Mixing speakers without crossovers??

[Pbassred]

I'm (still) close to going shopping for a new amp. At the moment I'm still surfing. I was worried about whether to go for all 12" or all 10" or mix 10" and 15". Before I even get to brands I've noticed that none of the cabs seam to use crossover networks. Surely you would want to use the 10" for Highs only and 15" for lows only Otherwise it would sound bad or be inefficient.

[icastle]

No they don't.

Crossovers are useful if you're applying a wide spectrum of frequencies to a speaker cluster, but bass is a comparatively narrow set of frequencies.
The 'top end' is usually perfectly happy just being applied to a horn and the piezo types don't need a sophisticated crossover to drive them.

In other words, it's perfectly normal and nothing to worry about.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Pbassred' timestamp='1343552150' post='1751885']
Surely you would want to use the 10" for Highs only and 15" for lows only Otherwise it would sound bad or be inefficient.
[/quote]If the tens and fifteens used were optimized for highs versus lows this would be true. But they aren't. There's precious little difference in the response of electric bass tens through fifteens, and for that reason precious little benefit to mixing them, if any.

[Pbassred]

[quote]but bass is a comparatively narrow set of frequencies[/quote] Fundamentals yes. But I firmly believe that my bass does business above (say) 1KHz.

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1343562890' post='1752061']
If the tens and fifteens used were optimized for highs versus lows this would be true. But they aren't. There's precious little difference in the response of electric bass tens through fifteens, and for that reason precious little benefit to mixing them, if any.
[/quote]
So ....the argument between 10" and 15" is noncence?
Alternatively;
What if speaker cabinet manufacturers decided to take advantage of the natual characteristics of driver size?

[discreet]

[quote name='Pbassred' timestamp='1343570037' post='1752149']
What if speaker cabinet manufacturers decided to take advantage of the natual characteristics of driver size?[/quote]

Driver diameter and tone/frequency response are not in any way related.

[xgsjx]

The argument over 10s & 15s is a bit like arguing over whether beef comes from a cow.

[discreet]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1343576298' post='1752234']
The argument over 10s & 15s is a bit like arguing over whether beef comes from a cow.[/quote]

I like pork.

[xgsjx]

Edited because the iPad version of BC does things that are a bit random!

Edited July 29, 2012 by xgsjx

[xgsjx]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1343577267' post='1752248']


I like pork.
[/quote]

Pork's good, but beef is better (though you can't beat a bacon butty for brekky).

[discreet]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1343578957' post='1752277']
Pork's good, but beef is better (though you can't beat a bacon butty for brekky). [/quote]

Mmmm, bacon. Arrrrghhhhhh... *drool*

Anyway, back on topic:

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1343554464' post='1751915']
...it's perfectly normal and nothing to worry about. [/quote]

^This.^ Mmmm, Topic. Arrrrghhhhhh... *drool*

Edited July 29, 2012 by discreet

[icastle]

[quote name='Pbassred' timestamp='1343570037' post='1752149']
Fundamentals yes. But I firmly believe that my bass does business above (say) 1KHz.
[/quote]

If it does then the amount is going to be so comparatively small that a bog standard piezo driver will be more than adequate.

Turn the scenario on it's head - if there was any real benefit in using a crossover in a bass cab then all the mid to high tier manufacturers would be fitting them, and they aren't...

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1343584308' post='1752367']


Turn the scenario on it's head - if there was any real benefit in using a crossover in a bass cab then all the mid to high tier manufacturers would be fitting them, and they aren't...
[/quote]The reason they don't is that the vast majority of players would not be willing to pay the added cost, lacking the understanding of how speakers work and therefore why a well designed and built cab is worth a lot more than a few drivers tossed into a box.

[Jack]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1343586676' post='1752417']
The reason they don't is that the vast majority of players would not be willing to pay the added cost, lacking the understanding of how speakers work and therefore why a well designed and built cab is worth a lot more than a few drivers tossed into a box.
[/quote]

I thought that's all you guys did, stick a few speakers in a box and sell as many of them as possible? Sell some 4x10"s for the highs and 1x15" for the lows, right? You're telling me there's [i]design[/i] involved?

[Pbassred]

[quote]The argument over 10s & 15s is a bit like arguing over whether beef comes from a cow. [/quote] Are you typing for practise of making a point here? Is it that 10" is obviously better, or that there obviously is NO difference? There is so much debate, Its difficult to know which side of the polarised debate you are on!

[quote]Driver diameter and tone/frequency response are not in any way related[/quote] You might possibly want to check out the Eminence web site.

[quote]The reason they don't is that the vast majority of players would not be willing to pay the added cost[/quote] Not until they can make one that lights up, anyway.

[xgsjx]

[quote name='Pbassred' timestamp='1343591996' post='1752517']
Are you typing for practise of making a point here? Is it that 10" is obviously better, or that there obviously is NO difference? There is so much debate, Its difficult to know which side of the polarised debate you are on!
[/quote]

My point is that the "argument" is pointless.
The benefit a 15 has over a 10 is that it moves more air (the surface area of cone is more).
The benefit a 10 has over a 15 is better dispersion (how much sound gets to your audience on the horizontal axis).
Drivers usually cover the same frequency range regardless of size, it's up to the cab designer to get the best from it.

If you want to know more, have a look at either Barefaced's or Bill Fitzmaurice's site.

[discreet]

[quote name='Pbassred' timestamp='1343591996' post='1752517']You might possibly want to check out the Eminence web site.[/quote]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1343593014' post='1752530']
Drivers usually cover the same frequency range regardless of size, it's up to the cab designer to get the best from it.
If you want to know more, have a look at either Barefaced's or Bill Fitzmaurice's site.[/quote]

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Pbassred' timestamp='1343591996' post='1752517']
You might possibly want to check out the Eminence web site.
[/quote]When you do spend time here:
http://www.eminence.com/support/understanding-loudspeaker-data/

The only factor influenced by cone size alone is the dispersion angle. Where response is concerned there are tens that go lower than some fifteens, and fifteens that go higher than some tens, so to say that 'tens do this and fiteens do that' has no basis in fact.

[quote]The benefit a 15 has over a 10 is that it moves more air (the surface area of cone is more)[/quote]The amount of air moved is determined by the driver displacement, not cone area. Some tens have more displacement than some fifteens, so how low/loud you want to go isn't a matter of cone size.
.

[xgsjx]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1343594538' post='1752569']
The amount of air moved is determined by the driver displacement, not cone area. Some tens have more displacement than some fifteens, so how low/loud you want to go isn't a matter of cone size.
.
[/quote]
Fair point. Though with a lot of manufacturers, they seem to allow diameter to determine displacement.

[Kesh]

18 posts on mixing cabs and no one has talked about phase.

[xgsjx]

[quote name='Kesh' timestamp='1343604203' post='1752715']
18 posts on mixing cabs and no one has talked about phase.
[/quote]

That usually gets discussed at about page 3.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Pbassred' timestamp='1343552150' post='1751885']
I'm (still) close to going shopping for a new amp. At the moment I'm still surfing. I was worried about whether to go for all 12" or all 10" or mix 10" and 15". Before I even get to brands I've noticed that none of the cabs seam to use crossover networks. Surely you would want to use the 10" for Highs only and 15" for lows only Otherwise it would sound bad or be inefficient.
[/quote]

I used 115 and a 210 to great effect, IMO..but got rid of the 15 as it was a heavy old beast ..I now run 2x210 which sounds even better.
I would tend to keep to the same manufactureres though as they should be designed to compliment each other...
I am not saying mixing makers doesn't work but it is more of a lucky guess or solution...IMO.

When running bass through speakers, I think it is more important to have more than enough to cope with the stress rather than the size.
Bass can be brutal on speakers and I tend to stick with this rule... 1 and half times amp power for your cab config...
so a 400 watt amp will need 600watts of cab capability... this may be a historical trait on my part but I stick with it as when things are loud, you need to
be confident your aren't breaking something..and there is something wonderous about a great cab
going off at around 3-400watts with room to spare..

[icastle]

[quote name='Kesh' timestamp='1343604203' post='1752715']
18 posts on mixing cabs and no one has talked about phase.
[/quote]

I usually set mine to 'stun'...

[discreet]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1343664511' post='1753352']
I usually set mine to 'stun'... [/quote]

Me too. You can't fire a phaser when you're being transported, anyway. Tsk.

[grenadilla]

Whatever speakers you use ,use of two heads [Who-style] will help you get biting treble along with a regular bass sound. You don't have to use distortion to get a catchy tone , just go Hi=Fi !