Popped in to check some Laklands today....

[gary mac]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1345070682' post='1773330']
The point is that if they spent more time on such things as the pickup alignment at the factory maybe they would have to charge even more.
[/quote]



Or they could just take pride in the production of their instruments and get it right.

FFS it's not that difficult,

[Dingus]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1345071987' post='1773352']
meh, squier can get it right a lot of the time on a budget instrument. It is as you say a question of time spent in the factory. And partly I guess how much Lakland pays Cort to spend time on their basses, factored in with the "value added" of the Lakland brand and the amount of profit lakland want to make on each bass.

Basses are funny things, you get to a point where a lot of the far eastern made basses are made by the same couple of manufacturers and badged with whatever- one comes out with one logo on it and is £1000, a similar, cheaper hardware for £300- or just different priorities.
Like blindfold test a Skyline Lakland, or Tanglewood Overwater, or A Cort GB, or even the Cort Sandberg line series.... is there as much difference essentially as the recommended retail price would suggest?
[/quote]

Well here you have got a very good point. I can't compare the models/ brands you mention because of all the ones you mention I only have experience of the Lakland Skyline , but what I do know is that , generally speaking, inexpensive basses are getting better and better in terms of both sound and playability, and are getting closer to the performance you would get from professional -level instruments 20 or 30 years ago. Would a Skyline justify its higher price compared to the others ( I am assuming they are cheaper)? I think the fundamental difference might be that the hardware on the Lakland is essentially the same as on the USA models, and (if you get a good example ), the Plekked fretjob and overall playability make it play and sound very close to it's USA counterparts. So then you are getting something that is comparable to a high-end bass for around £1000 , depending on which model, ect . Whether it gets close enough is something for the individual to decide. I suppose most people have never tried a USA Lakland to compare it to, but they can at least evaluate the bass in their hands .
Musicman 20 made the point earlier that the Skyines aren't a budget brand because the cost a grand, but I would maintain that they are budget basses because they are essentially a more affordable version of a more expensive bass . An American Standard Fender is the definitive version of itself, by comparison. It is not a cheaper version of anything. £1000 is a lot of money, but that's not the same thing.
You are quite right; basses are funny things. , and that is true at every price point , right up to high -end handmade instruments. When you strip away the artifice, you can be left wondering what you have paid for when you look at the reality of what you have actually ended up with . At least with less expensive instruments they are more freely available in shops and so you can probably try them out and make your mind up based on that , just like Musicman 20 has done in this case . The further up the scale you go, the more likelihood there is you are taking a leap of faith in some way or another.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Dingus

[jezzaboy]

I have always wondered why the skyline Laklands were so expensive. The G&L Tributes and the Sterling Ray 34`s are made in Indonesia and the build quality on them is superb. They retail around 575-650 mark and while I haven`t checked out any Lak`s recently, I would not consider buying one as I just don`t see how they can justify the price of these models.

[woodyratm]

This makes me sad that the Laklands aren't up to scratch now
I love my (Skyline) DJ4 - best neck i've ever played, it's quite light and sounds brilliant.

Shame that the QC has gone all fender and now seems to be hit or miss.

EDIT:- Mines also didn't cost £1k

Edited August 16, 2012 by woodyratm

[gear4djs]

I can assure you that their QC is most likely not hit and miss - I can't deny however that all companies are prone to mistakes, no matter who they are.

It's also the responsibility of the shop to assure that the instruments are of good quality, and get in touch with Lakland if they aren't. Otherwise impressions such as this can start spreading I.E giving the impression that *all* QC is off, and not just the select few.

As far as I'm aware, Lakland hasn't changed anything along their line and has literally just changed hands - that is all.

Either way, my Lakland 44-01 has superb build quality. It beat everything up to £800 in this regard hands down. I have definitely played ropey examples of Laklands, but again potentially some of the blame can be laid with the retailer.

[b]Mike @ Gear4DJs[/b]

Edited August 16, 2012 by gear4djs

[Muzz]

QC is not on a per bass basis, it's about maintaining standards of production and finish. If ropey basses with the fundamental issues described earlier are on sale with the Lakland name on, then Lakland have QC issues. The QC is what is supposed to stop ropey basses leaving the factory, that's what the "control" bit in Quality Control is for. Not that other manufacturers don't have/haven't had similar issues (Fender have been called out on this before, and our very own Musicman20 has had fun and games with Stingrays), but it's surprising (and therefore remarkable) that a bass at £1000 does in the terms described.

I should add that the 2006 DJ Skyline I had was a terrific instrument, a class above any of the Fender Jazzes I've had.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Muzz

[gear4djs]

[quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1345121561' post='1773807']
QC is not on a per bass basis, it's about maintaining standards of production and finish. If ropey basses with the fundamental issues described earlier are on sale with the Lakland name on, then Lakland have QC issues. The QC is what is supposed to stop ropey basses leaving the factory, that's what the "control" bit in Quality Control is for. Not that other manufacturers don't have/haven't had similar issues (Fender have been called out on this before, and our very own Musicman20 has had fun and games with Stingrays), but it's surprising (and therefore remarkable) that a bass at £1000 does in the terms described.

I should add that the 2006 DJ Skyline I had was a terrific instrument, a class above any of the Fender Jazzes I've had.
[/quote]

I understand all of this - it's just that it sounds like all the way along the line those basses have been passed onto the shop floor. Someone should have stopped them at some point

[Dingus]

With any bass you try in any shop, a lot can have happened to it in between leaving the factory and you picking it up to play it in the showroom.

[jaydentaku]

I have tried the Laklands in guitar guitar and I didn't find it a particularly emotive experience. I certainly wouldn't expect to pay what they are asking for them, same for a Stingray I would much prefer a US Fender for that price.

[machinehead]

I think I could safely say that very few musicians understand the basic principles of quality control and machine capability.

It's a matter of statistical control and maintaining defects at a level which the manufacturer considers acceptable - and it costs money.

So a product that is [u][i]consistantly[/i][/u] nearly perfect will be more expensive to produce than one that has a certain number of defects. This applies to machined parts. Manual operations are handled differently. Google will yield lots of information on this very dry subject.



All this doesn't matter though if you happen to buy one of the defective ones.

Frank.

[Prunesquallor]

I thought it would be interesting to hear Lakland's take on this, as I've had my eye on one for some time, so I emailed them about the thread. Here is the reply from John Pirruccello, their President, in full:


Hi Neil,

Thank you for writing in and pointing out the thread. I find it vitally important to hear comments including complaints about our instruments so we can make changes and correct them. It's difficult to find the time to monitor boards like basschat so I do appreciate you alerting us.

First, our policy is that if anyone purchases a Lakland and has issues with anything, please contact us immediately and we will work with you towards a resolution that you are happy with. We are still a small operation, same size as always, (I've been here since 1997) same crew, same machinery, so nothing has changed that should make anyone feel our basses are somehow different now. We actually spend more time on each Skyline neck than ever before between the PLEK and hand fret end finishing post PLEK. Pickup winding and loading is all done here in Chicago too.

But that is not to say that we are complacent, which is all the more reason why I am happy to have these issues pointed out to me like the ones on this thread. I've heard from folks on the US board talkbass, and the interaction has helped us to correct things that slipped by and keep us on our toes. We care very much about our reputation, we've worked very hard to make our customers happy all these years.

Please pass this note to anyone who may be interested or you may post it.

Very sincerely,

John Pirruccello
President, Lakland Basses


I thought it was decent of him to give a personal reply.

[stingrayPete1977]

Can't argue with that

[Muzz]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1345124739' post='1773878']
With any bass you try in any shop, a lot can have happened to it in between leaving the factory and you picking it up to play it in the showroom.
[/quote]

If you read the first post, it was chiefly paintwork issues on more than one bass. Can't think how that might have happened in transit...

[LukeFRC]

no, a good response.

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1345124739' post='1773878']
With any bass you try in any shop, a lot can have happened to it in between leaving the factory and you picking it up to play it in the showroom.
[/quote] very true, I went into one major guitar shop and tried about 20 types of jazz bass. A lot of necks with high relief... and one or two which were at banana stage that I actually went and told the shop guys. Apparently the temp in the shop varies so much they go all wobbly. (why they don't just keep the shop warm at night too I don't know) Give it it's due the Lakland was as straight as a die.

[Dingus]

[quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1345136833' post='1774175']
If you read the first post, it was chiefly paintwork issues on more than one bass. Can't think how that might have happened in transit...
[/quote]

Maybe so , but I am making a general point about guitars in shops. I have seen plenty of instruments in retail outlets over the years that were supposed to be brand new but had recieved varying degrees of wear and/or abuse through careless handling in some way or another.

[Muzz]

Yep, I agree, though damage is a little easier to spot. Good point about setups, too - I've seen some shockers. Wobbly necks due to shop temperatures? Where was this, the Sahara branch of Music Ground?

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1345138863' post='1774215']
Yep, I agree, though damage is a little easier to spot. Good point about setups, too - I've seen some shockers. Wobbly necks due to shop temperatures? Where was this, the Sahara branch of Music Ground?
[/quote]

rather not say, apart from the daft temperatures it's a great wee shop so I don't want to do them down.

[Dingus]

You have to have some sympathy with the retailers in respect of this problem. If they let people try out the guitars they run the risk of their stock getting worn or damaged, and if they refuse people the chance to try them they are accused of being miserable and mean spirited. I know a lot of the specialist retailers in America limit the time people can try the basses for. It's become a common and accepted practise.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1345068632' post='1773283']
I know where you are coming from, but they aren't a budget bass. They are the same price as a Fender American Standard, but you don't get any type of hardcase, or any case at all!

Sorry. but the pickup alignment/paintwork/bridge alignment really does bug me when a £300 Squier CV is almost perfect.
[/quote]

Have to go with this...

If the argument was that these flaws..my words..couldn't be ironed out on any budget bass, then fair enough...I'd pay the extra for the real deal but I don't think it is a QC issue as such, it is a Lakland issue..

There is a certain level of finish/QC I'd expect on a bass upwards of £1000.....

Edited August 16, 2012 by JTUK

[Musicman20]

Unfortunately to me it didn't look like shipping or player damage. It looked more like a paint flaw, and there was issues on 3-4 I looked at.

The bridge misalignment has been mentioned for a few years, as has the pups, yet even the brand new re-issued DJ5's have them, and the 55-60. Not all of them obviously, but the stock I looked and tried was not a good advert for Lakland.

[CHRISDABASS]

When i last looked at the lakland line of jazz style basses all of them had this pickup alignment issue!! Surely it is just as easy to get it consistantly right as it is to get it consistantly wrong?? For £1000+ having everything lined up correctly should be a standard thing!