Black Coffee Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Does the bass sound of some slap and modern metal hide the fact that some people can't play a bass at all ? Think of the Geddy Lees, Phil Lynotts, Steve Harris sounding metal bassists in 70s and 80s who played clear crisp riffs that inspired. Then hear the modern drop D grunge and slap. Have some adopted aggression and a percussive sound to mask the fact they can't play at all ? Or am I just cynical.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machines Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Its just progress. Crazy kids eh ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzyvee Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 As long as they produce a sound someone wants to hear does proficiency matter as long as the result is music? Jazzyvee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingson Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 (edited) I'd be more worried about getting totally lost in the mix if I employed a 'scooped' sound all the time and I think it's a common beginner's mistake in approach to live EQ. It doesn't really matter how you choose to EQ yourself though if the sum of the parts is all there. Edited August 18, 2012 by risingson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Coffee Posted August 18, 2012 Author Share Posted August 18, 2012 I'm all for progress and music. Progress is good and comes with practice and should be everybody's goal. Look how far Flea took it, but there's only a few who slap like him and sound as good. I think he actually said that he abandoned the aggressive slap style because everybody jumped on after him. Maybe I am just cynical. To explain where this came from. I was led to write this after listening to some Cliff Burton, Geddy Lee, and Steve Harris from the 80s recently and it's sweet to hear compared to the stuff on the television music channels that my son watches. I am not wanting to be criticising modern sounds because one mans symphony is another mans earache and thats your right as a musician, just that the bass is sometimes drowned too regularly in a wall of distorted drop D guitar chunk, bump and grind. It's each to their own I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismuzz Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 A sound with lots of attack will actually make any slightly off notes stick out more! Unless you scoop out mods of the mids that is ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 It doesn't help that a lot of modern metal guitarists use active pickups and bass heavy, high gain tone which when coupled with a double kick playing, heavy handed drummer makes it hard for the bass player to cut through. Consider the difference between Maiden / early Metallica guitar tone to a modern band like Lamb Of God - it's a lot thicker a heavier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 One band who's Bass stood out in the '80s was overkill. Dd verni..very underrated IMHO . Used to like overkill , full on thrash , vocals were erratic tho'. A bit marmite ,) Must say tho' in the mid '80s onwards , the bass got more defined and dear I say trebly,) Production changed I think in a lot of ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 As per the title question..... No, slap is very easy to play if you aren't that good an allround player but then there are guys who take it to another level. so there is good slap and bad slap... and then there is a time and a place for it. There must be a zillion types of ways to play certain lines but slap dates pretty fast with so many doing it. Guys like LJ, MK and Flea all stood up a good few years ago...and probably only Mark King could make any decent sense in todays world against guys like Caron. Funnily enough, the guy who was supposed to have started it all..has a pretty timeless take on it, IMO and is still as funky as f***...so it just goes to show..you can trill all you like but some guys have more than most... Check out LJ.. he is pretty unique in his style..and he probably hasn't changed it very much at all... but he stil kills it... everyone else if so much more huff and puff and goes nowhere Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Don't get me started trying to compare Lynott, Geddy Lee and Harris against truely great players, but you might win the popularity contest.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 (edited) [quote name='RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE' timestamp='1345333696' post='1776471'] One band who's Bass stood out in the '80s was overkill. Dd verni..very underrated IMHO . [/quote] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4fVj5ipyUc[/media] Actually, I blame the clangy sound on SVT cabs, everyone thinks the 8x10 is the be all and end all and they don't go any lower than guitar cabs, so once guitars are detuned and bottomy, you have no space to move into except upward. Edited August 19, 2012 by Mr. Foxen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 [size=5][sub]But....they are great stage cabs..which is why they are used so often in that context.[/sub][/size] [size=5][sub]For stages, you really don't want bassy cabs that bleed everywhere..it will get there anyway... but you don't want to help it any more than you can. [/sub][/size] [size=5][sub]Gtrs detuning into bass territory is a problem best solved by not allowing them to get down there.[/sub][/size] [size=5][sub]It can be the same with piano players and their LH.. the only difference with keys is that they may realise they have stepped on your toes when you stop playing[/sub][/size] [size=5][sub]and given them a 'look', but with some gtrs..??? would they care...? you are lucky to be on their stage with them :lol; [/sub][/size] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Coffee Posted August 19, 2012 Author Share Posted August 19, 2012 I apologise if I was making it sound as if I was implying Lee, Lynott and Harris were the GREAT players. It just happened to be who I had recently listened to. Rush recent live album, Maiden Killers and Metallica Kill em all. I don't think we can say who ever was the greatest as styles are far too versatile and one who is good at chord/gallop playing doesn't do thumb slap/pop at all but is up there with the best in his music type. When you look at Victor Wooton, Jaco, Mark King, ...... where do you stop , who is the greatest? List is long dude. John Myung apparently has it all in techniques from what I read about him, but he doesn't exclusively slap does he ? I dont know much dream theatre stuff. The guitar being where the bass is, is a good explanation for not hearing I suppose. But guitar ego is overriding all sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 [quote name='bassman344' timestamp='1345371289' post='1776662'] But guitar ego is overriding all sense. [/quote] as it ever was Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 I don`t know about the modern tones covering up whether the bassist can play or not, but to me, it just prevents me from being able to hear the actual bassline. Full marks to those guys for being happy to be in a band where their instrument is the only one that cannot be heard, due to the sound they/somone else chooses. Not for me though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerds Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 essential in any bass players kit box... 1 - wire cutters (to cut the bottom string of any guitar player who dares to go below 'E' ) 2 - hacksaw (to saw through the left wrist of the majority (i did say - majority) of keyboard players - especially those who can't hear that their left hand little finger is responsible for that 'booming' bass note clashing with that riff you've just.......) rant over........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machines Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 [quote name='bassman344' timestamp='1345371289' post='1776662'] John Myung apparently has it all in techniques from what I read about him, but he doesn't exclusively slap does he ? I dont know much dream theatre stuff. The guitar being where the bass is, is a good explanation for not hearing I suppose. But guitar ego is overriding all sense. [/quote] Myung is awesome, very modest and happy to be standing at the back out of the spotlight. He can easily shred along with Petrucci and match his solo lines. Check this out, 12 mins but worth watching through: [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCz7RzGDsTw[/media] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rOB Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Could the sounds you think of as grungey and being lost in the mix also be interpreted as contributing to a heavier overall sound? Not for me either in a band either but I do like the odd bit of downtuned guitars and bass blending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1345338527' post='1776494'] [size=5][sub]But....they are great stage cabs..which is why they are used so often in that context.[/sub][/size] [size=5][sub]For stages, you really don't want bassy cabs that bleed everywhere..it will get there anyway... but you don't want to help it any more than you can. [/sub][/size] [size=5][sub]Gtrs detuning into bass territory is a problem best solved by not allowing them to get down there.[/sub][/size] [size=5][sub]It can be the same with piano players and their LH.. the only difference with keys is that they may realise they have stepped on your toes when you stop playing[/sub][/size] [size=5][sub]and given them a 'look', but with some gtrs..??? would they care...? you are lucky to be on their stage with them :lol; [/sub][/size] [/quote] Great stage cabs if you are getting the tone from the PA, which kinds of makes them crap monitors. The problem is that most of the time people aren't playing on stage with a PA when they are sorting their tone, so they have a cab that is fundamentally not suited to what they are doing, and carry that tone onto the stage, loads of top to get some space. Having the guitarist play a different genre of music doesn't really take you anywhere, although using gear not suited to the genre you are playing sort of suggests that is the way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 You wouldn't use one without the valve amp..just no point, but then you wouldn't use one on a litle stage either...so you are always getting the tone from the P.A.... but the engr is not going to be oblivious on this type of gig to what the bass player has spend hours and hours and a fortune getting to. Quite prepared to accept that the Ampeg fridge is more than a tad of iconic status but I disagree that it is a poor monitor. If the SVT rig does your sound..and all you have to do is plug in, then you are sorted. You may have more in the side fills should you decide your SVT rig is lacking on any given stage/hall. Not for nothing is it a large gig reference. If you aren't talking big stages, then all bets are off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1345336888' post='1776488'] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4fVj5ipyUc[/media] Actually, I blame the clangy sound on SVT cabs, everyone thinks the 8x10 is the be all and end all and they don't go any lower than guitar cabs, so once guitars are detuned and bottomy, you have no space to move into except upward. [/quote] thanks for that. nicetrack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1345389940' post='1776959'] You wouldn't use one without the valve amp..just no point, but then you wouldn't use one on a litle stage either...so you are always getting the tone from the P.A.... but the engr is not going to be oblivious on this type of gig to what the bass player has spend hours and hours and a fortune getting to. Quite prepared to accept that the Ampeg fridge is more than a tad of iconic status but I disagree that it is a poor monitor. If the SVT rig does your sound..and all you have to do is plug in, then you are sorted. You may have more in the side fills should you decide your SVT rig is lacking on any given stage/hall. [/quote] The point of this thread is people who's sound is clangy to cover inadequacies. I'm suggesting the inadequacy is the cabinets of choice, or copying the tone thereof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neepheid Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1345336472' post='1776486'] As per the title question..... No, slap is very easy to play if you aren't that good an allround player [/quote] I haven't the first clue how to slap, and I haven't got much more in the way of motivation to learn, so what does that statement say about me? Should I give up now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 [quote name='neepheid' timestamp='1345453212' post='1777556'] I haven't the first clue how to slap, and I haven't got much more in the way of motivation to learn, so what does that statement say about me? Should I give up now? [/quote] No idea if you should give up as I haven't heard you play but many people can fashion a few riffs of slap bass and use it as their little party trick. It is just syncopation and that can be pretty easy to get quickly for some. If you have no inclination towards it, I doubt you'll be any good at it as you need to dig deep to not sound cliqued....but by the same token, people may well spend so much time of their practice regime to apply it for a few minutes. You are right to stay away from it as it is very easy to sound cheesy and hard to sound remotely original thinking, IMO Personally, a fill should be limited to 2 bars absolute maximum, IMO... unless you intend to build the whole song around the riff, but............. err...see above.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1345392509' post='1776998'] The point of this thread is people who's sound is clangy to cover inadequacies. I'm suggesting the inadequacy is the cabinets of choice, or copying the tone thereof. [/quote] yep, agree to get to the topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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