mushers Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 [quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1349703496' post='1829285'] Well, you should care. There are musicians who perform for a living and depend upon being paid for gigs. These are generally the higher-quality acts who provide pro entertainment. Every time some of us play for free ....... we spoil the market for other who [u]need [/u]to be paid. It's not that difficult to get paid gigs. You won't get a fortune, but you will get paid if you have a decent enough act and go to the correct places. [/quote] no reason why i should care at all i only played once this year in total in a pub that rarely has bands on at all, we packed the place out i counted at least 8 of our pals and 3 old gits propping up the bar my daughters band however (all aged 13) played over 5 gigs this year for free playing at packed school fetes etc but i thought the point of this thread was a moan about people playing for free at ticketed or profit making events and not at forcing the likes of me to only play in my own home Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 (edited) [quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1349712408' post='1829481'] I think that we all need to get this into perspective. Some pubs get extra punters through the door because there is a band on, but a lot of pubs who have bands, don’t get any extra punters at all. I was in a pub only last week who used to have live music regularly, so I asked the manager why he no longer does, and he said, "[i]there was hardly any extra money going over the bar, so why should I pay out £200/300 for a band, and have no extra punters at all[/i], and I had no answer to it. On the other hand, if he was to turn around to me and ask, "[i]would your band play here for nothing, but the band and your partners would be ok for drinks (within reason) all night[/i]", then I would probably be tempted, after all, it’s a night out for the WAGS, a free rehearsal for the band, and more importantly, the buzz of playing to a live audience, regardless of its size. [/quote] [color=#222222]You are touching on a couple of points here![/color] [color=#222222]First of all, the landlord needs to ask himself a few questions! If he is paying out £300 for a band and getting no extra punters he is either not promoting his gigs properly and/or getting the wrong bands and probably in competition with another live music pub that does it much better or is in a better location.[/color] [color=#222222]However, pub bands do need to realise that we are in a recession and that you are not guaranteed to get the same audiences that we were used to a few years ago, at least around these parts in the frozen north! I can see it getting to the stage where bands take smaller fees with a bonus if you get a certain number of punters in on the night (the trouble is that many landlords will take the p*** on this if you give them half a chance) or a bucket going around, etc.[/color] [color=#222222]One thing that I do know is that you play for free, landlords will assume that you are totally without value and do nothing to promote the gig, etc. If a landlord has to pay a reasonably significant sum to a band, he will go to great efforts to recoup his investment. The same goes for the band getting the door receipts to be paid. I always insist on a guaranteed minimum (even if it is only £100) otherwise you will find that there will be no posters up or promotion at all…..[/color] [quote name='Dr.Dave' timestamp='1349713008' post='1829493'] That's true , but with it comes a responsibility to ask ourselves whether we should. [/quote] Absolutely! Edited October 8, 2012 by peteb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingBollock Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 (edited) Or hobby bands that demand payment are worse for pro bands than those who play for free. In these times, when cash is scarce, instead of buying a bottle of vodka from Aldi and staying in, someone might be more tempted to go out to see a band if it's for free. You can go out and see a couple of local bands for free and still have money for a ticket to see a pro band, this might help keep the Pub open too. Hobbyists charging are eating into the money that people might need to go see a pro band... If your band isn't getting the gigs it thinks it deserves and blaming it on bands not charging, perhaps your band isn't so much better than the free bands as it thinks it is? Edited October 8, 2012 by KingBollock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul torch Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 [quote name='KingBollock' timestamp='1349714911' post='1829523'] If your band isn't getting the gigs it thinks it deserves and blaming it on bands not charging, perhaps your band isn't so much better than the free bands as it thinks it is? [/quote] this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Simple economics around her are something like this.. Venue has to sell the equivalent of 200 pints per night to pay an band £300..and if they have security, maybe that is more..depends if that is sorely on the music night. In my town of around 130,000 there can be 5 regular town venues with recognised bands..and then any number of other efforts. There are only 2 fully regular and recognised venues/pubs that all the better bands in the county would acknowledge... altho you could sub-divide the county into 3 or 4 regions. These venues have worked very hard over a long period..18 months plus, to get where they are now..which is simply to be mostly in a position to book..AND PAY.. for any band on the circuit. They are in the position to pick and choose the bands that will draw and therefore perpetuate the whole process with a degree of certainty. If any bands offer to play these places for free, they'd get laughed at..the standard is higher and you need to convince you are worth booking...but by the same token, the venue isn't going to even look at you if you haven't got a decent pitch and everything else to comvince him you'll sell 200 plus pints..at least..!! I understand pubs/venues putting down their fees..or trying to... but no punter should mind 30p a pint going on for music nights. You get what you pay for... and that extra can keep the standard and fees up, hopefully. I am against more music venues if it waters down the whole set-up..ditto cheap licensing. I think there are too many bands already chasing gigs and too many of those forces some of them to desperately seek gigs via any method..including playing for free. They should make PLI and PAT compulsory and also a mimimum electrical standard for venues..not make it easier to bypass these useful requirements. Or, ban all bands who can't read from playing unless they pass their pratical Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingBollock Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Well, I wouldn't play any venue unless I was being paid £10,000 per hour. So I am obviously a better musician than you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swanbrook Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 [quote name='mushers' timestamp='1349713361' post='1829498'] no reason why i should care at all i only played once this year in total in a pub that rarely has bands on at all, we packed the place out i counted at least 8 of our pals and 3 old gits propping up the bar my daughters band however (all aged 13) played over 5 gigs this year for free playing at packed school fetes etc but i thought the point of this thread was a moan about people playing for free at ticketed or profit making events and not at forcing the likes of me to only play in my own home [/quote] No one is forcing you to play at home, but if I went into your day job and told them I would work for free then you would be pissed off. Chance are I would do a worse job than you but if your boss was stupid enough to let me work for free then his fault. Bottom line is I don't do small pubs, so it really doesn't bother me. But I got to this point by breaking my nads putting in the time and gigs. I have no time for the attitude of no extra punters ! If a bar gives you a date then make it a gig ! At one time it cost a fortune to create a buzz with posters and time spent putting them up all around town. Now it's a few clicks on Facebook and twitter. Make it happen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Dave Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 We sometimes play for a grand plus , we also play for £80. That's at a tiny bar that can barely squeeze us and 40 people in and it's all they can afford. After petrol money that's maybe a 20 spot a piece. None of us are short of a 20 spot. We do it because we love playing there and the punters and management love having us. Accepting money has nothing to do with 'greed'. Suppose I broke a bass string that night , Mart punctured a drum skin and Rodders guitar lead went tonto. That would effectively be pay to play for us. Another venue we play - we take a lesser fee than we might because they let us have practise space. There are many ways to be 'paid'. We live in a world that primarily values our skills and products by giving us money or by trading services and products. Our precious , precious time has a value far beyond any amount of cash , but it does at least recognise that we give of our time and skills. Don't anyone ever sell yourself short. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 [quote name='KingBollock' timestamp='1349719040' post='1829599'] Well, I wouldn't play any venue unless I was being paid £10,000 per hour. So I am obviously a better musician than you. [/quote] Funnily enough, I know a player who has probably earnt that much per hour or gig and they would be very very well known on a forum like this. I bet half the bands here do one of their numbers at least... but you wouldn't put them in the top 5 of local players at what they do...prorbaly nowhere near, in fact Go figure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mushers Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 (edited) [quote name='swanbrook' timestamp='1349720082' post='1829625'] No one is forcing you to play at home, but if I went into your day job and told them I would work for free then you would be pissed off. Chance are I would do a worse job than you but if your boss was stupid enough to let me work for free then his fault. Bottom line is I don't do small pubs, so it really doesn't bother me. But I got to this point by breaking my nads putting in the time and gigs. I have no time for the attitude of no extra punters ! If a bar gives you a date then make it a gig ! At one time it cost a fortune to create a buzz with posters and time spent putting them up all around town. Now it's a few clicks on Facebook and twitter. Make it happen [/quote] everybody likes to have a go at something that could be fun or rewarding outside of their day job for me its bass i gave up playing full time a long long time ago, for some its DIY im in the building game but you wont see me starting a thread on a forum everytime i see someone putting up some shelves for their gran or mates ....or do i edit : how exactly did you break your nads getting to this point ? maybe a few free gigs or some with reduced fee to get yourself or band known ? i bet its even harder for youngsters these days to get anywhere near where you are Edited October 8, 2012 by mushers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironside1966 Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 To all those who thinks it, a sin for band to play for free, Is it fair that some bands\ musicians under cut pros because they don't pay tax on the income Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1349717194' post='1829561'] Simple economics around her are something like this.. Venue has to sell the equivalent of 200 pints per night to pay an band £300..and if they have security, maybe that is more..depends if that is sorely on the music night. In my town of around 130,000 there can be 5 regular town venues with recognised bands..and then any number of other efforts. There are only 2 fully regular and recognised venues/pubs that all the better bands in the county would acknowledge... altho you could sub-divide the county into 3 or 4 regions. These venues have worked very hard over a long period..18 months plus, to get where they are now..which is simply to be mostly in a position to book..AND PAY.. for any band on the circuit. They are in the position to pick and choose the bands that will draw and therefore perpetuate the whole process with a degree of certainty. If any bands offer to play these places for free, they'd get laughed at..the standard is higher and you need to convince you are worth booking...but by the same token, the venue isn't going to even look at you if you haven't got a decent pitch and everything else to comvince him you'll sell 200 plus pints..at least..!! I understand pubs/venues putting down their fees..or trying to... but no punter should mind 30p a pint going on for music nights. You get what you pay for... and that extra can keep the standard and fees up, hopefully. I am against more music venues if it waters down the whole set-up..ditto cheap licensing. I think there are too many bands already chasing gigs and too many of those forces some of them to desperately seek gigs via any method..including playing for free. They should make PLI and PAT compulsory and also a mimimum electrical standard for venues..not make it easier to bypass these useful requirements. Or, ban all bands who can't read from playing unless they pass their pratical [/quote] Good post - apart from your last statement because if every band had to read there would be a lot of good bands round here who wouldn't be able to gig! [quote name='Dr.Dave' timestamp='1349720217' post='1829628'] We sometimes play for a grand plus , we also play for £80. That's at a tiny bar that can barely squeeze us and 40 people in and it's all they can afford. After petrol money that's maybe a 20 spot a piece. None of us are short of a 20 spot. We do it because we love playing there and the punters and management love having us. Accepting money has nothing to do with 'greed'. Suppose I broke a bass string that night , Mart punctured a drum skin and Rodders guitar lead went tonto. That would effectively be pay to play for us. Another venue we play - we take a lesser fee than we might because they let us have practise space. There are many ways to be 'paid'. We live in a world that primarily values our skills and products by giving us money or by trading services and products. Our precious , precious time has a value far beyond any amount of cash , but it does at least recognise that we give of our time and skills. Don't anyone ever sell yourself short. [/quote] Spot on again....! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swanbrook Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 [quote name='ironside1966' timestamp='1349722497' post='1829688'] To all those who thinks it, a sin for band to play for free, Is it fair that some bands\ musicians under cut pros because they don't pay tax on the income [/quote] 22 years playing live and 22 years paying my tax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lefrash Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 [quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1349703496' post='1829285'] Well, you should care. There are musicians who perform for a living and depend upon being paid for gigs. These are generally the higher-quality acts who provide pro entertainment. Every time some of us play for free ....... we spoil the market for other who [u]need [/u]to be paid. [/quote] IMO thats nonsense. And its no way selfish for hobbyists to play for free. If a player chooses to become pro, its up to him to find the paid gigs. If he can't find any, then he needs to get a different job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swanbrook Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 [quote name='mushers' timestamp='1349721345' post='1829654'] everybody likes to have a go at something that could be fun or rewarding outside of their day job for me its bass i gave up playing full time a long long time ago, for some its DIY im in the building game but you wont see me starting a thread on a forum everytime i see someone putting up some shelves for their gran or mates ....or do i edit : how exactly did you break your nads getting to this point ? maybe a few free gigs or some with reduced fee to get yourself or band known ? i bet its even harder for youngsters these days to get anywhere near where you are [/quote] I might spend 20-30 hrs a week getting gigs and maybe 6-9 playing them. We do 4 charity gigs a year we try and choose a different cause each year but they are the only gigs I have ever done and not taken money. We do the very odd pub gig where we wouldn't get the same as we would for playing a wedding but I use these as showcase gigs and the last one I got 4 bookings from it so it basically made me 8k that night. There is a lot of back ground work but it pays off and I get to be a full time musician because if it. On the building side if things, a local woman who would not pay a tiler to do her bathroom got a doggy git to do it. He tiled of the wall paper and when she was in the bath a tile fell and cracked her head open. .... Pay peanuts ya get monkeys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 (edited) [quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1349703496' post='1829285'] Well, you should care. There are musicians who perform for a living and depend upon being paid for gigs. These are generally the higher-quality acts who provide pro entertainment. Every time some of us play for free ....... we spoil the market for other who [u]need [/u]to be paid. [/quote] How about if we applied this sort of logic to other forms of paid work? Every time you clean your own home . . . . you spoil the market for cleaners who [u]need[/u] to be paid. Every time you change your own strings . . . . you spoil the market for luthiers who [u]need[/u] to be paid. Every time you decorate your own home . . . . you spoil the market for painters who [u]need[/u] to be paid. Every time you [[i]insert job example here[/i]] . . . . you spoil the market for someone who [u]needs[/u] to be paid. That's life - get used to it. Edited October 8, 2012 by flyfisher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scalpy Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Actors fell in to the trap of practising their art for free for all the reasons above and slowly and surely the possibilities of them getting paid have all but disappeared. No community theatre I play for earns a penny for selling thousands of tickets. Teachers were encouraged to lay on extra-curricular activities for free and they fell for it, believing it was "vocational". Now, posts for performing arts or sports demand you provide those opportunities for the same wage as another classroom teacher. If you think you're doing a professional job, get paid for it. If you don't, you erode the opportunity to get paid for everyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1349725548' post='1829753'] How about if we applied this sort of logic to other forms of paid work? Every time you clean your own home . . . . you spoil the market for cleaners who [u]need[/u] to be paid. Every time you change your own strings . . . . you spoil the market for luthiers who [u]need[/u] to be paid. Every time you decorate your own home . . . . you spoil the market for painters who [u]need[/u] to be paid. Every time you [[i]insert job example here[/i]] . . . . you spoil the market for someone who [u]needs[/u] to be paid. That's life - get used to it. [/quote] Musicians making home studios for their stuff and doing pro studios out of their money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swanbrook Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Hmmm yea but most do it in the hope that what they create is going to make them money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark Lord Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1349725548' post='1829753'] How about if we applied this sort of logic to other forms of paid work? Every time you clean your own home . . . . you spoil the market for cleaners who [u]need[/u] to be paid. Every time you change your own strings . . . . you spoil the market for luthiers who [u]need[/u] to be paid. Every time you decorate your own home . . . . you spoil the market for painters who [u]need[/u] to be paid. Every time you [[i]insert job example here[/i]] . . . . you spoil the market for someone who [u]needs[/u] to be paid. That's life - get used to it. [/quote] The more of us who play for free - just to be able to play - the lower we all get paid ..... hobbyists and pros. If you want to miss the point, be my guest. Just sayin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingBollock Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 (edited) Those who play for free won't get paid any less, so why should they give a toss? They just make those who think they should be paid prove they're worth being paid. Edited October 8, 2012 by KingBollock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 For me, it's simple..you want a decent job, you pay our price. If we don't agree, get someone else..and there are plenty around. Bands doing stuff for free wont really impact on what I do as it would be chalk and cheese. If they could charge for it, then they probably most likely would.. read..try stopping them.. Biggest case round here..would be a few name festivals that want to employ local bands FREE and think they are doing them a favour by putting them on a decent stage..and more fool you fo going for that one, IMO. Plus most pubs want a beer festival of sorts and some might even do it quite well...but the one thing they will scimp on... is the bands or hide behind a charity thing and that means all the acts don't get paid All this is fine..but the bar staff gets paid as does everyone else...etc etc .. I would initially support this idea to get something started but a recent festival did everything right but get a rosta of decent bands...IMO To put that right would cost them a few thousand and they may decide that is too risky..but then the outlay on everything else was big anyway. And the saturday night which should have been slamming.. was not so well attended. It wasn't that the people didn't turn up... they just didn't stay much past 10.. ??? My view would have been that they committed a large sum, why bottle out at the last hurdle...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 I learned something very early on in my gigging career. We had just started the band and were very keen to get gigs. Probably a bit too keen. We were asked to play a local gig for repairs and modernisation to the church. It's all for charity what's our best price for a dinner and dance. We dropped from £650 to £300. Our thoughts were, we're not pros, we enjoy what we do and it's for charity. What we didn't factor in: 1. Expensive hotel, no free drinks, the beer was over £4 a pint, soft drinks similar. 2. The tickets were £50 each! 3. The auction of promises done before we started playing made £10k. 4. We arrived at 5pm to set up and supposed to start playing at 10:00. Due to the auction we started at 11:30 and played till 1:00am So we sat round for five and a half hours drinking expensive drinks to get paid £40 each and play for 1:30. Never again. If you play for free, at some point something similar will happen to you and you'll wake up in the morning feeling a little bit annoyed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismuzz Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 In the originals bands I've been in, generally we get paid anywhere from zero upwards, usually a measly £30 for the whole band (is this normal?) only ever get more if we get a cut of the door takings, or organise our own event. With the cover band, we did our first gig for free, our second for £50... And now we usually ask for a minimum of £200 (whether we get that or not varies, but our highest fee so far has been £245). We did do a charity event for free this year though, but they fed us In my opinion, with cover bands, you should always get paid. You're usually playing songs that the punters know, like, will dance to, and will most likely buy more drinks (especially if you have a frontman who tells everyone to get pissed and headbang with them ). So they WILL be making money from you. So if you don't get paid you're usually being ripped off. With original band you have to be pretty well established before you will be paid. I don't think this is fair as most original bands work harder but that's just the way it is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 My brother's band loaded the van, drove 50 miles to do a free gig. Got to the pub to find another band set up. The landlord had booked another band and not bothered telling my brother. Luckily they're not in it for the money and enjoy loading all their gear into the van and just driving round for a bit on a Saturday night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.