KennysFord Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Hi Folks, Being a relative newcomer to Wedding/Function type gigs (in larger rooms than your average pub gig affair) I had a wee problem last night with my sound. We were on a 18" high wooden stage, I used a P Bass, Trace AH200 and my trusty Tech ND410S on a Gramma Pad, No PA Support. We used a pair of powered Mackie 12's for the PA, no subs. I had a great stage sound with good volume but when I went out front to the end of my 6m cable the Bass had pretty much disappeared. I added some more volume but it did'nt really have any affect out front. I didn't have any boom at all just no volume, weird ! I tried moving my cab around with no detectable differences. The room was a large barn conversion type deal with the high pointy ceiling and beams etc, not many punters. Is this normal in this scenario and how am I best approaching this in the future ? We were payed well so I'd like to do my best and have a good sound in future. Thanks for any tips and advice, Pete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bremen Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Was there a solid wall behind the stage? You can get a useful boost by backing the speaker as close as you can to the wall. I'd also try removing the Gramma, if boom isn't a problem, maybe get a bit of coupling to the stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pietruszka Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 I get this, as will everyone, you will need to crank your volume and bass end right up. The bottom end will disappear a lot more than you think, so you'll need to over compensate on stage for it to carry. The downside is you'll no doubt deafen everyone on stage which will makes things difficult for themselves to hear anything else. If you can, buy a sub. If not, hire one for the bigger gigs and put your bass through it. This will let you use your amp as more of a monitor as the PA will take most of the brunt. Until my band gets a sub this is what we do. The band acknowledge that the bass will be turned up on the gigs without a sub, and it will be lower for gigs with one. It's all compromise! Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassBunny Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Pete, I have had the same problem many a time and this is the eternal issue if you aren't going through FOH. No doubt you will get loads of advice, but what works for me is "More Mids". I find that mids are your friend in this situation as they help the bass sound carry and cut through. I also like to have just a tickle of bass DI'd through the PA just to give it a bit of help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KennysFord Posted August 13, 2012 Author Share Posted August 13, 2012 Hi Guys, Thanks all for the replies, Bremen, My cab was backed up, as close as the speakon would allow to a solid stone wall but It didn't cross my mind to try it without the Gramma to be honest. We were very rushed setting everything up so we basically had 10 minutes to soundcheck and tweak once the PA was up and running. Next time I'll try that. Stu and Dan, Like you say, I think Subs will be the order of the day for the future. I have two passive ones but they're massive and very heavy. I'll keep dropping hints that we ought to buy a powered Sub for the bigger rooms. I was worried about going through the PA as we just had the pair of 12's, I didn't want to get in the way of the vocals etc. I'll be cranking the Bass from now on until we get one hehe Cheers Guys. Pete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pietruszka Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 [quote name='kennyrodg' timestamp='1344854596' post='1770018'] Hi Guys, Thanks all for the replies, Bremen, My cab was backed up, as close as the speakon would allow to a solid stone wall but It didn't cross my mind to try it without the Gramma to be honest. We were very rushed setting everything up so we basically had 10 minutes to soundcheck and tweak once the PA was up and running. Next time I'll try that. Stu and Dan, Like you say, I think Subs will be the order of the day for the future. I have two passive ones but they're massive and very heavy. I'll keep dropping hints that we ought to buy a powered Sub for the bigger rooms. I was worried about going through the PA as we just had the pair of 12's, I didn't want to get in the way of the vocals etc. I'll be cranking the Bass from now on until we get one hehe Cheers Guys. Pete. [/quote] You wouldn't be 'getting in the way' of the vocals, I'd be more concerned about whether the 12's would be able to cope with bass. Try bass bunny's suggestion of putting a little bit through. I have RCF art 310A's so wouldn't put bass through them without a sub. Your passive subs will be fine as long as they have their own amp, perhaps take just one? Another option is to get your selves into a big room, school hall type thing, have a play about with the sound so you know what to expect/remedy next time. Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KennysFord Posted August 13, 2012 Author Share Posted August 13, 2012 Hi Dan, Sorry Bud, I should have been a bit more specific. I have 2/3/4 way crossover and a power amp for my passive jobbies. With my Blues band I tend to just use my own JBL's with 15's in them and that's usually fine for pub gigs, The Mackie's belong to the Wedding Band. What puts me off using my subs is the size and weight of the damn things hehe. It would be handier if the we could get a decent single powered one.... to save my back if nothing else. We have a gig this coming weekend in a fairly large pub so I might just have to bite the bullet and take 'em along for a try out. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottomE Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 I think you have hit on something thats a problem for all of us when there is no FOH. Stage sound is great till you move out front where the bass sound then varies according to where you stand in the room. You need to have understanding bandmates who will let you crankl the bass volume on stage AND KEEP THEIR VOLUME DOWN. I put that in caps because thats the hardest part. you can control your own volume but not that of your fellow musos. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 I`d just echo the other points really, best plan of attack being get a sub, and put everything through the pa. Doesn`t have to be louder than the backline, but then the sound will be balanced, and spread evenly. Interim measure, up the mids. It won`t sound very nice on stage, but it`s what the punters hear that counts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 (edited) Sounds like you're doomed by the acoustics of the venue. No amount of turning up the volume can get things louder in a null. What were the dimensions of the room? Relying on more mids than bass (ie around 2-400Hz rather than sub 200Hz) for more of your sound can get you away from this, but the ral solution is venues with decent acoustics (oh like that happens). Edited August 13, 2012 by 51m0n Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thumperbob 2002 Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 (edited) Yep- the most common problem with live bass sound. Best thing to do is have a pair of Subs- or one is better than none. However on a wedding gig, in a small venue this should not be a problem- have a discussion with your bandmates and agree to turn down a little. Then enhance the lower mids- 250 boosted and turn up a little. A bass amp of 300w should be able to deal with 100 punters- no problem. You will find that once you get a few bodies in- these people will effectively act as a buffer and will help the bass no end. If only a few punters- very difficult in a bad room. If your sound is at all scooped- you have had it. Boosting the mids on stage will sound a little strange at first but it is always better to be heard. Edited August 13, 2012 by thumperbob 2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomProddy Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 [quote name='thumperbob 2002' timestamp='1344872635' post='1770436'] You will find that once you get a few bodies in- these people will effectively act as a buffer and will help the bass no end. If only a few punters- very difficult in a bad room. If your sound is at all scooped- you have had it. Boosting the mids on stage will sound a little strange at first but it is always better to be heard. [/quote] Yep. Live bodies are rather good at sound absorption - and bear in mind that with an average weight of 60Kg per person, 100 people in a venue is 6 tons of sound-insulating material... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musophilr Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 [quote name='BassBunny' timestamp='1344853680' post='1769997'] what works for me is "More Mids". I find that mids are your friend in this situation as they help the bass sound carry and cut through. [/quote] ^ This ^ It constantly amazes me that people think the answer to not hearing the bass is "more bass". What defines the note - its pitch and its leading edge - is the mids. Natch the bass content is good to have, but without mids all you have is ... vlumpff - some nasty woolly muddy flubby kind of vlumpff that defines absolutely nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 [quote name='musophilr' timestamp='1344879277' post='1770589'] ^ This ^ It constantly amazes me that people think the answer to not hearing the bass is "more bass". What defines the note - its pitch and its leading edge - is the mids. Natch the bass content is good to have, but without mids all you have is ... vlumpff - some nasty woolly muddy flubby kind of vlumpff that defines absolutely nothing. [/quote] Agree. I`ve found that if I get a sound that is horribly nasal and scratchy, it just sits beautifully in the mix live, no flub, but no high-end zing either. It`s why I use a Schroeder cab - they just excel at sounding not particularly pleasant on their own, but in the mix, well you never get lost with one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris2112 Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 As mentioned above, mids can be the issue. If you can give them a bump, you can get your presence back in a room where you might sound swamped or lost. But then I find that P Basses can also suffer from this sometimes, often lacking any real articulation in the midrange, they will either go 'boom or bust'! But then some venues always sound terrible, and there is little more you can do than simply try and gloss over the naff sound the room generates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KennysFord Posted August 13, 2012 Author Share Posted August 13, 2012 Cheers Guys, Thanks for all the replies, it's very much appreciated and some food for thought. The room was approx 50 to 60ft long by about 30ft wide, barn conversion type room with a pretty high gable roof. A big area to fill with just a 410 I guess. My tone is usually scooped but I boosted the mids on the AH200's graphic eq to try and compensate. I've only ever played pub gigs before and in fairly small rooms and the Trace/Tech combo is usually fantastic. I've spoken to the guys today and as we have a (pub) gig this weekend albeit in a large room we're going to give my old thumpers a dust off to see if it helps. Thanks a lot guys, you've all been a great help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musophilr Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 I have never been in a situation where scooping the bass sound has been a good idea, although there may be some such situations outside of my experience ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bremen Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 [quote name='musophilr' timestamp='1344931478' post='1771115'] I have never been in a situation where scooping the bass sound has been a good idea, although there may be some such situations outside of my experience ... [/quote] Showing off in a music shop...that's about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musophilr Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 [quote name='bremen' timestamp='1344931852' post='1771119'] Showing off in a music shop...that's about it. [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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