594' post='1836064']
Crikey… this thread is still rumbling on!?

Surely this debate is just about economics and market forces.
..
[/quote]

As I said a few pages ago. It isn't. It's not a free competitive market.

There are some bands out there whose members earn enough doing other things that they have no intention of ever getting paid.

You can't compete with that, no matter how you try. When a guy earning £30k+ in his office job 9-5 can afford to buy whatever PA, lighting, drum, guitar he wants. What can you do as a musician that's better? That the public will notice. Some of these guys are incredibly good.

[skidder652003]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1350236841' post='1836145']
As I said a few pages ago. It isn't. It's not a free competitive market.

There are some bands out there whose members earn enough doing other things that they have no intention of ever getting paid.

You can't compete with that, no matter how you try. When a guy earning £30k+ in his office job 9-5 can afford to buy whatever PA, lighting, drum, guitar he wants. What can you do as a musician that's better? That the public will notice. Some of these guys are incredibly good.
[/quote]

ive yet to meet a "free" band thats sh*t hot, week in, week out and if they were trhat good, wouldn't realise it and start demanding a fee for thier services, thats just fantasy IMO

[TimR]

[quote name='skidder652003' timestamp='1350240917' post='1836259']
ive yet to meet a "free" band thats sh*t hot, week in, week out and if they were trhat good, wouldn't realise it and start demanding a fee for thier services, thats just fantasy IMO
[/quote]

I think you're right. Unfortunately the converse is often true.

[chrismuzz]

I spend too much on equipment and petrol to be making an actual profit from music, so I don't declare it as it would be a waste of time

[flyfisher]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1350231316' post='1836046']
My house insurance covers me for non commercial legal stuff. But I suspect you've really got to show that no money changed hands and there was no intention of any money changing hands. Which in a band in a pub is going to be hard.
[/quote]

Surely the onus would be on the plaintiff to prove that money DID change hands . . . Which judging by the apparent popularity of playing for free might also be quite hard.

[The Dark Lord]

The who pays tax / should I pay tax question has been done to death on this forum.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1350231097' post='1836040']
Yes, cause I can just see the brewery's insurance company saying, don't worry, someone just got electrocuted by your amp.

We'll pay.
[/quote]

I suspect they, or their insurers, probably would. After all it was they that let in all the free playing amateurs in the first place

[redstriper]

There's more to life (and music) than the fee you get at the end

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ERbvKrH-GC4"]http://www.youtube.c...d&v=ERbvKrH-GC4[/url]

[chrismuzz]

[quote name='redstriper' timestamp='1350243869' post='1836355']
There's more to life (and music) than the fee you get at the end
[/quote]

Totally, it's a nice bonus though

[Dave Vader]

I have found that rather than paying for tickets to watch premiership football, i can nip down the park and watch a bunch of kids playing the same game for free.
I got a letter from Wayne Rooney telling me to stop supporting them as they were doing him out of a job,


</fatuousjoke>

[peteb]

The reason for insisting on being paid is not [b]just[/b] about money!

In a few weeks I’m playing at a blues club in the Cotswolds, which means half a day off work, a round trip of over 360 miles and a cheap hotel. Therefore I’m losing money as it’s costing me £50 in petrol and £20 for the room before I even buy a pint or any food when we’re getting paid £250 for a 4 piece band.

However, there is [b]no way I would do it without being paid[/b]. The reason I am doing it is because it will raise the band’s profile on a national circuit and I know it will be a good event. The promoter has invested in paying £600 for two bands (I understand that the headliners are on £350) and is expecting to make a decent profit on the night and therefore won’t scrimp on a few quid for promoting the night and will make a point of posting it on facebook, local gig guides, putting up posters, etc.

Last year I played in Nottingham with a different band where we were on the door take. We got there and the promoter hadn’t bothered to publicise it at all and no one knew that there was a band playing. But then again, he didn’t stand to lose money himself so why should he bother??

I don’t know a single decent band that would play a pub gig for nothing unless there was a good reason…….

Edited October 14, 2012 by peteb

[chrismuzz]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1350246173' post='1836390']
Last year I played in Nottingham with a different band where we were on the door take. We got there and the promoter hadn’t bothered to publicise it at all and no one knew that there was a band playing. But then again, he didn’t stand to lose money himself so why should he bother??….
[/quote]

That's shady man

I played a gig a few weeks ago[size=4] where the [font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]agreement was [color=#333333]£120 + 80% of door takings[/color][color=#333333] @ £3 entry. The place wasn't very full at all but we still walked away with £245 and got two more bookings and a hell of a lot of hype out of it! [/color][/font][/size]

[TimR]

[quote name='Dave Vader' timestamp='1350246073' post='1836388']
I have found that rather than paying for tickets to watch premiership football, i can nip down the park and watch a bunch of kids playing the same game for free.
I got a letter from Wayne Rooney telling me to stop supporting them as they were doing him out of a job,


</fatuousjoke>
[/quote]

I think that analgy doesn't stand up at all.

Try: I like football so much that I'm going to go into pubs and provide them with free satellite football so they don't have to keep paying Sky. All the equipment, programs and maintenance absolutely free, just so I can go down whenever I'm not doing anything else and watch with my mates.