Changing key for the singer

[LiamPodmore]

We do most things in the original key, just because our vocalists voice is strong enough to be able to. There's a few things we have moved, but those are mostly due to not needing to change guitars and that sort of thing, just one or two vocally (As they were done by females originally).

Liam

[Johngh]

We always change key if the singer struggles to sing it, I can't see an issue in doing it. What's the point in having a singer screeching their head off trying to hit notes whan you can just change key to get over it.

Band's that won't do it are incredibly selfish, and no doubt will be the first to complain if the singer has to call off a gig or drop tunes out of a set if they can sing them due to throat issues.

[casapete]

Totally agree with Johngh above.
Whilst it can be a pain moving keys (and in some cases ruining songs!), surely the lead vocal is the most noticeable
thing to your average punter if its not in tune? And if that means downtuning/getting the guitarist to use a capo etc then
thats what it takes.

[dincz]

[quote name='Johngh' timestamp='1344416619' post='1764018']What's the point in having a singer screeching their head off trying to hit notes whan you can just change key to get over it
[/quote]

Exactly how I feel about it, but in this case it's the singer who won't change key because of his pride. He's not much of a singer even within his range but catastrophic when he stretches his top end.

[JTUK]

the worst thing to want to have to hear is a 'singer' struggling for notes..... it moves the band towards crap status quicker than anything...
If they can't pickup on this then they deserve to loose gigs and an audience...which they probably wont have much anyway

[kevin_lindsay]

I've never had s problem changing key. I started my playing in church in my teens, that taught me to change key on a whim, sometimes mid-tune.

I guess it gave me a mindset where I just try and adapt to whatever the lead instrument requires.

[fretmeister]

[quote name='BigAlonBass' timestamp='1344361658' post='1763394']
Detune the whole Band to Eflat without telling him. He'll think his voice has suddenly improved!
[/quote]

This. Or even D.

The punters won't notice and after a few weeks neither will you.

[jezzaboy]

In the acdc project I was involved in, we dropped everything down a half step. You don`t notice it when the whole band is playing and I think that you should try and help the singer anyway you can.

Unless he is a to*ser of course!

Edited August 8, 2012 by jezzaboy

[Dave Vader]

[quote name='musophilr' timestamp='1344372386' post='1763702']
You're being mean. I'm a guitarist who always uses std tuning, and rarely uses a capo. I can play most things in most places. Our band tries the original key, and changes it if the singers need to. I also play keys (a little) ... thankfully the machine has a transpose function
[/quote]

Yep. Me too, though I often find one should not be ashamed to use a capo, sometimes there is only one chord shape that will sound right, and if you don't have enough fingers, it will be horrid.
I have often seen the faces of scorn as I slap a capo on my strat after dropping the E to a D for the Chain. I laugh them off as i play Lindsey Buckingham's lovely bluesy verse riffs without all the stumbly crap you get from guys too proud to capo up.
(before whipping it off for the solo obviously).
Change keys, if the singer can't make the note, you will sound sh*t, i have worked with guys like this before, they are idiots, and need to learn their own limitations.

[xgsjx]

Sack your singer & get someone who can sing in any key!


Only kidding.


After reading all this thread, I'm trying to envision AC/DC with the capo on the 6th fret!

[cytania]

When I sing I often feel the magnetic pull of the original pitch, even though I know I sing it lower/higher. Takes real singing chops not to fall back to the original you hear in your head. Have seen others have this trouble in folk clubs and can't say I overcome it. Luckily I just play bass in current band and our singers appear immune to the draw of original pitch. I often make sure I learn a baseline free of open string notes so I can shift it up or down in rehearsals.

[ben604]

We downtuned the lot to E flat for one gig to try and help us out with God Gave Rock...I found it quite difficult as I've obviously got the muscle memory for the higher tuning, so we were all over the show! We haven't tried it again and rely on the crowd to help us with the 2nd chorus haha

Maybe after a couple of practices it would be fine, but we're dropping songs rather than changing key.

[TimR]

This is one thing that really frustrates me. The idea of equal temperament was that it allowed instruments to be played in any key. What it doesn't allow you to do is transpose from any key to any other key. It's an approximation and a tune in the key in A has a different sound to a tune in the key of C. Not just pitch. Otherwise singer/songwriters would always write songs in one key.

Reserve transposing for soloists who have to sing a certain song in a show, not for songs you will be playing for weeks on end.

I've found it can often lead to several problems:
1. The singer starts to want everything transposed to 'his/her' key and you end up with a bland set-list with everything in more or less the same key.
2. They start using it as an excuse not to sing certain songs when you get fed up with transposing and decide to stand your ground.
3. You waste time spending hours trying to find a key that fits their range but also sounds good.
4. Somebody decides to practice at home to an MP3 on the day of the gig, and a car crash results. This happened to me with 3 false starts on We Are The Champions because the keyboard player had been practising the intro at home on the day of a big gig. That's a really exposed start to mess things up on, with no way to recover!

I would always advocate if the singer struggles with a song then choose another song, there are millions out there.

Edited August 8, 2012 by TimR

[PaulC57]

When you work with different singers who do standards they often are a tone or semitone different because that key suits their voice and also there are male songs done by females and vica versa. We as accompanying musicians need to go with that and also it keeps us on our toes. Some songs I agree have instrumental idiosynchrasis because of the way the composer wrote it with open strings or chord shapes but there's nothing like the dreaded moment you know that is coming when vox is going to strain and struggle and you end up looking at the floor or your fingers!!!!!!!!!
Not sure if I have answered the question or just agreed with nearly everyone!!!!!!

[Commando Jack]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1344451544' post='1764845']
I've found it can often lead to several problems:
1. The singer starts to want everything transposed to 'his/her' key and you end up with a bland set-list with everything in more or less the same key.
2. They start using it as an excuse not to sing certain songs when you get fed up with transposing and decide to stand your ground.
3. You waste time spending hours trying to find a key that fits their range but also sounds good.
4. Somebody decides to practice at home to an MP3 on the day of the gig, and a car crash results. This happened to me with 3 false starts on We Are The Champions because the keyboard player had been practising the intro at home on the day of a big gig. That's a really exposed start to mess things up on, with no way to recover!
[/quote]

The only time any of these things have happened to me is when the singer was an unprofessional twit who couldn't communicate. The last one has never happened to me, but who would practise at home in a different key?

[WalMan]

We play detuned to Eb, which helps, and then adjust tunings to fit after that. That does then mean that some songs are not feasible at the end of the day.

You could always get one of these
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgciodHZmbk

[ras52]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1344451544' post='1764845']

1. The singer starts to want everything transposed to 'his/her' key and you end up with a bland set-list with everything in more or less the same key.

[/quote]

Hm, I don't agree that everything ends up in the same key. It's more about making sure everything is in the same [i]range [/i]for the singer.

For example, I've been playing with a band whose singer's usable range goes up to B. So if the song peaks on the fifth of the scale, we arrange it in E. If it peaks on the major 3rd, we play it in G. Etc...

IME it's the guitarist who doesn't want to change key - and I find it weird that capos are commonplace on acoustics but looked down upon on electrics.

[mart]

[quote name='ras52' timestamp='1345049705' post='1772902']
Hm, I don't agree that everything ends up in the same key. It's more about making sure everything is in the same [i]range [/i]for the singer.....
[/quote]
I agree that it's the [i]range[/i] that matters, not the key, but I suspect the point still stands: if all your songs are in the same range (especially if that range is narrow), then they may all sound a little samey.

But I don't think that's a good enough reason to force the singer outside of their natural range. Samey songs surely sound better than screechy singing.

And, fwiw, in all the bands I play we transpose all over the place according to what our singers prefer.

[Monckyman]

We just had this last night.
Usually it`s not a problem, the guitard doesn`t mind transposing.
Last night was Roxanne by the Police, which is in G,and it soon became obvious our singer couldn`t reach it and we settled upon E.
Guitard was deeply upset after spending a week getting those chords to "sit just right".
He played the opening chords in G, sounded great.
Tried the same shape in E and it sounded like London Calling : )
However, sounding like London Calling is far preferable to sounding like a Bee Gee on acid.

[ras52]

However, the Bee Gees on acid playing London Calling...

[andrewrx7]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1344361189' post='1763381']
We change the key. We're bad enough without having the singer struggling as well.
[/quote]

Hahaha! That sounds familiar!

[The Dark Lord]

[quote name='rogerstodge' timestamp='1344362778' post='1763428']
We've (or they have) changed the key to "no more heroes" so i can't do that lovely open g Burnel intro, we do it in A now.
[/quote]

We do that one too ...... but in the original key ( G ) and I delight in doing the JJ Intro.

However !!!!!! The 4th string isn't used in that song*** ..... so you could tune it up a couple of notes for that one. Okay, you'd then have trouble doing the "F C" "double-stop at the end of the intro ..... but even JJ doesn't always to that.


[i]*** [size=3]Okay so it is used for just one note which is part of a double stop at the end of the intro, but it's the other note ( C ) which is the important one of the two.[/size][/i]

Edited October 5, 2012 by The Dark Lord

[TimR]

[quote name='mart' timestamp='1345113424' post='1773620']
I agree that it's the [i]range[/i] that matters, not the key, but I suspect the point still stands: if all your songs are in the same range (especially if that range is narrow), then they may all sound a little samey.

But I don't think that's a good enough reason to force the singer outside of their natural range. Samey songs surely sound better than screechy singing.

And, fwiw, in all the bands I play we transpose all over the place according to what our singers prefer.
[/quote]

I imagine that the narrower the range the fewer keys are available to play in. In the rare (2 cases) that happened to me the singers were eventually asked to leave. Lesson learned - get a singer who can sing. It's a bit like having a bass player who only plays on the first octave. Most of us play 2 regularly and occasionally step up into the third.

[Doddy]

I don't think it's a case of having 'a singer who can sing'. I work with a couple of really good singers and when you are doing
3 or 4 sets a night for 4 months solid you don't want them to be straining much. It isn't even a matter of just dropping the key-
sometimes you need to take it up a couple of keys,you need to be aware of this if you are playing that often. There are times when
it doesn't sound right,but generally changing key is no big deal.
Out of interest,none of the people I work with regularly ever tune down.

[TimR]

I'm thinking someone who has a range of more than an octave and a half. I think most pop singers can manage 2 octaves considering they're mic'ed up. If someone claims they can sing and only has an octave range, you're in trouble.