New pots saved my bass!

[LukeFRC]

Guys dont want to excite anyone, but my warwick's pots cost 3 times a cts pot and sound 3 times as good.

[bremen]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344522684' post='1765915']
[url="http://www.axesrus.com/axeElectronicsPots.htm#Alpha"]http://www.axesrus.c...sPots.htm#Alpha[/url]


I would take that as 500k being more treble than 250k

But sure these things don't make a difference anyway.
[/quote]

With the greatest of respect to a company that sells guitar parts for a living, that's a tad oversimplified. I notice they don't explain their reasons for that statement. So I shall.

If you take a high impedance pickup and try a 250k, a 500k and then a 1M pot at FULL VOLUME , then you will get slightly increasing high end with each substitution. That's because they are loading the inductive pickup less.

However, as soon as you turn the volume down somewhat the capacitance of the cable (the long one between the guitar and amp, not the internal wire) becomes far more significant. You know how as you turn the volume down, the treble rolls off also? That effect is far less with a lower resistance pot.

So in our example, at half-resistance the 250k pot is equivalent to 125k in series with the cable. The 1M pot offers four times that, meaning that the HF rolloff starts two octaves lower.

I don't have a guitar lead handy to measure its capacitance, but making a conservative guess of 100pF (likely to be a lot more once the input stage of the amp is taken into account) that gives a -3dB point of 3kHz for the 1 meg pot and 12kHz for the 250k.

That's science, that is

[bremen]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1344523476' post='1765933']
Guys dont want to excite anyone, but my warwick's pots cost 3 times a cts pot and sound 3 times as good.
[/quote]

You've tried cts pots in your Warwick?

[bremen]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344524332' post='1765947']
So the resistance of a pot makes a difference.

and if a cheap pot can be 25% out of it's stated resistance then swapping for a better one closer to the actual rating will make a difference.

[/quote]

You sure do know how to twist a man's words. Are you a lawyer?

Most pots, and I don't know what your new pots are, are 20% tolerance anyway. And a pickup isn't designed to run into a specific impedance, so that if said impedance is wrong it affects the tone. I just demonstrated that a lower impedance pot will allow more top in a real world situation, when not turned up to full. When turned up to full, it would have to be a ridiculously out-of-spec pot to make any difference to the loading of the pup.

[quote]

Oh and by they way to a previous thing it was only a break if all three pots had a break in the same place which I think is unlikely.
[/quote]

Pots do fail at one end of their travel or the other more than in mid-track. Anyway, sounds like the previous pots were knackered/dirty/tired rather than 'cheap'.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344524332' post='1765947']
So the resistance of a pot makes a difference.

and if a cheap pot can be 25% out of it's stated resistance then swapping for a better one closer to the actual rating will make a difference.

Oh and by they way to a previous thing it was only a break if all three pots had a break in the same place which I think is unlikely.
[/quote]

The reason we use 250k or 500k pots is because those are the pots which are readily available that are "close enough" for the job. It would be a scary universe indeed if guitars ONLY worked with these exact value pots. It could be that your specific bass would sound best with a 315k pot but try finding a decent supply of them.

A quality pot will have a better chance of being closer to it's intended rating that says a cheaper job with a wider tolerance would, although it would be very foolish indeed to write off all cheap ones as not being be accurate as with modern production techniques this gap is closing, but even if a cheap one is as improbably far out as 25% it could still be in an acceptable range for your instrument. Just because it's traditional to use a 250k it doesn't mean that you need 0-250 per se.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='bremen' timestamp='1344523695' post='1765938']
You've tried cts pots in your Warwick?
[/quote]

no. the MEC ones are diddy, and green and therefore better!


look at these... if we buy more than 4 we get a discount! http://www.banzaimusic.com/Alessandro-SS-250k-log-Guitar-Pot.html

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='bremen' timestamp='1344525131' post='1765964']
You sure do know how to twist a man's words. Are you a lawyer?
....
[/quote]

Haha I've been here with Johnston a couple of times now. (eh mate ) He's as dogmatic as the day is long. And probably has missed a grand vocation in law.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1344528036' post='1766040'] The reason we use 250k or 500k pots is because those are the pots which are readily available that are "close enough" for the job. It would be a scary universe indeed if guitars ONLY worked with these exact value pots. It could be that your specific bass would sound best with a 315k pot but try finding a decent supply of them. A quality pot will have a better chance of being closer to it's intended rating that says a cheaper job with a wider tolerance would, although it would be very foolish indeed to write off all cheap ones as not being be accurate as with modern production techniques this gap is closing, but even if a cheap one is as improbably far out as 25% it could still be in an acceptable range for your instrument. Just because it's traditional to use a 250k it doesn't mean that you need 0-250 per se. [/quote]

my Yamaha SG uses 300k for the tone pots....
Warwick told me I need a 220k MN blend pot.... (into a 500k vol)

really there going to be much difference between 220k and 250k?

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1344528238' post='1766046']....
look at these... if we buy more than 4 we get a discount! [url="http://www.banzaimusic.com/Alessandro-SS-250k-log-Guitar-Pot.html"]http://www.banzaimus...Guitar-Pot.html[/url]
[/quote]

Wow and even at that price still no mention of how special the tone is.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1344528522' post='1766059']
Wow and even at that price still no mention of how special the tone is.
[/quote]

mate. if you have to ask you obviously don't *know* do you.

tut tut

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1344528501' post='1766057']
my Yamaha SG uses 300k for the tone pots....
Warwick told me I need a 220k MN blend pot.... (into a 500k vol)

[b]really there going to be much difference between 220k and 250k?[/b]
[/quote]

Just stick in a cheap 250 you might get lucky that it's so crap that it can only go up to 220.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344528904' post='1766074']
No one has said you have to use a certain pot value. But if the pot value alters the sound of the instrument then swapping pots like for like when one is closer to the intended value will make a difference.

so swapping by pot that reads 634k for one that reads 493K will likely give an audible change. Even though they both say 500K

Ergo swapping cheap pots out for better ones can alter the tone.

Add in cheap sh*t wire with a higher resistance than good quality stuff and no one say that all wire has the same resistance because it hasn't.

Oh and I have too much of a conscience for law
[/quote]

Of course half of this only matters on passive basses.....

[Stacker]

Gentlemen!!

I said I wouldn't post again on this contentious topic but aren't we forgetting something? Our EARS! They are enough: they are what makes us choose between a Rick, a Fender Jazz, a Precision or an Alembic. And what we choose to shove them through, pedal-wise, rack-wise, amp-wise. You like what you hear and you can tell everyone else to go to Hell!

Edited August 9, 2012 by Stacker

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Stacker' timestamp='1344538515' post='1766245']
Gentlemen!!

I said I wouldn't post again on this contentious topic but aren't we forgetting something? Our EARS! They are enough: they are what makes us choose between a Rick, a Fender Jazz, a Precision or an Alembic. And what we choose to shove them through, pedal-wise, rack-wise, amp-wise. You like what you hear and you can tell everyone else to go to Hell!
[/quote] did you watch the vid ou7shined linked to?

[Stacker]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1344539124' post='1766255']
did you watch the vid ou7shined linked to?
[/quote]

No. Whilst I appreciate his posting the vid, my life is too short. Waay too short!

Man, this new Firebird I've just bought sounds great!

[Stacker]

This is starting to become like the Hartley Peavey/Aspen Pitman BS session on valves back in the early '90s.....

Seriously, guys. At the end of the day, listen to your ears. If you don't, some **** is taking up your time and making money out of it!

Cyaz.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Stacker

[bremen]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344527362' post='1766017']
Well is 25% ridiculously out of spec?
[/quote]
No.

[quote]
The new ones, no idea either just they are full size and within 10k of the stated rating. The old ones 100 and something K .

But would you not say a cheaper pot is more likely to be at the higher end of the tolerance than a better spec one.

[/quote]

Not necessarily.
[quote]

And again all 3 pots on a bass showing the exact same symptoms?

[/quote]

Why not, all the same age, all exposed to the same amount of smoke and sweat

[quote]

I'll go out later and pull the minis that came out of a stag and see what they say.
[/quote]

[bremen]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344528904' post='1766074']
No one has said you have to use a certain pot value. But if the pot value alters the sound of the instrument then swapping pots like for like when one is closer to the intended value will make a difference.
[/quote]

That's a bit of a leap. As I stated earlier, pickups aren't at their best into a specific value of pot. The pot value is a compromise, and a very rough one, of how much load the pickup can take (this depends on the impedance of the pickup; humbuckers are higher than single coil) and how much we care about the effect of the cable when not turned full up. The guitar designer doesn't know how capacitative the cable is, so it's always going to be a very rough guess at the best value. And just to confuse things further, using a wireless transmitter instead of a cable minimises the loading effect so the 'best' value pot would be the highest.

[quote]

so swapping by pot that reads 634k for one that reads 493K will likely give an audible change. Even though they both say 500K

[/quote]

Almost certainly wouldn't, no. As I stated earlier the loading effect of the pot on the pickup is less significant than the loading effect of the cable on the pot.

[quote]

Ergo swapping cheap pots out for better ones can alter the tone.

[/quote]

As the statement you deduced that from isn't true, ergo neither is that one.

[quote]

Add in cheap sh*t wire with a higher resistance than good quality stuff and no one say that all wire has the same resistance because it hasn't.

[/quote]

Two things here.

1. No, not all wire has the same resistance. But as I asserted earlier, neither you nor I (and, you'll remember, I work in electronics and have a lab full of test gear) could measure the difference between 10cm of the cheapest hook-up wire from a Chinese bike light, an equivalent length of solid silver oxygen free organically grown harvested-by-unicorns snakeoil wire or the lump of twin-and-earth you have left over from your cooker installation. All will be comfortably less than a hundredth of an ohm.

2. For a series wire to have any audible attenuation effect on an audio signal, it would have to be at least a tenth of the load it's driving. In the worst-case, let's assume a 250k pot. So for the wire to audibly drop the level, it'd have to be 25000 ohms, not 0.01 ohms. I'd say that was a fair safety margin

[quote]Oh and I have too much of a conscience for law
[/quote]

Imagine the time you could free up to study it though, if you were even 3dB less tenacious in Basschat debates

If you're interested in the figures I've used above, and I know you are, may I recomment The Art of Electronics by Horowitz and Hill, and/or an online electronics tutorial? Potential dividers, impedance and capacitive/inductive reactance (the stuff you need to understand the interactions of the components in a guitar) are covered pretty early in a course and aren't difficult to grasp without maths if the tutor is any good.

[bremen]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344540823' post='1766287']


Or another thing. How come a guitar sounds different if there is no tone pot than when the tone pot is full open? Surely if it's full open and no resistance it shouldn't affect things?
[/quote]

When the tone pot is fully open it's still 250k (or whatever) in series with the cap, so still has some load on it. Some tone pots have a push-pull to completely remove them from the circuit.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344540823' post='1766287']
I'm watching it now.

so far i actually agree with a lot of it. Just likethe way I say that Lindy Fralins claim that Parafin wax is better than candle wax is only better because it's cheaper but they aren't going to say that.

But that doesn't take away from when you change a signal path it can affect the signal.

Just because in some cases people hear what they want to hear or expect the hear doesn't mean it is always so.
[/quote]
No but it does mean we have to take it into consideration.
[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344540823' post='1766287']
For instance I was expecting to love the tone of the Trace Elliot bought. Going on the video I should hear less mud than my 15" Fender combo. Except I don't I actually don't like the TE.[/quote] A lot of people don't like Trace Gear. but that irrelevant
[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344540823' post='1766287']
In the bass I swapped the Pups out of I was expecting little or indeed no change but I hear a definite change. All EQ flat on the amp BTW.[/quote] did you swap the pups or the pots? or both? of course you'll hear a difference with pups, no one is debating that.
[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344540823' post='1766287']
None of this takes away from the fact the cheap components are cheap and not as reliable as the better stuff. This stuff is sitting directly in the signal path. It's not like a power cord that is no where near the actual signal path. Or a CD demagnitiser . This is stuff directly in between the pick up and the speaker . Saying a resistor in the middle of all that won't affect it is like saying the magnet choice or wire in the pick up means nothing.[/quote] right from the start no one has doubted that a better made pot will be mechanically better. I bet a CTS pot will be working in 20 years when the cheaper ones have given up the ghost, I expect them to be smoother and more accurate on the taper. No one doubts that!
There are two things here- a pickup - which everyone knows has so many variables in construction and magnetic behaviour and electronic behaviour. So pickups are different.
But a resistor is a passive component. A circuit with a resistor in it will more or less act the same regardless of the type of resistor PROVIDING the value is the same. So if I have a box of metal film resistors from maplin or somewhere, made by different people even and all of the same value (within the tolerances) then if I put one of them in the signal path of my pickups.. then they all should sound the same.
Equally a potentiometer is no different than a non-vairable resistor and should in theory sound the same. It it doesn't- why doesn't it?
[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344540823' post='1766287']
Would any one say that the magnet in the pick up has no affect, because at the end of the day they are all magnets just like all pots are just pots.[/quote] a better analogy would be jack sockets. They carry the signal path, and mechanically some are way better than others.... but they should all sound the same.
[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344540823' post='1766287']
Or another thing. How come a guitar sounds different if there is no tone pot than when the tone pot is full open? Surely if it's full open and no resistance it shouldn't affect things?
[/quote] I thought fully open was the stated resistance- so a open one is going to give 250k ohms or whatever up to full shut which is infinite resistance. Or at least that's how I thought it worked.

Interesting sideline.... In amps some people favour carbon comp resistors over metal film as they are more irregular and as the voltage can effect the resistance of them causing distortions. thats my little resistor based thing I remember from making stuff.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344545487' post='1766358']
I will take their word over it
[/quote]

which is great, but what's the scientific explanation in this example? can you ask them- audio difference between makes of identically specced variable resistors.

[gjones]

Do any doubters want those sh*tty pots of mine? They can put them in their custom shop £3,000 Jazz bass and see if they can hear any audible difference.

That should end the debate.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344545487' post='1766358']
... When these two guys who I know have knowledge will not use cheap components because they cannot guarantee their effects on an electrical circuit. I will go with their wisdom. One of which has been involved in testing wire and components on electrical systems of engines. The other who has access to a very wide range of testing apparatus including stuff he is one of only a handful in the UK qualified to use.

I will take their word over it
[/quote]

Dude I'm sorry to say that you are confusing apples with oranges again. When you are building electronic circuits you have to try and use the best components with the tightest tolerances because each component is dependant on the last for it's signal - you build a board with a thousand components each working on the accumulated inaccuracies of it's previous counterparts then you could easily find your project up excrement creek without a suitable means of propulsion.

To describe a passive electric bass loom as "electronics" is to be honest stretching things a little... although we all do it. Let's face it we are talking about 60 year old technology here... in fact it's way older when you remove the application from guitars. The P bass circuit is about the most basic thing there is... it's so bloody basic that it doesn't even need a power source. All it is doing is exploiting the almost coincidental properties of variable resistors to be able to divert parts of an audio signal to earth.

It's quite funny that you are getting hung up on having to have the most accurate pots (of course it won't do any harm but for the purposes of this thread (expensive pots = better tone) it's simply unnecessary) because I'm just waiting for the same logic to be applied to oil and paper caps... old tech, less accurate, less reliable caps... ooh but they do sound better.

Edited August 10, 2012 by Ou7shined

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1344460571' post='1765052']


No that's slightly facetious. But continuing the analogy, when we are speaking about the musical response of pots you might as well be saying to your tyre guy "don't get the air for your tyres here, it's free. The garage round the corner charges 20p air... it's bound to be better".
[/quote]
Because it's actually £1 per wheel and is oxygen-free to help prevent the inside of the carcass from oxidising, thereby impairing durability and performance?

Seriously, though, consider other uses of audio components. Expensive bits of hifi amps? Volume pots, transformers and "power" capacitors. I bet serious mixing desk s don't compromise on the quality of their faders...

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344582133' post='1766595']
But is electric. As for power source it has it's own, thats how it works. Remove the power source and it's no longer an "Electric bass"

If it's not an albeit basic electronic circuit what is it? Black magic.? Do little elves or leprechauns carry the sound in jars with fairies they have caught all the way to the speaker? No it creates an electric signal which your amp amplifies. . Any change in the signal between pup and amp gets magnified. And with your current it's not going to take a lot to "Trip it up" [/quote]

Haha I knew you'd freak out at that bit.
But I credit you with enough intelligence for me not to have to got into any explanations of the voltage created by the pups. But yeah sarcasm aside it kind of is black magic... albeit entirely explainable by science.

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344582133' post='1766595'] If you are swapping supposed like for like parts out but your CTS pot you are taking out is actually on the money at 500K and putting a cheap and nasty that you say doesn't matter at over 625K (Half way on a 250K pot) that is something that is going to be magnified gawd knows how many times once it hits your amp.[/quote]

First off you'd have to be mental to intentionally fit something you consider to be "cheap and nasty" in your lovely bass. So let's try to keep things in perspective and not get over dramatic.

The pot will not magnify anything. In a passive circuit you can only remove stuff.

I honestly think you need to not over complicate this issue with the pots and try and let it sink in just how simple a job the pots do. They are not in charge of the sound they merely act as valves to prevent the whole of your signal running off to earth, which in essence is where it would rather be instead of going to your amp.

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344582133' post='1766595'] Hey, you might like the difference, you might not. But for me I would much rather put something in that is going to be close to the tried and tested rating. [/quote]

That's fine man. I do it myself. The whole point though is that it is not always necessary. And as I said before "the tried and tested rating " you want to stick so rigidly to is fairly arbitrary and chosen because those were simply the values that were at hand.

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344582133' post='1766595'] 'cause lets face it do you think SD or lindy look around for pots that are outside the normally used values when designing a pup, testing it through 630K pots. Or do you think they test new pups using the commonly used 250 and 500K pots? [/quote]

I'd imagine they'd go with the common values. It would be silly not to.

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344582133' post='1766595']
and again can you tell if your bass with a 250K tome pot is rolled off half way?
[/quote]

I suppose I could make a guess when it's half way. :/ What legal trap have you set for me by getting me to admit that?