Bill Fitzmaurice Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 [quote name='Protium' timestamp='1344026748' post='1759012'] If you tip a 4x10 45 degrees the speakers will be even further apart horizontally [/quote]Quite right. Pardon my brain-fart. The reason they'll work better that way is that rather than having two vertical line sources there will be three, with the center to center distance between each less than that of the two in a normal position. But it still won't work nearly as well as a single vertical line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 [quote name='PlungerModerno' timestamp='1344027316' post='1759022'] Yup... and you'll have likely sacrificed a spot to store the amp and lows due to not coupling with the floor. [/quote] Lows will still couple with the floor, since lows have a long wavelength so need to be sourced very far from the floor to decouple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingBollock Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 [quote name='Protium' timestamp='1344026748' post='1759012'] If you tip a 4x10 45 degrees the speakers will be even further apart horizontally [/quote] I was imagining that the two that would be beside each other would be further away from each other, as you say, so would that mean you get slightly more dispersion before they start to interfere with each other, and would it be enough of a difference to be noticed? But, more importantly, how much more freedom do the top and bottom speakers get, from interference, now that they aren't directly next to another speaker? I have no idea about any of this kind of stuff and I don't pretend to. It was just a thought that popped into my head that I thought would be fun to explore. If it turns out to be a crap idea then so be it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlungerModerno Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1344027906' post='1759035'] Lows will still couple with the floor, since lows have a long wavelength so need to be sourced very far from the floor to decouple. [/quote] Wait... I thought 'coupling' was done mainly by the mechanical connection between the cab and floor... Oh... http://barefacedbass.com/technical-information/stage-or-floor-coupling.htm If Mr. Claber has his facts right... Acoustic coupling is the desirable one... My assumptions are proven mistaken. Thank you for correcting me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vintage_ben Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1344025615' post='1758986'] The 'engineering' required to develop the SVT cab took perhaps a week. It's a sealed box, how difficult is that? Theile modeling was not being used at that point, having been developed only a few years before and was only known of in Australia until 1971. Drivers using Theile parameters didn't come along until a few years after that. The SVT drivers already existed, guitar drivers BTW, which were also used in some Fender guitar combos. They were chosen based solely on their 32 ohm impedance, allowing a simple parallel wiring harness that the assemblers would be less likely to screw up than a complicated series/parallel scheme. If some 32 ohm twelves had been readily available they likely would have been used instead and quite possibly tens would never have become the standard for electric bass. The SVT driver has changed over the years, but it remains an inexpensive stamped frame unit that costs Ampeg about $30 each. The neo drivers used by Barefaced, for instance, come in at least four times that. [/quote] Interesting thoughts Bill. Thanks. I'm not totally convinced that it was as 'cheap' as it might reasonably appear, although given what you say I don't see why it wasn't. Is '69 an SVT and 2 8x10 cabs was $1,450, so the equivalent of around $9000 in today's money. If you assume the an amp/cab of price ratio as it is today that would make the implcit price of an 8x10 cab around $3,300. Now you might argue that the cab in effect subsidises the more complex heads so that ratio is out of whack, but you're still tallking about a very expensive cab if you alter the numbers within the bounds of realism. So the conclusion I'd draw is Ampeg was either a very profitable company when it came to SVT cabs or they were relatively expensive to develop (given you say they're cheap to build) and they had to claw that back. Still I'm not wildly concerned either way, and you'd never be able to calculate with any accuracy. It's just an interesting thought. And just to nit pick, I did specifiaclly say equivalent (I realise this wasn't original comparison). I.e if an established company decided to develop an SVT style 8x10 in 2012 - so not a Neo superlight thing, clearly quality comes at a price. So I'll stand by that one I think. Edited August 3, 2012 by vintage_ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 [quote name='vintage_ben' timestamp='1344029780' post='1759074'] Interesting thoughts Bill. Thanks. I'm not totally convinced that it was as 'cheap' as it might reasonably appear, although given what you say I don't see why it wasn't. Is '69 an SVT and 2 8x10 cabs was $1,450, so the equivalent of around $9000 in today's money. If you assume the an amp/cab of price ratio as it is today that would make the implcit price of an 8x10 cab around $3,300. Now you might argue that the cab in effect subsidises the more complex heads so that ratio is out of whack, but you're still tallking about a very expensive cab if you alter the numbers within the bounds of realism. So the conclusion I'd draw is Ampeg was either a very profitable company when it came to SVT cabs or they were relatively expensive to develop (given you say they're cheap to build) and they had to claw that back. Still I'm not wildly concerned either way, and you'd never be able to calculate with any accuracy. It's just an interesting thought. And just to nit pick, I did specifiaclly say equivalent (I realise this wasn't original comparison). I.e if an established company decided to develop an SVT style 8x10 in 2012 - so not a Neo superlight thing, clearly quality comes at a price. So I'll stand by that one I think. [/quote] Ampeg is pretty good at massive prices for cheaply made items, going as far as to knock out 8x10s in chipboard. Its an expensive badge. Main point being to make an Ampeg style 8x10 now, the design process involves looking at an Ampeg 8x10. Same thing happened in the 70s, a cab I have is clearly a clone of the Acoustic 360 cabinet, which was in turn copied from a larger W horn cab I think for theaters, anyway, I got in touch with the guy that made it, and asked how it was designed, and it was by sending the carpenter to the local amp showroom with a tape measure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 (edited) [quote name='vintage_ben' timestamp='1344029780' post='1759074'] And just to nit pick, I did specifiaclly say equivalent (I realise this wasn't original comparison). I.e if an established company decided to develop an SVT style 8x10 in 2012 - so not a Neo superlight thing, clearly quality comes at a price. So I'll stand by that one I think. [/quote]The design process for the original SVT was to build a box large enough to contain the drivers on the baffle and to adjust the depth to give a decent result without being overly large. A week, tops. To do so today using modeling software perhaps an hour to come up with the basic design, using CAD a few more hours to create the cut sheets. Things get complex when you use vented cabs and/or multiple drivers with a crossover, and then it's the crossover that takes all the time and effort. One of my commercial designs went through literally months of B testing until the manufacturer arrived at the combination of cab tuning frequency and crossover component choices that gave him the best result according to the testers. That does not occur with a simple one-way sealed box. Alex's 69er seems to be taking a long time to come to market, I suspect partly due to the complexity involved with his 2.5 alignment, which would take a lot of B testing to get it right. I expect it to be worth the wait. If I was going to do a cab of that sort that's how I'd do it, which I've mentioned more than a few times on various forums. Edited August 3, 2012 by Bill Fitzmaurice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman20 Posted August 3, 2012 Author Share Posted August 3, 2012 Maybe our ears are so used to the 8x10 tone that we think it's a classic, but cheap/quick design or not, it sounds fantastic. Maybe they just got lucky. I can think of plenty of examples in the art and design world where they got it right first time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 I think the happyness of the 8x10 on the big stage is down to its lack of lows and dispersion meaning it doesn't make a mess with the subs and monitoring, as well as looking cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Yes, I remember the first time I used one of those. I was dreadfully disappointed when sound-checking, trying to get a sound I liked. But once the band started, a huge smile found its way to my face. They sound so good in the mix I`m sure, due to the lesser lows, and the amount of speakers and height means easily audible with a nice depth to the sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brensabre79 Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 [quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1344032674' post='1759109'] Maybe they just got lucky. I can think of plenty of examples in the art and design world where they got it right first time. [/quote] The Fender Precision for example... The only time I've used an 8x10 where I was happy with the sound was with an SVT head on a big stage. I think a lot of that 'classic' sound has to do with the voicing of the SVT amp combined with the Cabinet theres a tremendous amount of mid disguised as bottom end I think which is why they sound loud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 [quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1344032674' post='1759109'] Maybe our ears are so used to the 8x10 tone that we think it's a classic, but cheap/quick design or not, it sounds fantastic. Maybe they just got lucky. I can think of plenty of examples in the art and design world where they got it right first time. [/quote] The thing is that they were not right as such but we love them for it, I love the original Mini (I have had 4) and its held up as one of these design icons yet its full of flaws, it's 90% perfect just like an 8x10 maybe? Once someone takes all the time money and effort to remove the flaws no one else likes it! Try selling a 60's Mini that has had the seam strips welded and ground off (those ribs that run up the four corners for anyone who does not know them) knocks the value massively, If you develop an 8x10 and remove any technical flaws that people have grown used to people will slate it even though technically its better in every way, unfortunately no amount of cad design or understanding of the fact and figures can calculate for that and to make it worse every person is different too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman20 Posted August 4, 2012 Author Share Posted August 4, 2012 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1344067470' post='1759269'] The thing is that they were not right as such but we love them for it, I love the original Mini (I have had 4) and its held up as one of these design icons yet its full of flaws, it's 90% perfect just like an 8x10 maybe? Once someone takes all the time money and effort to remove the flaws no one else likes it! Try selling a 60's Mini that has had the seam strips welded and ground off (those ribs that run up the four corners for anyone who does not know them) knocks the value massively, If you develop an 8x10 and remove any technical flaws that people have grown used to people will slate it even though technically its better in every way, unfortunately no amount of cad design or understanding of the fact and figures can calculate for that and to make it worse every person is different too! [/quote] True! Agreed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman20 Posted August 4, 2012 Author Share Posted August 4, 2012 There is a lack of big low end with the 8x10, but for ME, personally, I don't have stacks of dubby low end for the tone I'm after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomBass Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 [quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1343811010' post='1755451'] I like vinyl, but it's downside is it's easily scratched & it jumps when you try playing it in a moving car. [/quote] I also love vinyl, but find it chafes a lot in the hot weather. Oh, sorry, wrong forum.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlungerModerno Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 [quote name='RandomBass' timestamp='1344073568' post='1759360'] I also love vinyl, but find it chafes a lot in the hot weather. Oh, sorry, wrong forum.... [/quote] LOL. Big +1 on the improved mini - You can't ignore the 'classic' effect biasing a significant portion of the buyers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 People should understand that better engineering is achieving design goals with less compromise not adding more of everything. You can eq out low end, you can't adjust 50kg of excess weight though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brensabre79 Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 Agreed on the 'classic' effect. I used to have a classic car, i loved it, faults and all, but i would NEVER rely on it for work, including getting to gigs! That role always falls to my ugly but reliable and efficient diesel. Same goes for basses, amps and speakers - I trust superior engineering, ease of use and reliability over cool looks and classic kudos any day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiamPodmore Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 My opinion: If it sounds good, it sounds good. If i can pick it up with one hand and bash some idiot around the head with it, without breaking then that's even better. One of my favourite tone's i've ever used was my Squier Jazz, into my Warwick ProFet head and an SVT-810e, absolutely marvelous. Liam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 [quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1343768465' post='1755048'] ....Why does everyone seem to suddenly shun 4x10s? We may well have been 'used' to the sound after years of them being available, but if it sounds great, where is the problem?... [/quote] Everybody? I think the "issues" have been overstated. Even though these days mine is 2 x 210's, they still sound good to me, and that's the rig I'll be using tonight! [quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1344066814' post='1759262'] ....right first time.... ....The Fender Precision for example.... [/quote] But they didn't get the Precision right first time. Fender decided to make a lot of significant changes to the Precision in the first 6 years before they stopped working on it. People go all misty eyed over vintage bass gear without knowing that 99% of players back then sounded very ordinary at best. I wish I'd been able to use my current rig from day 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 [quote name='dood' timestamp='1343838971' post='1756134'] I would love to see this discussion put in to action. I mean, maybe we should arrange a bass day type meeting with a set of cabinets of different configurations in a room with say a couple of amps and some source material - say, recordings of a Bass guitar that can be repeated for each test. THEN have some techie guinea pigs up front to describe and demonstrate these 'issues' accurately. We'd all be able to have a clear understanding of what these polar problems and phasing problems [b]sound[/b] like. Right? [/quote] Will happily set this up for the next EABB if people will donate amps/cabs to the cause! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 [quote name='charic' timestamp='1344260957' post='1761833'] Will happily set this up for the next EABB if people will donate amps/cabs to the cause![/quote] I'll bring the weed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1344261466' post='1761844'] I'll bring the weed! [/quote]I'll help you carry it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 [quote name='charic' timestamp='1344260957' post='1761833'] Will happily set this up for the next EABB if people will donate amps/cabs to the cause! [/quote] Seriously, lets do this - have a panel of reviewers then post the results on a sticky on BC forever to be referred to. I'm in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman20 Posted August 7, 2012 Author Share Posted August 7, 2012 [quote name='dood' timestamp='1344287997' post='1762399'] Seriously, lets do this - have a panel of reviewers then post the results on a sticky on BC forever to be referred to. I'm in [/quote] Plus one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.