play for free

[JTUK]

[quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1349789850' post='1830541']
Dark Lord, although we have different views on this subject, it's almost contradictory of me to say, that I agree and sympathise with your comments, and thanks for recognising the fact that I am not one of the "I don't give a toss" brigade, because I am looking at the argument from both sides.

I sympathise with the guys in your band who are going through hard times, but I can honestly say that on 9th October 2011, due to arthritis, I had an operation on my thumb in which they put in a prosthesis, unfortunately it was not successful and had to have it removed on 16th June 2012. also I have arthritis in other parts of my body, and a total of six prolapsed discs in my back, so today marks exactly [u]one year of being off sick[/u] (that's why I spend so much time on Basschat).

Since February, I have been on £68 a week statutory pay, and I still have three years of my mortgage to pay, so I'm not in a position where I want to, or can afford to play for nothing, but for the reasons I stated earlier, we are a decent enough band, but we just don't seem to be able to break onto the local circuit.

I can't walk more than 100 yards or so, without having to stop for a rest, and I need a stick a lot of the time now, but please believe me when I say I do not feel sorry for myself, because I spent years, bringing seriously ill patients, some only babies to hospital from all parts of the UK, so I know that I am one of the lucky ones, but apart from my family, playing bass in a band situation is the biggest enjoyment I get, even if when we do gig, it's painful during each set, but the adrenalin carries me through.
[/quote]

Good post

[JTUK]

These so called prestigous venues...?? maybe they are the ones that pay well..do things properly and look after the band with a decent sound crew, stage and light rig,,plus a rider..??
well, they have to work financially as well...
If we are offered those gigs... we have to understand that the tickets start from £8 and that we need to sell 400...so to invite in a 'support' band you are are looking to pay them their best best pub fee..in all probability, and for their part, sell 100 plus tickets.
You would be surprised ...if you offer that deal,,,,how many bands turn it down.

Edited October 10, 2012 by JTUK

[Doddy]

[quote name='chrismuzz' timestamp='1349774759' post='1830228']
In the originals bands I've been in, generally we get paid anywhere from zero upwards, usually a measly £30 for the whole band (is this normal?) only ever get more if we get a cut of the door takings, or organise our own event.

With the cover band, we did our first gig for free, our second for £50... And now we usually ask for a minimum of £200 (whether we get that or not varies, but our highest fee so far has been £245). We did do a charity event for free this year though, but they fed us
[/quote]
Picking up on a couple of points.....
£30 for the whole band? I find that maybe more insulting than playing for nothing. If I know that the gig is worth no money
then I can make my mind up if I want to do it or not based on other things,but if there is money involved then they can at least
pay a reasonable amount.If I knew that that was all that the band would be paid,I wouldn't even think about it-it would be a 'no'.

With regards to doing the first gig for free,again this is something that I wouldn't do. The last time I ran a band,our first gig was two
nights in the same club for over a grand-this then became a regular gig for us. I then spent a week phoning venues and was getting
gigs for a minimum of £400. The only time I struggled was with local venues who pulled faces even when we played for less,just so
friends and family could come see us sometimes.Even when we packed the place they wouldn't up the money because other bands
(many of whom we knew) would play for less.
I've been out of that band for a while now,but I still get some phone calls from venues offering us gigs for decent money.

[gjones]

[quote name='slobluesine' timestamp='1342873279' post='1742144']
anyone else here totally pissed off with musicians who play for free?
[/quote]

Yes!

But if you pay peanuts you get monkeys........and probably end up going out of business.

Edited October 10, 2012 by gjones

[KK Jale]

I have played for nearly free... a long time ago... drinks, maybe a cab fare.

Last few years I've taken things more practically. Band A and band B don't go out for less than a few hundred, generally. And it's not straight covers... band A is a rootsy psychedelic affair with half originals, band B is obscure jazz/blues instrumentals. Guess I'm lucky in that I've fallen in with a bunch of hard-bitten (yet still hilarious) pros.

Feel sorry for my flatmate drummer, who's on the originals circuit (doing americana). Last week they went 100 miles to support a kinda-ex-name band for £40... all in. And I was so pissed off, as I know some of this ex-name band, and I wrote them a very nice email asking as a special favour if the support could borrow a tiny bit of backline to save them taking two vehicles all that way, and told them they were good sensible chaps who wouldn't mess with settings or anything, and got a flat no. Now I fully understand being careful with gear, but these are guys who are living off the goodwill of the '70s get-it-together-in-the-country vibe. Their sadly deceased leader would have handed you the dobro off his back. How things change.

Edited October 10, 2012 by KK Jale

[KingBollock]

Money causes too many problems that I wouldn't want to have to deal with in the hobby I do for FUN. I don't want to have to worry that we're not charging enough, making us look crap, or charging too much, making us look arrogant. I don't want to have to worry about the singer wanting 2 cuts because he also plays a guitar, or a drummer wanting more because he has to carry so much, or because he has further to travel. I don't want to stress about being stiffed by the venue at the end of every gig. And I don't want to have to cope with paying tax and stuff. And if I leave all this to another band member, I don't want to have to worry that he or she is doing it properly.

I have a few hobbies that I enjoy and have to pay for and don't expect anything back from. There are hobbies I would like to do but they're expensive, so I can't, I just have to accept that. I am far from well off and having to travel to gigs and rehearsals and replace strings and leads and such, would have to come out of my own pocket and I would have to go without other things to pay for them, but that's the price of a hobby.

Not being bothered about making money at it does not make me evil or a lesser musician than you. And implying as much is just snide and smacks of bitterness.

[Earbrass]

[quote name='KingBollock' timestamp='1349880547' post='1831725']
Money causes too many problems that I wouldn't want to have to deal with in the hobby I do for FUN. I don't want to have to worry that we're not charging enough, making us look crap, or charging too much, making us look arrogant. I don't want to have to worry about the singer wanting 2 cuts because he also plays a guitar, or a drummer wanting more because he has to carry so much, or because he has further to travel. I don't want to stress about being stiffed by the venue at the end of every gig. And I don't want to have to cope with paying tax and stuff. And if I leave all this to another band member, I don't want to have to worry that he or she is doing it properly.

I have a few hobbies that I enjoy and have to pay for and don't expect anything back from. There are hobbies I would like to do but they're expensive, so I can't, I just have to accept that. I am far from well off and having to travel to gigs and rehearsals and replace strings and leads and such, would have to come out of my own pocket and I would have to go without other things to pay for them, but that's the price of a hobby.

Not being bothered about making money at it does not make me evil or a lesser musician than you. And implying as much is just snide and smacks of bitterness.
[/quote]

Great post.

[paul torch]

[quote name='Earbrass' timestamp='1349881312' post='1831738']
Great post.
[/quote]+1

[flyfisher]

+2

[thebrig]

+3

[Skol303]

[quote name='Spike Vincent' timestamp='1342874758' post='1742176']
Sound,lighting,security,staff etc are doing their jobs and expect to get paid.(as did I),but I think generally speaking many bands are by definition not full time musicians,so they're bottom of the pile when it comes to handing out the cash.
[/quote]

I guess the argument is that bands 'benefit' from the exposure of the gig, whereas the other staff you mention don't - or at least not in the same way. Which is why there'll always be some band willing to play just about any gig for free.

It's a weak argument, sure, but it's one I used to hear repeated when I was involved in music many moons ago.

Sucks. But "them's the breaks".

[swanbrook]

[quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1349895183' post='1831990']
+3
[/quote]

-1

[Dad3353]

[quote name='KingBollock' timestamp='1349880547' post='1831725']
Money causes too many problems that I wouldn't want to have to deal with in the hobby I do for FUN... [i]et al[/i][/quote]
Echos my take on this completely. Well posted, KB...
Many years ago, I was playing professionally, in French variety bands. When the family grew, I went back to IT, playing weddings and such at week-ends. Now I do it as a hobby, with my 2 sons. I'm robbing no-one. If you ask for money and get it, that's fine. If you ask for nothing and get it, that's fine, too.
There are other imperatives in life than money, imho.

[redstriper]

[quote name='KingBollock' timestamp='1349880547' post='1831725']
Not being bothered about making money at it does not make me evil or a lesser musician than you. And implying as much is just snide and smacks of bitterness.
[/quote]

+999

If you wanna make money, fine - but leave us kids alone.

[JTUK]

For me it can be too much work for the money..Pubs are invaribly that.... so the gig needs to return.
It is EITHER great fun or a good payer. If it is both then great, if it is neither, then that is a killer.

If bands don't charge, then that is their problem/choice..maybe they can't, maybe they don't want to
but I don't know many really good bands who don't value their services..well, any, actually, but I know
a few bands who can't get money for love nor gigs . But then I also don't know any venue that cares about their rosta
that does not pay.
If a band does not charge a fee..who would want them..??
It smacks of the venue not valuing the service they are trying to make money off the top of.

I am not talking about charity gigs and I understand bands may have to go in cheaper until they proove their worth...
but pubs round here might have an audition night where the band plays for beers.... but who seriously falls for that one.

I've done my time of no payers when I was a kid....

Other than that, I don't really care ... not likely to come across those units anyway.. they aren't going to be playing places
I'd go to. and none of the free festivals... i,e on the back of some charity, have line ups that work out either 99% of the time, IME

[BassTractor]

+4

[KingBollock]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1349904632' post='1832201']
For me it can be too much work for the money..Pubs are invaribly that.... so the gig needs to return.
It is EITHER great fun or a good payer. If it is both then great, if it is neither, then that is a killer.
[/quote]
See, I can understand that. I'm an angler and I have a philosophy that goes: If the sun is shining and the landscape beautiful, I don't care if I catch or not. If I'm sitting next to a wet, muddy hole in the ground, then I want to be catching Fish.
However, I still have to pay for my license, day ticket, bait, line, hooks and tackle and all I might get out of it is a wet head and slimy hands.

[KingBollock]

One problem I have with all of this is that the ones who claim bands playing for free take money from "better" bands, in the same breath will say that if you don't charge, you're obviously crap and who would want you to play for them anyway? It's two faced and both faces are wrong.

[JTUK]

Not really..I'm saying bands don't charge because they don't/can't find a market.

Personally, I'd also bet they aren't good enough either to get past that obstacle but that aside, I wouldn't be after their gig
as it doesn't pay..and they aren't going to be/or get on our circuit if the don't get their market

There are plenty of festivals round here that run as beer festivals primarily and if they don't have a band budget
why would we even be talking... we want two different things.

[redstriper]

[quote name='KingBollock' timestamp='1349905817' post='1832220']
It's two faced and both faces are wrong.
[/quote]

Da iawn bro - can you get my band any gigs down your way (highly paid if possible)

[KingBollock]

I don't have a problem with bands who want to charge, get what you can get away with. What I object to is being told that by not charging I am ruining it for those who want to and I am obviously an inferior musician.
I can understand charging if you're being asked to play a crappy gig that's not going to be any fun. But I just wouldn't do the gig. If there's no fun there's no point, as far as I am concerned.

[peteb]

[quote name='KingBollock' timestamp='1349905817' post='1832220']
One problem I have with all of this is that the ones who claim bands playing for free take money from "better" bands, in the same breath will say that if you don't charge, you're obviously crap and who would want you to play for them anyway? It's two faced and both faces are wrong.
[/quote]
If I put a band together to play pubs and go out for, say £200 to £250 (average pub gig fee these days around here), then we will not competing with the likes of Jake or Doddy who will be playing, for example, corporate / function gigs that pay much better.

But neither will we be competing with bands that will play for free or go out for £80, as they will be playing the pubs that the better local bands avoid because they won’t pay the going rate!

The problem is that this starts to distort the market for live music, which is rather fragile at the moment. The new landlord at an established music venue may be tempted to think that he can get away with paying bands less as that is what the the pub down the road is doing and then wonders why his attendances are dropping alarmingly. He then stops putting on bands and changes to karaoke or some other abomination before going out of business six months later. Similarly punters wonder why the quality of bands isn’t as good as it used to be and stay in on a Saturday night with a DVD rather than going out to watch live music……….

[swanbrook]

[quote name='KingBollock' timestamp='1349907404' post='1832250']
I don't have a problem with bands who want to charge, get what you can get away with. What I object to is being told that by not charging I am ruining it for those who want to and I am obviously an inferior musician.
I can understand charging if you're being asked to play a crappy gig that's not going to be any fun. But I just wouldn't do the gig. If there's no fun there's no point, as far as I am concerned.
[/quote]

Now your just being a condescending prat."get what you can get away with" "crappy gigs" "no fun"
This coming from a guy who goes fishing ...
I run a business and charge the standard fee. Two thing we are always told is how much value for money we give and how much we enjoy what we do. I get to play with my friends and have a blast doing it every weekend. All week I hunt down chase and get the gigs. I don't justify myself to punters and I really didn't think any of us who do work full time at their craft should have to do it to fellow musicians.
Play all the free gigs you want it ain't going to affect me but don't ever look down your nose at what I do.

Btw I live beside one of the best salmon rivers in Ireland if you ever fancy a visit my mate has a spot where I can bring you and you can fish away

[KingBollock]

I'm not looking down my nose at anyone. I was showing that there is another side to many of the things that have been said in this thread. I agree that doing free gigs isn't going to affect you. So all I am asking is not to be looked down on just because I want to play for free. It doesn't make me wrong, it doesn't make me an inferior player, which is what I've been reading throughout this thread. And sticking up for myself doesn't make me a prat.

[swanbrook]

Look I said it twice already it won't effect me, I do see both sides and agree I think to a point playing for free isn't the best idea in the world but in general it's not going bother me.

When I moved to this town the standard fee for a band was 80 quid a man ( again in pubs not weddings) now because bands where under cutting the standard is 30. And if the guys are happy doing it than fair enough. I don't look down at anyone who has the balls to play live.
Sorry about the prat thing ! But I take what I do very seriously made too much the fishing stands but I will be watching from the side with a beer and practicing brown eye girl

Edited October 10, 2012 by swanbrook