Adding "Middle" creates distortion, it's a well known fact?????????

[FlatEric]

"Adding middle creates distortion and causes the notes to
break up, it's a well known fact"
A quote taken from a guitarist, last night.

"Back the middle of and you'll always get a cleaner sound"
was the other.

There followed another 20 minutes of light hearted banter,
with me pointing out that [i]I [/i]had not heard that one.

It [i]may[/i] enhance the distortion on a guitar amp but on
a bass amp??

Can anyone with expertise enlighten me?

Cheers.

[51m0n]

Nonsense.

Adding level anywhere in the frequency range, such that you overload the maximum clean input level of whatever preamp you are talking about will cause distortion.

So what he means is adding more volume may cause breakup.

Cutting any area will not ever add more distortion. Since you are removing level.

However it may not specifically lessen distortion, if the distortion is produced from a large amount of level in another area of the frequency spectrum.

So if you have a signal that is 60dB higher at 200Hz and 12Khz than it is at 1Khz, but it is still under the headroom of the input gain of the pre, then you will have a clean but ridiculously scooped sound.

If you then bring the gain up on that sound you will clip at the top and bottom of the frequency range, but quite probably not really in the middle.

If you cut the bass and treble you will eventually clean that signal up. Note you didnt cut the mids!

Edited August 19, 2012 by 51m0n

[Commando Jack]

Kind of makes a mockery of treble booster pedals.

He probably has this reasoning because tube screamer type pedals have a notable mid hump in them.

[Dingus]

I think part of the problem is that people have different ideas of what they mean when they say distortion. A scientists definition of distortion can be irrelevant to a musicians practical experience of distotion. To all intents and purposes, your guitarist is quite right; midrange frequencies are apt to push amps and speakers towards what players would call a distorted tone . At what point if any the sound actually starts going fuzzy ( for want of a better term) depends on a number of factors not least of all the efficiency of the equipment. Modern bass amps and cabs are by and large far more efficient than their vintage predecessors and can be driven much harder before the sound breaks up, but listen to old recordings of Jack Bruce with Cream and he is using a midrangey sound to make his Marshall amps and cabs distort. Geddy Lee has adopted a similar approach over the years. He still does kind of the same thing, but the sound of his his hi-tech Hartkes isn't going to break up in quite the same way. Geddy Lee has adopted a similar approach over the years. And a lot of guitar equipment features mid- boost controls to enhance distortion.

[51m0n]

No, that is all very well, but it doesnt change the facts, take any amp, or preamp, and push too much level in at a certain frequency range and it will overload the signal in that area of the frequency range.

Jack Bruce has a notable mid hump in his eq (look at the vid of the Royal Albert Hall Cream concert and his hartke amps all have a marked frown shape eq on the graphic). If he had a noticeable bass bump instead he'd get just as much distortion, it just wouldnt be in the midrange.

It doesnt matter if its old or new, the same thing applies.

Midrange boost is no more likely to cause overdriving than a bass boost. The fact that a load of old vintage geezers used midrangey sounds pushed into overdrive is by the by. They used midrangey sounds for a load of reasons, getting enough volume without the power or speakers capable of generating very deep bass, or with tweeters for top end being a huge part of that.

Even so mid range doesnt have a natural propensity to create distortion compared to bass.

Edited August 17, 2012 by 51m0n

[Dingus]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1345219044' post='1775186']
No, that is all very well, but it doesnt change the facts, take any amp, or preamp, and push too much level in at a certain frequency range and it will overload the signal in that area of the frequency range.

Jack Bruce has a notable mid hump in his eq (look at the vid of the Royal Albert Hall Cream concert and his hartke amps all have a marked frown shape eq on the graphic). If he had a noticeable bass bump instead he'd get just as much distortion, it just wouldnt be in the midrange.

It doesnt matter if its old or new, the same thing applies.

Midrange boost is no more likely to cause overdriving than a bass boost. The fact that a load of old vintage geezers used midrangey sounds pushed into overdrive is by the by. They used midrangey sounds for a load of reasons, getting enough volume without the power or speakers capable of generating very deep bass, or with tweeters for top end being a huge part of that.

Even so mid range doesnt have a natural propensity to create distortion compared to bass.
[/quote]

i understand where you are coming from , but the simple fact is that, regardless of the physics involved, in practise if you take an old Marshall, Ampeg B15 ect. and turn up the mids the sound will soon start to distort , particulaly at higher volumes, Much more apparently than if you turn up the bass or treble. You are right that players consciously exploited a midrangey sound for various , and distortion was an unavoidable and not neccesarrily unwanted consequence. As I pointed out in my post and as you quite rightly refer to, Jack Bruce still alludes to that tone but as I clearly state , modern amps and cabs deal with it in a different way If you are playing loud , all my personal experience is that pronounced midrange will work your speakers the hardest , and particulaly with a bass guitar, it is that distortion in the midrange which is most apparent and can have a tendancy to start sounding ugly. Similaly with guitar, turn up the mids on a Marshall or Mesa Boogie and very soon it's crunch- city. Turn up the bass and treble and it doesn't start audibly distorting in the same way, in fact the sound seems to get cleaner if you turn both up at once.

[51m0n]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1345221542' post='1775234']
i understand where you are coming from , but the simple fact is that, regardless of the physics involved, in practise if you take an old Marshall, Ampeg B15 ect. and turn up the mids the sound will soon start to distort , particulaly at higher volumes, Much more apparently than if you turn up the bass or treble. You are right that players consciously exploited a midrangey sound for various , and distortion was an unavoidable and not neccesarrily unwanted consequence. As I pointed out in my post and as you quite rightly refer to, Jack Bruce still alludes to that tone but as I clearly state , modern amps and cabs deal with it in a different way If you are playing loud , all my personal experience is that pronounced midrange will work your speakers the hardest , and particulaly with a bass guitar, it is that distortion in the midrange which is most apparent and can have a tendancy to start sounding ugly. Similaly with guitar, turn up the mids on a Marshall or Mesa Boogie and very soon it's crunch- city. Turn up the bass and treble and it doesn't start audibly distorting in the same way,[b] in fact the sound seems to get cleaner if you turn both up at once[/b].
[/quote]

Nope, going to have to flat out disagree with that IME.

Drive too much bass into a system and it'll distort as quick as you like. Treble requires (sometimes) more effort.

Yes it sounds different, its a different area of the frequency spectrum thats distorting, but its still distorting!

Edited August 17, 2012 by 51m0n

[Dingus]

Perhaps I should make it clear that when I say guitar , I am referring to the six string variety, as opposed to a bass. By way of example, quite a popular tone for some guitarists nowadys is that scooped -out clean sound so apt for moody arpegios that to my knowledge was popularised by Metallica on the Black album , and you get that sound in large part by boosting the bass and treble. Back in the world of bass , Marcus Miller gets his famous signature scooped - out bright and tight tone by boosting the highs and lows and in the process creating the illusion of a recessed midrange. I am sure you are quite correct when you say that other frequencies introduce just as much distortion into the system, but in practise it will usually be the an over- emphasis in the mids which will most quickly produce the most noticable and clearly audible break up in the sound.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Dingus

[Lozz196]

Well I`ve noticed on various basses/amps that if I get the sound I want, adding mids makes it seem like adding more distortion, but in reality, it`s just making the distortion that is already happening easier to hear, because of the frequencies. Just like a completely clean sound - add mids, it`s suddenly a lot easier to hear.

[51m0n]

Marcus Millers sound is not simply scooped. An awful lot of people try and get his sound by eqing like mad and cant be heard at all in a mix. He's also very very adept at setting up the compression he uses to sculpt the bass sound, particularly the transient and the relative level of the rest of the note that follows that transient.

His sound is clean because the peak level is beneath the maximum headroom of the amp. It is absolutely nothing to do with the eq on it at all. Its about appropriate gainstaging of his equipment for how he plays. If he made it louder it would distort when he exceeded the headroom of the amp. There is absolutely nothing else to it.

You should read up a bit on [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher%E2%80%93Munson_curves"]Fletcher-Munson curves[/url] which describe the way the human ear is 'tuned' to certain frequency ranges at certain volumes through the evolutionary paths that have occured. We excel at hearing midrange information (a big part of why sucking the mids out of your bass tone is a killer for hearing the instrument in the mix), and suck at hearing deep bass and extreme high end. However that doesnt chnage the fact that the circuit is overloaded, and if you know what and how to listen for it you can pick it out.

Midrange doesnt create distortion though. That is not the case. We hear better in the mid range (1Khz to 5KHz being the optimum area), but that is all.

Edited August 17, 2012 by 51m0n

[Beer of the Bass]

I wonder if this idea might have come about due to the design quirks of guitar amps? On amps which use a Fender or Marshall type tone stack, the midrange control affects the attenuation across all frequencies, not just the midrange, so turning the mid knob up will indeed give you a few dB more gain overall. This might be why the idea that "more mids = more distortion" is specifically a guitarist thing.

[Dingus]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1345233682' post='1775463']
Marcus Millers sound is not simply scooped. An awful lot of people try and get his sound by eqing like mad and cant be heard at all in a mix. He's also very very adept at setting up the compression he uses to sculpt the bass sound, particularly the transient and the relative level of the rest of the note that follows that transient.

His sound is clean because the peak level is beneath the maximum headroom of the amp. It is absolutely nothing to do with the eq on it at all. Its about appropriate gainstaging of his equipment for how he plays. If he made it louder it would distort when he exceeded the headroom of the amp. There is absolutely nothing else to it.

You should read up a bit on [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher%E2%80%93Munson_curves"]Fletcher-Munson curves[/url] which describe the way the human ear is 'tuned' to certain frequency ranges at certain volumes through the evolutionary paths that have occured. We excel at hearing midrange information (a big part of why sucking the mids out of your bass tone is a killer for hearing the instrument in the mix), and suck at hearing deep bass and extreme high end. However that doesnt chnage the fact that the circuit is overloaded, and if you know what and how to listen for it you can pick it out.

Midrange doesnt create distortion though. That is not the case. We hear better in the mid range (1Khz to 5KHz being the optimum area), but that is all.
[/quote]

If you re-read my post, you will see that I clearly state the Marcus boosts the bass and treble to create the apparent illusion of a mid-scooped sound. He doesn't actually remove his mids, and you are also quite right that compression is an integral part of his sound ( although it has to be said that the biggest part of his sound is him). As you peceptively point out, many people fail to grasp this in trying to imitate him. As I stated in my first post , part of the problem is that people have different ideas of what distortion is. I am talking more about that fuzzy clipping sound your cabs make when it sounds like they are being seriously damaged and may explode if not given some kind of respite. I only have a grade 3 C.S.E in physics ( lack of revision) , but i think it It may be called square wave distortion.

[FlatEric]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1345207088' post='1774973']
Nonsense.

Adding level anywhere in the frequency range, such that you overload the maximum clean input level of whatever preamp you are talking about will cause distortion.

So what he means is adding more volume may cause breakup.

Cutting any area will not ever add more distortion. Since you are removing level.

However it may not specifically lessen distortion, if the distortion is produced from a large amount of level in another area of the frequency spectrum.

So if you have a signal that is 60dB higher at 200Hz and 12Khz than it is at 1Khx, but it is still under the headroom of the input gain of the pre, then you will have a clean but ridiculously scooped sound.

If you then bring the gain up on that sound you will clip at the top and bottom of the frequency range, but quite probably not really in the middle.

If you cut the bass and treble you will eventually clean that signal up. Note you didnt cut the mids!
[/quote]
[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1345236212' post='1775507']
I wonder if this idea might have come about due to the design quirks of guitar amps? On amps which use a Fender or Marshall type tone stack, the midrange control affects the attenuation across all frequencies, not just the midrange, so turning the mid knob up will indeed give you a few dB more gain overall. This might be why the idea that "more mids = more distortion" is specifically a guitarist thing.
[/quote]

Thanks for clearing that up.

"If the gain is set, just before clipping and then you add the middle, or anything else, it will tip it over the edge
but just adding middle, will not create distortion". is what I said.

Seem like that is what has been said here.

I shall put my point across again.

Cheers.

[51m0n]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1345236350' post='1775510']
If you re-read my post, you will see that I clearly state the Marcus boosts the bass and treble to create the apparent illusion of a mid-scooped sound. He doesn't actually remove his mids, and you are also quite right that compression is an integral part of his sound ( although it has to be said that the biggest part of his sound is him). As you peceptively point out, many people fail to grasp this in trying to imitate him. As I stated in my first post , part of the problem is that people have different ideas of what distortion is. I am talking more about that fuzzy clipping sound your cabs make when it sounds like they are being seriously damaged and may explode if not given some kind of respite. I only have a grade 3 C.S.E in physics ( lack of revision) , but i think it It may be called square wave distortion.
[/quote]

Adding treble and bass is the same as removing mids. The ratio of bass frequencies and treble frequencies to middle frequencies is changed in effectively the same way.

However, if you are on the limit of clean headroom and you add bass and treble, they will cause you to overload the preamp. If, instead, you cut the middle, you will create the same eq curve (or there abouts, depending on whether the eq section has equal Q for boosts as cuts, and the precise frequency center of all the controls blah blah blah), getting the timbre you want without distortion.

For what its worth an old sound engineering adage has it that you should cut tight and hard, boost wide and gentle, if you are aiming to keep the general timbre of the source sound. Largely because the human ear is rubbish at hearing tight Q cuts even of over 10dB, but very good at hearing (and recognising this as an unnatural timbre) tight Q boosts as unnatural. But also because cutting reduces the chance of overloading the circuit, whilst also reducing noise in the frequency band you are cutting, whereas boosting can both add distortion (or oveloading) and add noise (because you are boosting a particular frequncy area).

No, distortion is distortion is distortion, it is (whether intentional or not) in the purest sense (oh the irony) any change caused to the signal by any part of the signal chain. However in the context mentioned here it is very definitely the sound caused by overloading the preamp (and possibly the power amp, and in a tube poweramp even the output transformers) circuits to cause clipping of the output. Whereby the output waveform is severely impacted (changed), the peaks are cut short (because the circuit runs out of headroom), and the circuit generates extra harmonics as a by product (as well as effectively acting as a compressor). This state is [b][i]not [/i][/b]frequency dependant, it is [b][i]level [/i][/b]dependant. Which is why middle doesn't create distortion, whilst bass and treble remove it. That is nonsense.

[51m0n]

[quote name='FlatEric' timestamp='1345362505' post='1776550']
Thanks for clearing that up.

"If the gain is set, just before clipping and then you add the middle, or anything else, it will tip it over the edge
but just adding middle, will not create distortion". is what I said.

Seem like that is what has been said here.

I shall put my point across again.

Cheers.
[/quote]

My pleasure

[dave_bass5]

Tell the guitarist that adding bass creates distortion, whack him over the head with your bass until lumps appear and point out how distorted his head now looks.

Edited August 20, 2012 by dave_bass5

[PlungerModerno]

[quote name='dave_bass5' timestamp='1345466317' post='1777753']
Tell the guitarist that adding bass creates distortion, whack him over the head with your bass until limps appear and point out how distorted his head now looks.


[/quote]

Seems legit.

[Gust0o]

[quote name='dave_bass5' timestamp='1345466317' post='1777753']
Tell the guitarist that adding bass creates distortion, whack him over the head with your bass until lumps appear and point out how distorted his head now looks.


[/quote]

Deal.

[TimR]

This is another one of those 'I don't understand physics but when I turn up the mids I hear more distortion, therefore turning up the mid causes distortion'. It's just like 'If I stand further from my bass amp I can hear it better, therefore sound waves from bass take longer to develop.'

Distortion is mainly second order harmonics added to your original signal. If you turn up the bass, the fundamental will get louder but the volume of the distortion will not increase. If you cut the mid then the distortion appears to decrease because you hear more fundamental.

So effectively, yes, turning up the mid will increase the distortion, but only if the distortion is occurring before the EQ stage, eg in the preamp gain section or via a pedal etc.

[Dingus]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1345489484' post='1778139']
This is another one of those 'I don't understand physics but when I turn up the mids I hear more distortion, therefore turning up the mid causes distortion'. It's just like 'If I stand further from my bass amp I can hear it better, therefore sound waves from bass take longer to develop.'

Distortion is mainly second order harmonics added to your original signal. If you turn up the bass, the fundamental will get louder but the volume of the distortion will not increase. If you cut the mid then the distortion appears to decrease because you hear more fundamental.

So effectively, yes, turning up the mid will increase the distortion, but only if the distortion is occurring before the EQ stage, eg in the preamp gain section or via a pedal etc.
[/quote]

+1 on what this man says. ( Although he too also obviously knows more about physics than me. I blame it on the faliure of the comprehensive school system, allied to the fact that I am of relatively low intelligence.)
We are all almost talking at crossed-purposes in so much as their is a gulf between the theoretical phenomenon of measurable distortion and the practicalities of plugging a guitar or a bass into an amp, turning it up and hearing a distorted tone when you push up the mids in certain instances . I used to have a bass with specially wound pickups with an enhanced low-midrange to give a it sound that would allegedly cut through a wall of loud guitars ect. It seemed like a good idea on paper, but it would make just about any valve-based preamp , however hi-tech, sound like a fuzzbox if you weren't careful, making it a bit of an ongoing challenge to manage the levels and eq. Recording with it in a proper studio I remember being particulaly fraught.

Edited August 21, 2012 by Dingus