New pots saved my bass!

[KiOgon]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1344503628' post='1765440']
A lot of players may find this a worthwhile upgrade.


[/quote]
I think you'll find that comes under maintenance, not an upgrade as such

[LukeFRC]

Warning: I can't spell.

The capacatance value of pots is small enough to ignore right?

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='Stacker' timestamp='1344500183' post='1765361']
My tuppenth worth, here: the quality of the hook-up wire used between pots and the quality of the solder (and soldering technique) used are significant contributing factors to how a harness performs.
[/quote]

There is an element of truth regarding a decent solder job. Dry or incomplete joints can act as unwanted resistance in a circuit.
There is no evidence that the "quality" of the wire, especially over such short distances is a contributing factor on tone.

I once did an on the spot repair during a gig for a guy who's guitar was breaking up, with blu-tac and the tin-foil from a sweetie. It lasted the gig and sounded like a guitar.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='KiOgon' timestamp='1344500825' post='1765374']
You have no idea if the air is the same or not if you haven't tested it, yes it might have started the same but after different compressor, filters, etc. even the pressure may well be more accurate on the machine where you have to pay 20p.
[/quote]

What has that got to do with loom type A allegedly sounding better that all other versions? I'm sorry bud but I can not be challenged with airy-fairyness against practical everyday electronics and fundamental facts. Have I tested the air? How ridiculous is that.

Regarding the rest of your quote above, fair enough you could (having "tested the air") claim that the 20p air dispenser (pot type A - CTS perhaps) gives a better pressure reading than the free air dispenser (bog standard pot but that is just confirming that pot A is more accurate (which is what I've said all along). But as you should know an accurate sweep doesn't equate to clarity of tone. It just means that a more accurate amount of the signal is sent to earth.... and more to the point still only means that (say it is a 500k pot) a quality pot has a better chance of giving you exactly 500k at the end of the sweep and closer to 0 at the start than a cheap job could.


[quote name='KiOgon' timestamp='1344500825' post='1765374']
Wrong again.
[/quote]

Please clarify.
Is 250k ohms (to use Luke's example) from a cheap pot any different to 250k ohms in a dearer one? - and before we cover the accuracy point again, we're not talking final destination, we're talking sweeping it around to 250 (or 50 or 27 or 326 k ohms) as defined by a multimeter. Are you claiming that one pot's 250k ohms sounds sweeter that another's?

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='bremen' timestamp='1344502143' post='1765402']
Highly pertinent, good man that Ethan.

Also: the quality of wire between pickup and jack does NOT have an effect on the sound (unless you know you've replaced 'inferior' wire with 'superior' wire). I believe there's a $1000000 dollar prize for anyone that can prove it does. Been on offer for years now and no-one's dared claim it.
[/quote]

Wa-hey at least someone watched it.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344500856' post='1765376']
But don't forget there is a manufacturing tolerance. Cheaper pots may have a wider tolerance (Or not close to the stamp mark at all) where as a better quality one might be closer to the stated resistance.

From what I have been told thats were the problem comes with cheap stuff.[/quote]

Absolutely right. No argument there. And as we know the accuracy of a pot has no bearing on the sound which is being passed through it.

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344500856' post='1765376']
I'm not saying going from a half decent pot to a CTS pot will give an audible difference. [/quote]

Cool.

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344500856' post='1765376']
Or every time you swap out a cheap ass pot you will get a difference. [/quote]

Uh-huh.

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344500856' post='1765376']
But if you were taking a sample of cheap ass pots and compare them to a sample of decent made pots in a number of cases there will be an audible difference.[/quote]

Woah! You just said it wouldn't.

What you may find (more than likely than not) is that your sample of decent pots will give an overall more consistent ohms readings than the cheap ones do... but you can't say they will sound any different. They do not impart anything to the sound in a guitar circuit, they simply direct parts of the signal to earth.


[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344500856' post='1765376']For all the price on a set of half decent pots is it really worth keeping the cheap ass nasty mini pots in a bass?
[/quote]

Absolutely, they don't cost that much do they. And they may even last a bit longer too.... but as the saying goes, if it ain't broke...
In that majority of cases, providing the pots are functioning correctly (no crackles, corroded tracks etc) then a quick refresh of the solder points and a skoosh of switch cleaner can bring the crappiest old loom back to life.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1344503628' post='1765440']
A lot of players may find this a worthwhile upgrade.


[/quote]

Imagine how many units you could punt if you could get an "expert" to say that it actually lubricates the tone flowing into your ears too.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1344513115' post='1765663']
Warning: I can't spell.

The capacatance value of pots is small enough to ignore right?
[/quote]

I haven't the foggiest... but I imagine that the difference in capacitance between cheap pots and expensive pots is.

[bremen]

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1344514238' post='1765703']
I haven't the foggiest... but I imagine that the difference in capacitance between cheap pots and expensive pots is.
[/quote]

The capacitance of a pot is negligible compared to that of the pickups, tone control cap and cables, yes. However much it cost.

re. the Ethan Winer clip, it's a favourite. Have you visited his site, tons of zero-bullshit information on acoustics, eq and much else.

[bremen]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344514679' post='1765727']
Well if bad solder joints and increased resistance will affect the sound why won't the resistance of the wire and components?


[/quote]

The resistance of wire is so small compared to the rest of the circuitry, and at the tiny currents generated by pickups, that it has an effect approaching zero. You or I (and I have some £££ worth of test gear here) couldn't measure the diffrence in resistance between 10cm of the cheapest wire available and some cryogenically-treated oxygen-free Litz snakeoil gimmick (yours for £999 per metre, guaranteed to turn you into Wooton).

[Bassman Rich]

To try bring this to a conclusion, If my bass sounded dull or quiet, I would turn the volume and tone (Precisions are so simple!!!) up full.

Surely, that means that whatever the resistance/capacitance of the pot, the whole of the signal is going straight down the wire to the jack, and into the amp?

Or is the 250/500 k ohms of the pot effectively in parallel to this signal going into the amp, and somehow taking some of the signal to ground?

[bremen]

[quote name='Bassman Rich' timestamp='1344515801' post='1765758']


Or is the 250/500 k ohms of the pot effectively in parallel to this signal going into the amp, and somehow taking some of the signal to ground?
[/quote]

Yes.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344514679' post='1765727']
Well if bad solder joints and increased resistance will affect the sound why won't the resistance of the wire and components?[/quote]
Can you tell me the resistance of a piece of wire say 4cm long please?

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344514679' post='1765727']
I may be wrong but I've told There is no point in it's rotation a 500k pot simulates a 250k pot something to do with the resistance to ground or something.
[/quote]

Try this. Connect a 500k pot up to a multimeter. Start at 0 and turn it up. Did you see 250 at any point?

[chrismuzz]

How about if you turned the tone knob all the way up on both pots, but one of them was made cheaply/badly/inaccurately? Surely that could potentially prevent one of the pots from ever being able to be 'on full'? Just a thought.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344514821' post='1765732']
Ahh yes it does. A 500K pot sounds different to a 250k pot to a 50meg pot.

Otherwise we might as well just use the same pot all the time. There would be just one standard pot used in everything from a les paul to a stingray.
[/quote]

That's a different issue again bud. You are talking about the resistance not the accuracy.
It seems the root of this argument is in not being able to differentiate between these two terms?

[bremen]

[quote name='chrismuzz' timestamp='1344516166' post='1765767']
How about if you turned the tone knob all the way up on both pots, but one of them was made cheaply/badly/inaccurately? Surely that could potentially prevent one of the pots from ever being able to be 'on full'? Just a thought.
[/quote]

I't have to be seriously broken for that to be the case, and would need to be replaced. The only way I can think of hobbling a pot so it can't be turned fully up is by jamming the spindle so it can't be turned all the way, or snapping it so it's uncoupled from the wiper.They're very simple and easily understood, mechanically and electrically.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='bremen' timestamp='1344515113' post='1765740']
The capacitance of a pot is negligible compared to that of the pickups, tone control cap and cables, yes. However much it cost.

re. the Ethan Winer clip, it's a favourite. Have you visited his site, tons of zero-bullshit information on acoustics, eq and much else.
[/quote]

I thought as much.
(I was agreeing with Luke - but when I see my quote quoted here (away from his) it isn't that clear).

Yeah some real interesting stuff there eh.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='Bassman Rich' timestamp='1344515801' post='1765758']...
Or is the 250/500 k ohms of the pot effectively in parallel to this signal going into the amp, and somehow taking some of the signal to ground?
[/quote]

Correctomondo
It does not add anything.

[The Dark Lord]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1344428607' post='1764275']
They now sound punchy as hell with the neck pickup sounding round, fat and precisionlike ......
[/quote]

Conclusive proof, here, that Precisions sound better Jazzes.

[chrismuzz]

[quote name='bremen' timestamp='1344516399' post='1765773']
I't have to be seriously broken for that to be the case, and would need to be replaced. The only way I can think of hobbling a pot so it can't be turned fully up is by jamming the spindle so it can't be turned all the way, or snapping it so it's uncoupled from the wiper.They're very simple and easily understood, mechanically and electrically.
[/quote]

Probably yes, unless the track wasn't aligned properly to begin with. As unlikely as that is!

I can fully appreciate that all pots should work the same due to their simple design, and should have zero effect on tone... However I still believe that it is possible to make them badly and therefore not have as clear a signal.

Then again the OP's pots could just have been ultra filthy

[chrismuzz]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1344516801' post='1765785']
Conclusive proof, here, that Precisions sound better Jazzes.
[/quote]

I refuse to believe that a Precision sounds more like a Jazz than a Jazz!

[Stacker]

[quote name='bremen' timestamp='1344502143' post='1765402']
Highly pertinent, good man that Ethan.

Also: the quality of wire between pickup and jack does NOT have an effect on the sound (unless you know you've replaced 'inferior' wire with 'superior' wire). I believe there's a $1000000 dollar prize for anyone that can prove it does. Been on offer for years now and no-one's dared claim it.
[/quote]

Perhaps I should have said 'gauge' rather than quality. Surely there's a contributing factor?

[bremen]

[quote name='Stacker' timestamp='1344517478' post='1765804']
Perhaps I should have said 'gauge' rather than quality. Surely there's a contributing factor?
[/quote]

Nope, not at the tiny currents involved.

And yes, Johnson, when you re-wired your old bass with wire stripped from 3 core it didn't make a difference.

I make my living from electronics, fwiw, and I'm talking about what happens electrically. What one hears depends to a large extent on what happens electrically but also, as Mr Winer demonstrated, on what one expects or wants to hear.

edited for appalling grammar

Edited August 9, 2012 by bremen

[Stacker]

Ok, those were the only parts of my argument on this topic so I'll bow out and just observe. Good discussion!

[bremen]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344520310' post='1765857']
I wasn't expecting to hear anything though when I put new pots on mine.

I really only changed them because the difference in tone was negligible between open and closed. And any change that happened was at one extreme and like a switch.

[/quote]

Sounds like a break in the track.

[quote]

500k to 250k and more treble which seems to against all convention of what the Pot ratings should do.
[/quote]

250k will deliver more treble than 500k at less-than-full volume, as the series resistance into the capacitance of the cable is less. At full volume there may be marginally less treble depending on the pickup (500k is usually only required for high impedance humbuckers and even then probably not necessary for a bass) but probably not noticeable.