garethfriend Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 The cause of all this frustration seems to be that venues don't differentiate between the hobbyists and the pros, a band is a band to most and therefore have the same value. Don't see how that is the fault of musicians - those that play for free or otherwise. I'm not sure this whole expecting bands to play for free thing is a big problem especially, it's nothing new for originals, on the covers front it's basically Darwinism - those venues that expect a professional job for free go out of business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 [quote name='slobluesine' timestamp='1342878702' post='1742285'] ... a gig is about music not shifting beer, or maybe i've got it all wrong [/quote] The only time a gig is not about shifting beer (or any other drinks) is when there is no bar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1343145205' post='1746037'] No. At the risk of sounding like a broken record the only reason for an originals band to play for free is because they want to. There are paying gigs out there for bands playing their own material. You will probably need to put in more effort to get those than you need to for the free gigs, but they do exist. Put on a show when you play. Make use of all your contacts. Get to know other bands in your genre. If your home town doesn't want to know then play somewhere else - if you're being paid you can afford it. However playing for free because you believe there is no other way to get gigs is just defeatist and all it shows is that you've already given up. [/quote] Given up on what? If earning a few bob isn't important to the band, why bother to jump through all those extra hoops you describe to get a paid gig? Who pays for all the time you would have to spend marketing the band, sending out flyers and/or demo CD/DVDs, finding venues outside your home town, emailing or phoning them and generally hustling to get a paid gig. Lots of extra hassle for relatively little reward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slobluesine Posted July 24, 2012 Author Share Posted July 24, 2012 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1343148040' post='1746126'] Given up on what? If earning a few bob isn't important to the band, why bother to jump through all those extra hoops you describe to get a paid gig? Who pays for all the time you would have to spend marketing the band, sending out flyers and/or demo CD/DVDs, finding venues outside your home town, emailing or phoning them and generally hustling to get a paid gig. Lots of extra hassle for relatively little reward. [/quote] bear in mind promoters, landlords, agents, managers and the like have zero respect for musicians. some of the time it's the green eyed monster but more often they just see musicians as suckers. i've been trying to get the sucker tattoo off my forehead for years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1343148040' post='1746126'] Given up on what? If earning a few bob isn't important to the band, why bother to jump through all those extra hoops you describe to get a paid gig? Who pays for all the time you would have to spend marketing the band, sending out flyers and/or demo CD/DVDs, finding venues outside your home town, emailing or phoning them and generally hustling to get a paid gig. Lots of extra hassle for relatively little reward. [/quote] The poster I was replying to was bemoaning the fact that "it's almost impossible to get anywhere in an originals band nowadays." What I was pointing out was that it is still possible to do gigs and get paid - you just have to adjust your attitudes and work a bit harder. Fair enough if you don't want to put in that extra effort, but then don't go moaning that you can't get any paying gigs. Whether you think that extra effort is worth it is entirely up to each individual band and musician to decide. However all musicians need to acknowledge that simple act of playing music in a band is insufficient to guarantee being paid to do it. Successful bands playing their own material might make it look as though a big part of it has been that they were lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time, but you can bet that they worked really hard to make sure that they were in that place at that time and made the most of the opportunities they were given. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottomE Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 Theres no right or wrong answer is there? As usual it "depends". Out of the many gigs i have played only a handful have been for free. Thats my choice. I decided a long time ago that my effort was worth some reward. I have missed gigs at festivals and other places where they expect you to do it "for the soul" - sorry i find that patronising as well as the claim that its for "art". Bollox to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 [quote name='slobluesine' timestamp='1343151148' post='1746202'] bear in mind promoters, landlords, agents, managers and the like have zero respect for musicians. some of the time it's the green eyed monster but more often they just see musicians as suckers. i've been trying to get the sucker tattoo off my forehead for years [/quote] That's such a dated attitude. These days you're only taken for a sucker if you let yourself be. The vibe I'm getting from your posts, is that you can't be bothered to put in the effort required to get the gigs you believe you deserve, so you'll settle for having a bit of a moan on an internet forum instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gust0o Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 I think BRX has nailed it here. Failing that, if you're still struggling, try giving head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slobluesine Posted July 24, 2012 Author Share Posted July 24, 2012 [quote name='Gust0o' timestamp='1343153165' post='1746248'] I think BRX has nailed it here. Failing that, if you're still struggling, try giving head. [/quote] another good reason to get this sucker tattoo of my head Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojo Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 Musicians don't play for free, they in fact pay to play, as more often than not they've spent on gear , travel and sometimes rehearsal costs etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gust0o Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 [quote name='slobluesine' timestamp='1343153725' post='1746258'] another good reason to get this sucker tattoo of my head [/quote] Boom boom! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 I think we have missed one or two gigs this summer that might have been of value to us from a PR POV but we couldn't get agreement from ALL in the band to do them so we passed. You can spend an awful lot of time doing free dates so I'd suggest you set aside 3 dates per year MAX. 3 is too much for us, and we ask for exes for a charity bash after we look at the set-up VERY carefully. We have noticed a few venues very keen to host these bashes but wonder if they contribute anything else... ..say, from the all-day beer sales..??? I don't really agree with free shows as I think if you don't rate yourselves worthy of a fee, why should anyone else..?? but it is not as simple as that. By the end of September, we will have done quite few festivals and been paid at all of them....and some are amongst our better paying gigs so not pub money.so I struggle with the 'free' idea, to be honest. So, I concur with the earlier post that in an ideal world nobody would pay for free but some do..for their own reasons... just don't ask me to do the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan_da_man Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1343145205' post='1746037'] No. At the risk of sounding like a broken record the only reason for an originals band to play for free is because they want to. There are paying gigs out there for bands playing their own material. You will probably need to put in more effort to get those than you need to for the free gigs, but they do exist. Put on a show when you play. Make use of all your contacts. Get to know other bands in your genre. If your home town doesn't want to know then play somewhere else - if you're being paid you can afford it. However playing for free because you believe there is no other way to get gigs is just defeatist and all it shows is that you've already given up. [/quote] This relates to what I quoted about supply and demand - there are hundreds of other originals bands out there so the minute I say "Are we getting paid?", the landlord will respond "No. Piss off 'cause we'll get another band instead". And more to the point - why would they pay you? They've never heard of you, don't know what you sound like until you send them a demo, have no idea what your stage show is like and can't guarantee X amount of people will come through the door. Supply and demand baby! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Stan_da_man' timestamp='1343230771' post='1747461'] This relates to what I quoted about supply and demand - there are hundreds of other originals bands out there so the minute I say "Are we getting paid?", the landlord will respond "No. Piss off 'cause we'll get another band instead". And more to the point - why would they pay you? They've never heard of you, don't know what you sound like until you send them a demo, have no idea what your stage show is like and can't guarantee X amount of people will come through the door. Supply and demand baby! [/quote] But the whole point is not to be just like any other originals band. Have something that sets you apart that makes your band worth booking (and paying) over the others. Otherwise if you don't think your band is worth anything nor will anyone else and then you've failed before you've even started. Apart from a handful of gigs we did for free during our first year in existence my originals band Dick Venom & The Terrortones get paid every time we play. At the very least we get travelling expenses plus food and drink. And do you know why? Because we ask for it and return we put on a great show and those who are booking us know that there is no band that will be a substitute for a Dick Venom gig. I mean why put on 4 dull blokes in t-shirts jeans and trainers, playing nondescript "rock" even if they are free, when for a reasonable fee you can have this: [IMG]http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n249/BigRedX/208909_498306303518448_292283083_n.jpg[/IMG] Edited July 25, 2012 by BigRedX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 You have to work out where you want to be and how you can get there... Some bands can do this easily and quickly and naturally as they just have that 'thing'... others might have to plan somewhat, but you should know where the end route is. If you are playing covers, then a few thousand £'s is as much as you can expect to get...and you'll likely need an angle for that level..maybe a few 'stars' names, maybe a sorted function/review type show.. . Tribute bands can get there..but that takes a premeditated route and that isn't for us anyway. Original's have the better route but you must bring something to the party...and the haul is likely to be slower as you build up a fan base... You can intersperse originals with your covers set but you still need to be different.. and the songs need to work. Nobody wants to book the same act over and over which is the mistake that pub bands make when the go for the 80's classics... ho hum, so does everyone else..!! so where do you get the premium from...?? A common theme of mine in all things musical is that you need some 'personality' in what you do..and what the band does...and many things might constitute this, but you need something...you definitelty don't need to sound like someone else....or else you'll never get out of those pubs. But if you are seliing, someone has to be buying...so attention to getting these two close is paramount.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark Lord Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 [quote name='mushers' timestamp='1342878319' post='1742270'] i shall be playing for free this year at least 2 gigs sorry if it pisses some people off but i dont care [/quote] Well, you should care. There are musicians who perform for a living and depend upon being paid for gigs. These are generally the higher-quality acts who provide pro entertainment. Every time some of us play for free ....... we spoil the market for other who [u]need [/u]to be paid. It's not that difficult to get paid gigs. You won't get a fortune, but you will get paid if you have a decent enough act and go to the correct places. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earbrass Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 [quote name='mushers' timestamp='1342878319' post='1742270'] i shall be playing for free this year at least 2 gigs sorry if it pisses some people off but i dont care [/quote] [quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1349703496' post='1829285'] Well, you should care. There are musicians who perform for a living and depend upon being paid for gigs. These are generally the higher-quality acts who provide pro entertainment. Every time some of us play for free ....... we spoil the market for other who need to be paid. [/quote] I will never feel guilty about playing for free. I made my career choices and "pro" musicians have made theirs. One of the benefits of my choice is having enough money to subsidise my hobbies - and that has included playing gigs in bands for free. If that causes issues for those "needing" to get paid for doing the same, it's up to them to provide something so much better than what's on offer for free that people will pay the extra for it. If they can't do that, they are in the wrong business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark Lord Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 [quote name='Earbrass' timestamp='1349706733' post='1829357'] I will never feel guilty about playing for free. I made my career choices and "pro" musicians have made theirs. One of the benefits of my choice is having enough money to subsidise my hobbies - and that has included playing gigs in bands for free. If that causes issues for those "needing" to get paid for doing the same, it's up to them to provide something so much better than what's on offer for free that people will pay the extra for it. If they can't do that, they are in the wrong business. [/quote] That sounds very selfish to me. But, as you say, you are free to be as selfish as you wish ..... unfortunately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earbrass Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 [quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1349707656' post='1829374'] That sounds very selfish to me. But, as you say, you are free to be as selfish as you wish ..... unfortunately. [/quote] I don't see why it's any more selfish than "pro" musicians expecting the rest of us to abstain from doing what we enjoy so as to leave the field clear for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 (edited) Qute a few beer festivals this year where the venue/pub has a lot of land and put a lot of effort into the infrastructure..marquees, generator, stage, P.A and extra parking with all the costs involved...but somehow, the bands are expected to play for free so they get the event they pay for. I can understand that 10 bands over the weekend will be costly but those bands need to be popular enough to draw the crowds or they aren't any use to man or beast. My take is... if everyone is working for free and it is for charity... then I'll listen, otherwise we don't even think about it but Bands paying for free is PITA... We were talking about the going rate just the other day and a worthwhile band should be £70 a skull..as the gent put it..but if you can't put a value on your services why should you be valued by anyone..??? Edited October 8, 2012 by JTUK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Dave Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 3 questions for me. 1) Do I place a value on my time and aquired skills...... Yes 2) Do I want a fair share if someone else - ie a promoter or landlord - makes money off my efforts.......... Yes 3) Do I give enough of a sh*t about young bands who need the money to not play gigs for free and possibly take their paid gig away by doing so..... Yes Do I do fundraisers or Charity shows?? Of course - makes me happy to do so , though I won't go anywhere near the Help for Heroes stuff that keeps cropping up whereby bands play for free but the landlord gives 'a percentage' of the bar take to the cause. What percentage would that be then?? Fcuk that. I've also done headline type things for free so that young bands could have the support slots . We often have young bands support us and we always make sure they get a fair few quid out of it. There are those who say they simply believe in free entertainment and play for nothing as a result.. OK - let's see you give up your sky dish then then you'll have even more time to steal other folks copyrights by ilegally downloading. There are also those who are simply not good enough to merit being paid. I expect if I were in that category I might be tempted to find myself a nice little moral wall to hide behind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thumperbob 2002 Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Why should I be bothered that someone else does a gig for free? Will not affect me at the least- any band worth their salt will always charge ( ignoring the odd charity gig ) Bands that play for free will not be worth worrying about and will no doubt make us look very good indeed. For the original circuit this is different though, where from time to time you have to pay to play - definite benefits there though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrig Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I think that we all need to get this into perspective. Some pubs get extra punters through the door because there is a band on, but a lot of pubs who have bands, don’t get any extra punters at all. I was in a pub only last week who used to have live music regularly, so I asked the manager why he no longer does, and he said, "[i]there was hardly any extra money going over the bar, so why should I pay out £200/300 for a band, and have no extra punters at all[/i], and I had no answer to it. On the other hand, if he was to turn around to me and ask, "[i]would your band play here for nothing, but the band and your partners would be ok for drinks (within reason) all night[/i]", then I would probably be tempted, after all, it’s a night out for the WAGS, a free rehearsal for the band, and more importantly, the buzz of playing to a live audience, regardless of its size. Now before some of you say that if we were any good, we should demand money, it’s not quite as simple as that, we are decent enough, but I know many exceptionally good bands locally, who are struggling to get gigs because there just aren't enough pubs doing live music any more, and those who do, tend to stick to the bands they know, and pay so little, that it’s hardly worth bothering about anyway. On the other hand, if a venue is charging for admission, then the band should definitely get paid, but if the venue is not charging for admission, and it doesn't really benefit from extra punters and revenue, then why shouldn't a band play for fun? I know a lot of you guys and gals are fantastic musicians, and play in great bands, and are getting gigs all the time, but you have to accept that there are different levels, and we all have a right to play for free, if that is what is required to get the occasional gig. It would be interesting to find out how many BC’ers are actually in bands, and if not, why not? Is it because it is getting increasingly harder to get gigs, so don’t bother any more? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul torch Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I don't bitch about amateur graphic designers doing jobs for free (there's plenty of them on this forum) it hasn't stopped me from earning a decent crust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Dave Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 [quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1349712408' post='1829481'] we all have a right to play for free, [/quote] That's true , but with it comes a responsibility to ask ourselves whether we should. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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