Scales and theory issues

[Jam]

Working through Stuart Clayton's Scales and Modes book, but I'm really struggling with it today. I sat down after having a bit of a play around with major/minor scales over jam tracks on youtube, and thought I'd do some more practice, try and unravel some more theory.

I've been through all [i]7 chapters[/i] on major/minor scales (though I was tempted to skip some of the exercises...) and stumbled through the section on the circle of fifths but the deeper I get into the book the less I understand. I just spent 10 minutes trying to understand a couple of sentences, and I feel like I'm reading a different language.

I'm sure I'll get it eventually but I feel so stupid at the moment! :/

For example, in the C Major scale, the chord progression is:

C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim, C
I ii iii IV V vi vii I

So, in any keymajor scale, will ii, iii, and vi always be minor? Will I, IV and V be major? Is vii always diminished?

For example, A major scale:

A, Bm, Cm, D, E, Fm, Gdim, A

Is that correct? How on earth am I going to remember that when I'm playing?!

Edited August 21, 2012 by Jam

[WalMan]

Mine arrived today. I'll tell you later.........p'raps

[Mr Fretbuzz]

I read loads of this stuff and only some of it sticks :-(. ..better than none I guess :-)

Just read and listened to Stuart Clayton Bass Styles :-). Good useful stuff

Edited August 21, 2012 by Mr Fretbuzz

[peteb]

[quote name='Jam' timestamp='1345581041' post='1779170']
For example, A major scale:

A, Bm, Cm, D, E, Fm, Gdim, A

Is that correct? How on earth am I going to remember that when I'm playing?!
[/quote]
Not quite - for A major it should C#m, F#m & G#dim in place of Cm, Fm & Gdim.

If you are playing the dominant 7th scale (can never remember the correct names of the modes), it would be the same except that it would be (I think) Gmaj7 instead of G#dim (I am sure someone who has studied more theory will correct me if that is not quite right).

I have never been taught this stuff (don't really read, etc) but you do pick up a working understanding of it all as you go along - it will start to make sense the more that you play!

Edited August 21, 2012 by peteb

[rogerstodge]

Ive been watching this on YTube. He's very good at explaining things..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad8R7n5k_ac&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Coilte]

If you stack your thirds, it should make things clearer.

C maj = CDEFGAB

If we build in thirds from the bottom up we will get all the diatonic chords in the C maj scale. So, from the bottom up this gives us :




BCDEFGA
GABCDEF
EFGABCD
CDEFGAB


So, reading from the bottom up, from left to right we have the seven diatonic chords of the C Maj scale. The intervals between each note of a given chord determines whether it is Maj, minor diminished etc. For example : the second chord ( second line from the left, from the bottom up is DFAC. This is minor because from D to F is an interval of a minor third.

[Jam]

[quote name='rogerstodge' timestamp='1345584181' post='1779222']
Ive been watching this on YTube. He's very good at explaining things..


[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad8R7n5k_ac&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/media]
[/quote]

That was good. I think I learn better from videos than just from books..

[louisthebass]

[quote name='Jam' timestamp='1345581041' post='1779170']
Working through Stuart Clayton's Scales and Modes book, but I'm really struggling with it today. I sat down after having a bit of a play around with major/minor scales over jam tracks on youtube, and thought I'd do some more practice, try and unravel some more theory.

I've been through all [i]7 chapters[/i] on major/minor scales (though I was tempted to skip some of the exercises...) and stumbled through the section on the circle of fifths but the deeper I get into the book the less I understand. I just spent 10 minutes trying to understand a couple of sentences, and I feel like I'm reading a different language.

I'm sure I'll get it eventually but I feel so stupid at the moment! :/

For example, in the C Major scale, the chord progression is:

C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim, C
I ii iii IV V vi vii I

So, in any keymajor scale, will ii, iii, and vi always be minor? Will I, IV and V be major? Is vii always diminished?

For example, A major scale:

A, Bm, Cm, D, E, Fm, Gdim, A

Is that correct? How on earth am I going to remember that when I'm playing?!
[/quote]

The best thing to do is to harmonise (sp?) the major scale like this:

I = Major 7 Chord
II = Minor 7 Chord
III = Minor 7 Chord
IV = Major 7 Chord
V = Dominant 7 Chord
IV = Minor 7 Chord
IIV = Minor 7 flat 5 Chord or Half Diminished Chord

This applies for any key in the circle of fifths as detailed in the book. The above is (pretty much) the basis for Western music as we understand it in terms of pop & rock music anyway.

If you're really struggling with it, send Stuart a PM (he's a member of the forum) & I'm sure he'll be able to make it pretty easy to understand.

[Dood]

[quote name='Jam' timestamp='1345581041' post='1779170']
For example, A major scale:

A, Bm, Cm, D, E, Fm, Gdim, A

Is that correct? How on earth am I going to remember that when I'm playing?!
[/quote]

As Peteb has pointed out, not quite. Let's keep this REALLY simple - it's WAY too easy to make this confusing!

Remember that the 'rule' for a Major scale is

T T S T T T S

Although Stuart does say that he wants to shy away from just demonstrating patterns parrot fashion, I think in this case a simple pattern under the fingers can be a god send!

Here's our 'rule' laid out on on the ole 4 stringer. If you know your fretboard well, then just using this pattern and what you have pointed out earlier you can 'work out' firstly what all 7 notes of a given major scale are and then whether or not the chords derived from each of those 7 steps step are major or minor. (we are only concerning ourselves with triads at the moment for ease of understanding.)

[media]http://www.bassguitarscale.info/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/guitar-bass-scale-major2.jpg[/media]


For example:

i - Major Chord
ii - Minor Chord
iii - Minor Chord
iv - Major Chord
v - Major Chord
vi - Minor Chord
vii - Dom Chord

lay your pattern out starting on D for example and you should find the notes D E F# G A B C# and back to D if you are continuing up to the octave.

You can then surmise that again as an example, the third chord ('iii' above) in the key of D Major will be F# Minor.

[rogerstodge]

[quote name='Jam' timestamp='1345585449' post='1779242']


That was good. I think I learn better from videos than just from books..
[/quote]yea me too.. He's got more lessons online than just this one there's quite a few of them

[Jam]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1345585322' post='1779238']
If you stack your thirds, it should make things clearer.

C maj = CDEFGAB

If we build in thirds from the bottom up we will get all the diatonic chords in the C maj scale. So, from the bottom up this gives us :




BCDEFGA
GABCDEF
EFGABCD
CDEFGAB


So, reading from the bottom up, from left to right we have the seven diatonic chords of the C Maj scale. The intervals between each note of a given chord determines whether it is Maj, minor diminished etc. For example : the second chord ( second line from the left, from the bottom up is DFAC. This is minor because from D to F is an interval of a minor third.
[/quote]

Cheers man, that helps a little, but how is it that D to F is an interval of a minor third? Say, if you fretted D on the 5th fret of the A, F is the 3rd fret on the D, that's how you know it's a minor 3rd? Is there no other way of working that out than fretting it? I was trying to see if there was a logic behind it that I could work out if I didn't have a bass to hand...

[Jam]

Oh god I'm such a mong, I've just realised my mistake with the A Major example! I think perhaps it IS good to use the major "shape" to work things out sometimes. Thank you guys, I love this forum!

Dood, can I assume then that no matter where on the neck I play the major scale box, the following still applies?:

i - Major Chord
ii - Minor Chord
iii - Minor Chord
iv - Major Chord
v - Major Chord
vi - Minor Chord
vii - Dom Chord

[Coilte]

[quote name='Jam' timestamp='1345585956' post='1779253']
Cheers man, that helps a little, but how is it that D to F is an interval of a minor third? Say, if you fretted D on the 5th fret of the A, F is the 3rd fret on the D, that's how you know it's a minor 3rd? Is there no other way of working that out than fretting it? I was trying to see if there was a logic behind it that I could work out if I didn't have a bass to hand...
[/quote]

I hope I dont seem harsh when I suggest that you should forget about modes for the time being, if you dont know your intervals. I think you need to take a few steps back, in order to get the basics down.


Intervals are explained well here :

[url="http://www.studybass.com/lessons/intervals/"]http://www.studybass.com/lessons/intervals/[/url]



Another reason for not getting too bogged down in modes, but to concentrate on chord tones instead for now, is explained on the same site here :


[url="http://www.studybass.com/lessons/bass-chord-patterns/chord-tones-are-primary/"]http://www.studybass.com/lessons/bass-chord-patterns/chord-tones-are-primary/[/url]

[oggiesnr]

There is a logic but you do need to buckle down and do the boring bit of learning the theory . My quick and dirty way is to write out two scales worth of piano keyboard from C to C2 and work from there applying the theory, a tone becomes two spaces and a semitone one.. So A major becomes A, B C#, D, E, F#, G#, A, following the tone, tone, semitone, tone etc pattern. Obviously applying it bass does mean that you need to know your fretboard.

Steve

[Dood]

[quote name='Jam' timestamp='1345586404' post='1779266']
Oh god I'm such a mong, I've just realised my mistake with the A Major example! I think perhaps it IS good to use the major "shape" to work things out sometimes. Thank you guys, I love this forum!

Dood, can I assume then that no matter where on the neck I play the major scale box, the following still applies?:

i - Major Chord
ii - Minor Chord
iii - Minor Chord
iv - Major Chord
v - Major Chord
vi - Minor Chord
vii - Dom Chord
[/quote]

As long as your are working out a Major key (e.g D Major in my example) then you will adhere to the TTSTTTS 'rule' and therefore the same 'rule' pattern on a standard tuned (fourths) bass. You can stretch it over 4,5,6,7 strings and get the same results anywhere on the neck.

[Dood]

p.s. - yes, I think it's all too easy to drown a student with waaaaay too much detail when it's not needed (yet).

[Coilte]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1345587079' post='1779282']
p.s. - yes, I think it's all too easy to drown a student with waaaaay too much detail when it's not needed (yet).
[/quote]


+ 100.

[Dood]

[quote name='Jam' timestamp='1345585956' post='1779253']
Cheers man, that helps a little, but how is it that D to F is an interval of a minor third? Say, if you fretted D on the 5th fret of the A, F is the 3rd fret on the D, that's how you know it's a minor 3rd? Is there no other way of working that out than fretting it? I was trying to see if there was a logic behind it that I could work out if I didn't have a bass to hand...
[/quote]

I'd love to have you over for a lesson or two - I've devised a really easy and clear way of making all of this very easy to grasp and understand , but I don't seem to see my way of delivering it in books! Wow - maybe I should write a book!

[Jam]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1345586778' post='1779273']
I hope I dont seem harsh when I suggest that you should forget about modes for the time being, if you dont know your intervals. I think you need to take a few steps back, in order to get the basics down.


Intervals are explained well here :

[url="http://www.studybass.com/lessons/intervals/"]http://www.studybass...sons/intervals/[/url]
[/quote]

No man, not harsh at all. It's something I need to know (and I appreciate the guidance!), I've had bits and bobs explained to me and learned from books but that's never something I've had spelled out. I understand what a minor third is (in relation to the root), and I can tell you what it is/show you when I have a bass to hand, but not without, if that makes sense?

Edited August 21, 2012 by Jam

[Coilte]

[quote name='Jam' timestamp='1345587403' post='1779296']
No man, not harsh at all. It's something I need to know (and I appreciate the guidance!), I've had bits and bobs explained to me and learned from books but that's never something I've had spelled out. I understand what a minor third is, and I can tell you what it is/show you when I have a bass to hand, but not without, if that makes sense?
[/quote]

Yep, that makes sense alright. The only disadvantage with learning on your own through books, the net etc is that there is a LOT of information out there. Sometimes it is hard to know where to start, and how to proceed. Theory has to be learned from the basics up. If you jump in at the middle, then you may not understand certain things, because you have not learned what went before. Hope this makes sense.

That "Study Bass" site is excellent IMO.

[Jam]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1345587920' post='1779304']
Yep, that makes sense alright. The only disadvantage with learning on your own through books, the net etc is that there is a LOT of information out there. Sometimes it is hard to know where to start, and how to proceed. Theory has to be learned from the basics up. If you jump in at the middle, then you may not understand certain things, because you have not learned what went before. Hope this makes sense.

That "Study Bass" site is excellent IMO.
[/quote]

Yeah it seems like a good resource, I'll have a trawl through that later. I've also been watching some Scott Devine videos and he makes a lot of sense too

[Coilte]

[quote name='Jam' timestamp='1345588182' post='1779310']
I've also been watching some Scott Devine videos and he makes a lot of sense too
[/quote]

He is one of the best teachers on the net IMO.

[Fat Rich]

[quote name='louisthebass' timestamp='1345585652' post='1779244']
The best thing to do is to harmonise (sp?) the major scale like this:

I = Major 7 Chord
II = Minor 7 Chord
III = Minor 7 Chord
IV = Major 7 Chord
V = Dominant 7 Chord
IV = Minor 7 Chord
IIV = Minor 7 flat 5 Chord or Half Diminished Chord

This applies for any key in the circle of fifths as detailed in the book. The above is (pretty much) the basis for Western music as we understand it in terms of pop & rock music anyway.

If you're really struggling with it, send Stuart a PM (he's a member of the forum) & I'm sure he'll be able to make it pretty easy to understand.
[/quote]

Figuring this stuff out will open a lot of doors into music theory, it's the building blocks of pretty much everything.

The good thing about learning this stuff is that it applies to the chords, the arpeggios and the modes... you're actually learning three things at once. Throw in that the relative minor (let's say A minor) of a major scale (in this case C Major) uses all the same notes, you're only a small step away from harmonising the minor scales too.

(You can start harmonising the harmonic minor and the melodic minor scales, but then you're into pretty advanced territory, I find it's easier to remember the altered scales by associating them to tune you know. For example the Lydian Dominant scale is the theme to The Simpsons)

You'll also find while your brain is thrashing about trying to work all the note names and intervals out, pretty soon your fingers will just starting finding the notes on the bass by themselves, you'll get a feel for where the intervals are and you'll find working songs out by ear much much easier too.

Generally, the more of a struggle you have learning this stuff, the more likely you'll remember it when you get it And then you can start forgetting it and just play.

Good luck!

Edited August 22, 2012 by Fat Rich

[Mr Fretbuzz]

I surrender.... Think I'll ride my bike instead :-)

[Bass-Thing]

[quote name='rogerstodge' timestamp='1345584181' post='1779222']
Ive been watching this on YTube. He's very good at explaining things..


[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad8R7n5k_ac&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/media]
[/quote]

This is really good. Clarified a lot.