Stingray Pickup Advice Needed

[timmchale2009]

Hi Guys

I have recently purchased a stunning 4 String Stingray 3EQ from this here forum, plays like a dream, punching lows, crisp mids but has that infamous lack of the top string cutting through. I have heard a few solutions to this issue and I have decided that the route I want to go down is changing the pickup and see if that makes any difference.

So really I am just asking for some of advice, I believe there are 2 main contenders Seymour Duncan and Nordstrand?! (Anyone know of anything else?)

What are the pros and cons of ceramic and alnico's?

Has anyone got any alternatives?!

Cheers

Tim

[tommorichards]

I know wizard make MM styles [url="http://www.wizardpickups.co.uk/shop.asp?category=Bass"]http://www.wizardpickups.co.uk/shop.asp?category=Bass[/url] however, im not sure what they sound like, but their other pups are dam decent.

Axesrus do one as well, [url="http://www.axesrus.com/AxeBassPup.html"]http://www.axesrus.com/AxeBassPup.html[/url] and their P bass pup is awesome, but once again, not sure of how it sounds.

Alnicos people say sound more like the original, and the ceramics are what are used in the sterling basses, and are a slightly different sound to "that" sound.

[Chris2112]

I have a SD Bassline humbucker in my Musicman Sabre based custom fretless. It sounds fantastic. In a fretted bass there is plenty of top end punch and sizzle. It sounds like just the sort of thing you're after.

[mep]

I assume you have read the fixes to the MM pup for this problem?

I had the same problem and fixed it really quickly and my Ray plays and sounds the biz.

The trick is to push the G string pup pole pieces in so they are flush with the main pup and then you can raise that end of the pup up so it is closer to the G string and you do not catch your fingers on them as they do tend to stick out a bit. It's worth a go before forking out cash on a replacement.

[nottswarwick]

Is it not also a characteristic of the preamp's voicing? I read somewhere that the treble is slightly muted in order to balance out slapping.

That could of course be tosh, but be sure that it is not a preamp issue.

[Musicman20]

Its just the nature of the beast. I haven't experienced it before and I've had a lot of Rays.

Changing the pups will change the character of the sound, which is the main reason Ray's are popular.

Make sure you keep the original!

[timmchale2009]

This is my second stingray and my previous one didn't have this "issue" I understand that the pickup plays a big part in that "stingray" sound. I just like my top end to cut through a bit more than it is currently.

With you having lots of Rays Musicman20 how dramatic would the change likely be? Would it be massively different or would it be subtle?

[stingrayPete1977]

I'm getting better at summing the fix up, raise the G side of the pup up as close as possible for you playing style then lower the E side until it gives a nice balance overall, that preamp has more than enough to replace anything you lose in lows rather than trying to get more high end. Job done, money saved and no resale issues

[timmchale2009]

Oooo ok I shall give that a whirl in which case.

[stingrayPete1977]

Seriously I have took all of mine from balanced to weak G all the way back to a weak E. Last time I did one in isolation the G was actually over powering once I tried it with a full band at rehearsal, keep the screwdriver handy for the final tweak

[stingrayPete1977]

Banging a set of 45s on or thicker if you already use them is often the advice given but it doesn't help unless you take the E down as you will be putting a 105 there which just gives the same problem, 45's are better but only if the pup is set right after.

See I have still waffled on

Edited August 13, 2012 by stingrayPete1977

[timmchale2009]

I've got 45's on it at the moment I'll have a tweak and see what I can do and let you know. Will i need to adjust the poles or owt?

[Musicman20]

[quote name='timmchale2009' timestamp='1344887780' post='1770728']
This is my second stingray and my previous one didn't have this "issue" I understand that the pickup plays a big part in that "stingray" sound. I just like my top end to cut through a bit more than it is currently.

With you having lots of Rays Musicman20 how dramatic would the change likely be? Would it be massively different or would it be subtle?
[/quote]

I've heard some pup changes in Ray's that make them sound quite different - some get close, but part of the attraction to Musicman basses, for me anyway, is that the pup, pre, etc, are already the best for the bass. That's all IMO though.

Try what Pete has mentioned, and good luck!

[stingrayPete1977]

I have never had to push the pole pieces in or out, some people push them out to try and make that string stronger others appear to push them in so the whole pickup can be raised up more. What are they like at the moment?

[Fat Rich]

I had the weak G problem, no amount of angling the pickup would solve it.

So basically:

Strings off
3 screws out from pickup cover
VERY carefully lift cover from pickup bobbins
Remove 4 large springs under pickups
Allow pickup bobbins to rest in the pickup cavity
Carefully press the pole pieces for the A and D strings until level with E and G pole pieces
Put 4 springs back under bobbins
Cover and screws back on
String up, set pickup pretty much level, possibly a little higher than before
Enjoy punchy G and extra oooomph from E.

Takes about 10-15 minutes, costs nothing.

[drTStingray]

Fat Rich, I've heard you talk about this before and no doubt it's worked for you. However, here's a point to consider.

The A and D poles are raised on the single H pick up version of the Stingray - and they usually come from the factory set up with the saddles of the A and D string slightly higher than the E and G - by this means, the pick up poles and saddles match the curvature of the fretboard of the bass - and the strings follow this curvature. By flattening the poles off you lose this (and also by setting the saddles so they are all in line this happens). The question here is whether the problem arises on basses which have been re-set up so the saddles are in line? Of course, the pick up should also be set so the G string poles and the E string are the correct distance from the bottom of the string (if you go on the Musicman bass forum, there's a sticky thread giving FAQs - one is the set up details for a Musicman bass and they tell you the correct pick up height).

[attachment=115594:15082010706.jpg]

I have a 2EQ (which is more mid scooped than a 3EQ) Ray - it's still set as factory settings - it does not have a 'weak' G sound - indeed recorded live, ambiently, it sits beautifully in a guitar heavy mix and the G string sounds great - on high fills on the D and G string it also sounds great.

Another case in point - I have a 3EQ Stingray Fretless H - that has a sweet 'patch' on the G string from about C (as 5th fret) to A (as 14th fret) - where holding a note it just swells to the most gorgeous fretless sound. It sounds just as you would expect a top quality fretless to sound - no weak G sound.

All this is with factory setting basses which have not been modded.

For those of you who believe the underlying sound of a Stingray is mostly EQ, put your ear to the top horn and play the bass acoustically - you get the underlying MM Stingray sound - the pick up and EQ just amplify that sound and as far as the EQ goes, tweaks up or down the parts of the frequency it affects - it's also interactive - boosting the treble affects the mids and lows and vice versa.........but beware...........it is possible to over scoop the sound on a Stingray and lose the strength (or at least as they sound on stage) of your higher strings..........beware also the sound guy who thinks all basses have a generic sound (usually Fender P.............).........so cuts the mids. Again, you will have too scooped a sound and the first thing you will notice is the higher strings sound thin.......and the bottom strings will be too bassy and overpower everything.

As Musicman 20 has said, if you do swap the pick up or EQ, make sure you keep the bits because modified Musicman basses do not sell as well as stock ones - they tend to be a bass that few people modify. Most who have them love them as they come from the factory.

Best of luck with your bass.

Edited August 14, 2012 by drTStingray

[Fat Rich]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1344903306' post='1770991']
Fat Rich, I've heard you talk about this before and no doubt it's worked for you. However, here's a point to consider.

The A and D poles are raised on the single H pick up version of the Stingray - and they usually come from the factory set up with the saddles of the A and D string slightly higher than the E and G - by this means, the pick up poles and saddles match the curvature of the fretboard of the bass - and the strings follow this curvature. By flattening the poles off you lose this (and also by setting the saddles so they are all in line this happens). The question here is whether the problem arises on basses which have been re-set up so the saddles are in line? Of course, the pick up should also be set so the G string poles and the E string are the correct distance from the bottom of the string (if you go on the Musicman bass forum, there's a sticky thread iving FAQs - one is the set up details for a Musicman bass and they tell you the correct pick up height).

[attachment=115594:15082010706.jpg]

I have a 2EQ (which is more mid scooped than a 3EQ) Ray - it's still set as factory settings - it does not have a 'weak' G sound - indeed recorded live, ambiently, it sits beautifully in a guitar heavy mix and the G string sounds great - on high fills on the D and G string it also sounds great.

Another case in point - I have a 3EQ Stingray Fretless H - that has a sweet 'patch' on the G string from about C (as 5th fret) to A (as 14th fret) - where holding a note it just swells to the most gorgeous fretless sound. It sounds just as you would expect a top quality fretless to sound - no weak G sound.

All this is with factory setting basses which have not been modded.

For those of you who believe the underlying sound of a Stingray is mostly EQ, put your ear to the top horn and play the bass acoustically - you get the underlying MM Stingray sound - the pick up and EQ just amplify that sound and as far as the EQ goes, tweaks up or down the parts of the frequency it affects - it's also interactive - boosting the treble affects the mids and lows and vice versa.........but beware...........it is possible to over scoop the sound on a Stingray and lose the strength (or at least as they sound on stage) of your higher strings..........beware also the sound guy who thinks all basses have a generic sound (usually Fender P.............).........so cuts the mids. Again, you will have too scooped a sound and the first thing you will notice is the higher strings sound thin.......and the bottom strings will be too bassy and overpower everything.

As Musicman 20 has said, if you do swap the pick up or EQ, make sure you keep the bits because modified Musicman basses do not sell as well as stock ones - they tend to be a bass that few people modify. Most who have them love them as they come from the factory.

Best of luck with your bass.
[/quote]


Ok, maybe I should make it clear, if you're happy with the string to string output balance on your Stingray, don't do the mod! There seem to be plenty of people who are totally happy with their Rays, but for those that aren't this is a simple and free fix.

I think it was you that told me before the 4 string single pickup Stingray is the only one with the raised A and D pole pieces, the others have them all the same height and they never had the problem......I might be mistaken. I've also seen a post on the EB forum saying that this is a classic design feature aimed at Country and Western "click" players, whatever that is. Very few other manufacturers raise the middle pole pieces, look at a Jazz bass pickup and they're all level despite have a huge 7" radius on the fingerboard.....no string balance problems.

My bridge is setup to follow the curve of the fingerboard, but the string balance is now perfect with the mod. Here's a pic:


[IMG]http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/xx159/richardmatthews_photos/forum%20stuff/Stingray.jpg[/IMG]

Edited August 14, 2012 by Fat Rich

[drTStingray]

Yeah the HH and HS Stingray pick ups have level pole pieces, as do all the SR5s (and Bongos etc). Only the H version of the Ray has the pick up poles like this (and it is based on the original 1976 design).

There's clearly a lot of taste and personal choice involved in bass sounds, and what is/isn't a good string to string balance - for me the upper strings on a Jazz and Precision can sound rather overpowering in some situations (especially with the tone control on full).

G and L overcome the problem on some of their basses by making all of poles adjustable - infinite discussion possibilities there as to what is the best balance I guess!

This is an interesting mod, and obviously reversible if you don't get on with it - I'm now curious to try it myself and see what happens!! BTW lovely trans red Ray you have there

If anyone's interested, you can order SR4H pick up covers from S and T - in white or black, if you fancy a change from what you have! Musicman started offering these when they launched the Classic series - in case anyone didn't like the colour the bass came with (eg mine is white (as delivered) rather than black as is usual on most Stingrays) - the white pu covers were apparently available as an option up to about 1977 on Musicman basses and are thus seen on Pre EBs occassionally.

Edited August 14, 2012 by drTStingray

[Fat Rich]

I guess the mod is reversible, getting the pole pieces level is easy if the bobbins are on a flat surface like the bottom of the pickup rout in the body, they'll push in to the same level as the G and E.

I guess to reverse it you'd need to put some kind of spacer under the E and G and then push the A and D pole pieces from the back. You'd need to know the difference in height between the pole pieces to find suitable spacers, something I didn't bother to make a note of!

[stingrayPete1977]

It's really nice that Fat Rich!

My pre EB has slightly raised A and D poles,probably about right for the fretboard radius, but I have seen some with really raised ones on EBMM basses in all sorts of odd combinations too. I cant remember what my teal 2002 was like now, never had any trouble though.

[drTStingray]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1344962411' post='1771704']
It's really nice that Fat Rich!

........I have seen some with really raised ones on EBMM basses in all sorts of odd combinations too.[/quote]

Not on EBMM ones in factory spec, Pete - you may have seen multi pick up ones (as I have) which are single pu ones converted with two after market pick ups in raised pole form. The only other two pu MM basses with raised poles are Sabres with exposed poles.