Fender 3-bolt neck and micro-tilt adjustment. Evil or genius?

[mcnach]

I can't say I have much experience with 3-bolt neck instruments, but I heard over the years people talk about 3-bolt neck fixing as a TTT (truly terrible thing).
Probably a bit hyperbolic... lots of Fender and G&L basses still around with 3-bolt necks.

My only close experience is my brother's Stratocaster, which works just fine, and my new Jazz, which seems solid too.

Over the past couple of days I have been doing small adjustments to the Jazz, to get the action just right for me. Today I decided I needed to alter the neck angle a tiny fraction to help me get that very low action I was after. Not a big deal, but on this bass... it was even less of a deal
Loosen strings a bit, three bolts to partially undo, turn the micro-tilt screw a fraction, redo bolts and retune. Trial and error... repeat a couple more times, and now it plays beautifully. And I think the combination of the microtilt and 3-bolt neck is actually pretty cool, making the neck adjustment very easy and quick. I'm a fan.

So I say genius.

What do you say?

[markorbit]

I certainly think that the ability to adjust the neck angle is often overlooked but it can be crucial to a perfect dream setup. It'is something that cannot be rectified correctly with adjustments of string action or bridge. I've just had a quality parts bass put together and the neck is sublime with SUPER low action at the moment except... it gets progressively tighter the further up the neck you go. But as the action is so low - it matters. Otherwise the neck seems so true that I don't want to alter the truss away from it. I know what I have to do... right now I wish there was a good mechanism at the back. IIRC the general dislike of the micro-tilt was down to some issues introduced with the concept?

[mcnach]

[quote name='markorbit' timestamp='1343524005' post='1751766']
I certainly think that the ability to adjust the neck angle is often overlooked but it can be crucial to a perfect dream setup. It'is something that cannot be rectified correctly with adjustments of string action or bridge. I've just had a quality parts bass put together and the neck is sublime with SUPER low action at the moment except... it gets progressively tighter the further up the neck you go. But as the action is so low - it matters. Otherwise the neck seems so true that I don't want to alter the truss away from it. I know what I have to do... right now I wish there was a good mechanism at the back. IIRC the general dislike of the micro-tilt was down to some issues introduced with the concept?
[/quote]


what are those "issues introduced with the concept"?

[Delberthot]

So its like shimming a neck but you don't have to take the neck off?

[Stacker]

I used to detest the 3-bolt neck but the bolt at the apex of the plate is like a stove bolt and has its own threaded socket, therefore once the 'tilt' is setand the rear bolt re-tightened the contact will be stable. I have lost count of the times I've gotten a 2nd-hand bass and had to find the shim 'sweet spot' by trial and error, removing the neck several time in the process. From that point of view a tilt system has its benefits over 4-bolt.

Interstingly, anyone want to comment about the 6-bolt neck?

[stingrayPete1977]

Most three bolt neck basses I have seen you can move the neck left and right fairly easily with a good tug. Now a 4 bolt with a micro tilt that's a different matter. In truth though a good shim is always going to give a good solid joint compared to having a little pin trying to do the job, using it as a way to gauge the shim you need would make sense.

[stingrayPete1977]

The 6 bolt is as solid as a rock! Never had to shim one though......

[The Bass Doc]

Don't think there's anything wrong with the 3-bolt system in principle. Leo Fender persisted with it through his Musicman period and on to G&L.
It's mainly that it's introduction coincided with a time when jigs were wearing out so neck joints were gappy, pickup routs got sloppy, contours got slabby etc...

[Roland Rock]

I probably wouldn't try it with [url="http://www.ritter-instruments.com/raptor.php"]this[/url] one

[Fat Rich]

I've got 3 bolts on my 74 and 78, the micro tilt seems to be seized solid on both although I'm sure they could be freed up with some WD40.

The neck is rock solid on the 74 because it has good neck joint routing, the 78 isn't so stable because the neck joint is a joke, the routing is not even neck shaped. The screws into the neck have been over tightened in the past to compensate and feel like they'll strip any minute, although it can probably be fixed with some plugging and re-drilling.

I prefer the 4 bolt system, but only where there is access to the truss rod without removing the neck. Older instruments without truss rod access need to be treated with care or the threads in neck get sloppy if the neck bolts are over tightened.

[mcnach]

[quote name='Delberthot' timestamp='1343533216' post='1751788']
So its like shimming a neck but you don't have to take the neck off?
[/quote]

'xactly.

[mcnach]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1343545111' post='1751814']
Most three bolt neck basses I have seen you can move the neck left and right fairly easily with a good tug. Now a 4 bolt with a micro tilt that's a different matter. In truth though a good shim is always going to give a good solid joint compared to having a little pin trying to do the job, using it as a way to gauge the shim you need would make sense.
[/quote]

Yes, I understand that, and that's why whenever I heard bad comments about 3-bolt I just gave it a half a microsecond thought, nodded and moved on.

But now I am questioning it. I really can't see any "movement" issues with the Jazz I just got, and neither has my brother with his strat (about 10 years or more with that guitar).
Once it's "solidly attached", you cannot make it any more solid by adding 300 extra bolts, if you see what I mean. And I play my bass, I don't use it to club baby seals or anything...

Just getting the feeling that "3-bolt necks are unstable and bad" is an exaggeration. Much like "Stingray's G string is weak"

[mcnach]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1343545268' post='1751815']
The 6 bolt is as solid as a rock! Never had to shim one though......
[/quote]

That has nothing to do with the number of bolts, and the 5 basses I have owned (now 3) with 6 bolt necks have not required a shim either. But I think that is a reflection on factory tolerances than anything else. And if I had to put a shim on a 6-bolt neck... I'd be looking at the 3-bolt with microtilt with envy

It seems reasonable to think that a shim makes better contact therefore it is better than a screw making a small contact point. However, is the resulting difference noticeable?
Is a micro-tilt neck instrument less resonant than a shimmed one, and this one less than one without a shim?
I am not convinced that works as a general rule.
People argued that about bolt-on vs. glued... and that doesn't hold water for me either.

[gjones]

The system seems very logical and combined with access to the truss rod at the neck makes setting up a bass a lot easier. I've never owned a Fender which had the micro tilt neck but have often wondered why Fender haven't re-introduced it.

[Conan]

I have no idea what this is about.... and I have a three-bold Jazz! Please enlighten this thicko about the "micro-tilt" system to which you refer?? Thanks.

[mcnach]

[quote name='The Bass Doc' timestamp='1343545827' post='1751825']
Don't think there's anything wrong with the 3-bolt system in principle. Leo Fender persisted with it through his Musicman period and on to G&L.
It's mainly that it's introduction coincided with a time when jigs were wearing out so neck joints were gappy, pickup routs got sloppy, contours got slabby etc...
[/quote]


and this makes a lot of sense.
70s CBS Fender is accepted as a general low point in the company's production. Although some great instruments still managed to come out of their factory.

[BigRedX]

The 3-bolt neck joint with the micro-tilt is a good idea that Fender in the 70s simply couldn't implement in a consistent and reliable fashion.

It relied on the two metal plates fitted to the neck and and body in the neck pocket to be completely flat with the surface of the joint. Unfortunately this seemed to be a fairly hit or miss operation. If one of the plates wasn't sufficiently flat, then adjusting the micro-tilt screw would tend to push sideways as well as up.

On it's own that wouldn't have been a problem but when combined with sloppy over-sized neck pockets, the neck had room to move sideways which resulted in the typical 70s mis-aligned Fender neck.

Every new Fender with the micro-tilt mechanism that came into the music shop where I was helping out in 1979 suffered from mis-aligned necks to the extent that none of them were suitable to be put on display until the shop guitar tech had taken the necks off and sorted out the problem with the plates.

[RichF]

interesting. I discussed this with Chris McIntyre (ex Sei and now McIntyre Guitars) and he encouraged me to disengage the microtilt and revert to a shim with an explanation that in part involved the issue of contact (the difference between a pin and a traditional shim) and reference to what BigRedX is talking about. What I would agree with is doing whatever's necessary to understand this dimension of your bass(es) so that adjustment is as easy and effective as possible. If that makes 3 bolt and a micro-tilt your thing then go for it. I am rarely in a set up crisis so I quite "enjoy" taking my time over an afternoon, adjusting and fiddling to get it right. If I needed stuff on the fly then I would see the benefits of a micro tilt as long as it worked.

Edited July 29, 2012 by RichF

[mcnach]

[quote name='Fat Rich' timestamp='1343552379' post='1751887']
I've got 3 bolts on my 74 and 78, the micro tilt seems to be seized solid on both although I'm sure they could be freed up with some WD40.

The neck is rock solid on the 74 because it has good neck joint routing, the 78 isn't so stable because the neck joint is a joke, the routing is not even neck shaped. The screws into the neck have been over tightened in the past to compensate and feel like they'll strip any minute, although it can probably be fixed with some plugging and re-drilling.

I prefer the 4 bolt system, but only where there is access to the truss rod without removing the neck. Older instruments without truss rod access need to be treated with care or the threads in neck get sloppy if the neck bolts are over tightened.
[/quote]


That's another thing: truss rod access at the body end. Madness!!!
I have one of those Modern PLayer series Fender Stratocaster, based on the 60s models. Lovely guitar. Based on the 60s models, but not adhering strictly to the 60s... for instance it has a two-point vibrato system, which is a modern addition and a better execution of the original idea than using 6 small screws partially unscrewed. Nice. However... they kept the truss rod access at the body end. Why oh why oh why oh why don't you "modernplayerise" it and use an easy access truss rod system, since you are not exactly going for 100% genuine characteristics anyway?
Grr.

It was explained to me that a truss rod inserted from the body end is a better mechanical solution. Then do like MusicMan do and their "wheel of fortune".

Sorry for the offtopic rant... I hate having to undo the neck to mess with the truss rod, especially when the screws are simple wood screws, not exactly designed for repeated screwing/unscrewing.

Edited July 29, 2012 by mcnach

[mcnach]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1343555041' post='1751928']
I have no idea what this is about.... and I have a three-bold Jazz! Please enlighten this thicko about the "micro-tilt" system to which you refer?? Thanks.
[/quote]



no problem, check this out, bottom of the page. The picture is actually of a 4-bolt, but the microtilt system is the same, through a tiny hole at the bottom of the neck plate:

[url="http://www.fretnotguitarrepair.com/repair/electric-guitar/neck-angle.php"]http://www.fretnotguitarrepair.com/repair/electric-guitar/neck-angle.php[/url]

[mcnach]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1343555559' post='1751939']
The 3-bolt neck joint with the micro-tilt is a good idea that Fender in the 70s simply couldn't implement in a consistent and reliable fashion.

It relied on the two metal plates fitted to the neck and and body in the neck pocket to be completely flat with the surface of the joint. Unfortunately this seemed to be a fairly hit or miss operation. If one of the plates wasn't sufficiently flat, then adjusting the micro-tilt screw would tend to push sideways as well as up.

On it's own that wouldn't have been a problem but when combined with sloppy over-sized neck pockets, the neck had room to move sideways which resulted in the typical 70s mis-aligned Fender neck.

Every new Fender with the micro-tilt mechanism that came into the music shop where I was helping out in 1979 suffered from mis-aligned necks to the extent that none of them were suitable to be put on display until the shop guitar tech had taken the necks off and sorted out the problem with the plates.
[/quote]


thank you for a great explanation!

[mcnach]

[quote name='RichF' timestamp='1343555595' post='1751940']
interesting. I discussed this with Chris McIntyre (ex Sei and now McIntyre Guitars) and he encouraged me to disengage the microtilt and revert to a shim with an explanation that in part involved the issue of contact (the difference between a pin and a traditional shim) and reference to what BigRedX is talking about. What I would agree with is doing whatever's necessary to understand this dimension of your bass(es) so that adjustment is as easy and effective as possible. If that makes 3 bolt and a micro-tilt your thing then go for it. I am rarely in a set up crisis so I quite "enjoy" taking my time over an afternoon, adjusting and fiddling to get it right. If I needed stuff on the fly then I would see the benefits of a micro tilt as long as it worked.
[/quote]

Your point about "speed" is a good one.

It's true, I enjoyed that it was simpler and faster to use the microtilt compared to using a shim... but it's hardly the end of the world if I need to remove neck, put shim, do neck again etc. I have done that many times before, and once it's done right, it stays and does not require further modification.
But I am of an impatient nature, and I want things done yesterday.
I don't particularly enjoy the process of setting up my guitars. I like the final result, and I love playing with them. But setting them up? Nah. Once I fugure out what it is they need, I lose interest. I'd leave the manual work to somebody else if I could afford to pay a luthier a retainer to be available anytime I call

[Conan]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1343555946' post='1751947'][url="http://www.fretnotguitarrepair.com/repair/electric-guitar/neck-angle.php"]http://www.fretnotgu.../neck-angle.php[/url][/quote]

Cheers for that! I had already found it on an old thread - very useful! You learn something new every day!

[mcnach]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1343556815' post='1751958']
Cheers for that! I had already found it on an old thread - very useful! You learn something new every day!
[/quote]

Adjusting the neck angle can make the difference between "meh" and "playing like butter". It's often overlooked. Some people think of a shim as something you do to repair a defective instrument. IN a way... they are right, because if the instrument were made carefully making sure neck and body fits perfectly etc, the neck angle would be spot on. But with a bolt on neck, a tiny shim can make a huge difference (illustrating just how accurate the manufacturers would need to be), and it's a painless and simple operation. The micro-tilt makes it even simpler. Take advantage of it! (if you need to)

[Fat Rich]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1343555722' post='1751943']
That's another thing: truss rod access at the body end. Madness!!!

[/quote]

I suspect when the Fender bass was conceived, no one expected bass players to change their strings often for fresh ones or want super low action. Upright bass players leave the same strings on for years and have to have the instrument properly set up usually by professional, Leo was probably trying for a fairly dead thumpy sound from flatwound strings (this was before roundwounds were popular) and foam mutes.

So, like Jamerson you kept the same set of strings for the whole of your career. Which meant you didn't need to remove the ashtray covers, take the old strings off, put the new ones on, take them off and remove the neck, adjust the truss rod, put the neck and the strings back on, then off and adjust, back on, set the action (nice and high), the intonation and finally put the ashtray covers back on. There's a guy here on Basschat with a very nice 70s Mocha Fender who hasn't changed the strings yet, and probably hasn't needed to adjust anything either.

It was when people like John Entwhistle made the zingier roundwound sound popular, and Anthony Jackson put fresh strings on not just for every session but for every take, that you needed to get to the gubbins regularly to make the adjustments.


[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1343555722' post='1751943']
Sorry for the offtopic rant... I hate having to undo the neck to mess with the truss rod, especially when the screws are simple wood screws, not exactly designed for repeated screwing/unscrewing.
[/quote]

It's your thread, you can do what you like!

Edited July 29, 2012 by Fat Rich