Wal Bass Growl? Anything Else Like It?

[Dingus]

I know that Wal thought the most dominant feature of their basses was their unique pickup design . The choice of woods made a significant difference but the pickups and electronics made them all sound like a Wal , which ever combination you chose,

[xilddx]

[quote name='x_Morning_Star_x' timestamp='1345887690' post='1782731']
Haha yeah sorry "Growl" is a bad word to use , well the guy on this link has Justin's sound nailed although he uses a Wal [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtM-rKr-ueI[/media] i i know you guys say you can get a similar tone from a stingray and thunderbird, and actually i am thinking about getting a thunderbird along with a sansamp bass driver pedal to go through my GK2001rb i should manage to get somewhere near with that set up really
[/quote]
That is tuned to D flat. If you use a roundwound 105/110 E and tune it to D flat, I can almost guarantee to you will get the sound you're after. And it's not so much the 'growl' you are hearing, it's the way the string starts slightly sharp when you hit it and then settles in to pitch. It sounds heavy and aggressive.

Also, get a bolt on, neck throughs apparently lack an area of mid range that may contribute to your 'growly' sound.

Edited August 25, 2012 by silddx

[rubis]

If you are interested in aftermarket pickups and electronics cloned on the Wal innards, try a search on Talkbass in the "pickups and electronics" section for a thread called "I won the Wal pickup on e-bay"
At the end of the thread an American pickup maker called SGD Lutherie is making quad coil pickups and filter pre's emulating the Wal design

[Graham]

If you want Chancellor's tone on a budget, a G&L L2000 Tribute with a Sansamp BDDI into a clear sounding amp like a Hartke or Gallien Kruger would do it

[Wolverinebass]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1345908759' post='1783016']
Also, get a bolt on, neck throughs apparently lack an area of mid range that may contribute to your 'growly' sound.
[/quote]

Really? I never knew that. I suppose that might explain why my Warmoth 8 string is very mid ranged. I always thought it was the status pickups and EMG circuit.

[quote name='rubis' timestamp='1345915795' post='1783134']
If you are interested in aftermarket pickups and electronics cloned on the Wal innards, try a search on Talkbass in the "pickups and electronics" section for a thread called "I won the Wal pickup on e-bay"
At the end of the thread an American pickup maker called SGD Lutherie is making quad coil pickups and filter pre's emulating the Wal design
[/quote]

I've read that. Quite interesting, but I wonder if it'll ever be realised. The thread has been going on for almost 4 years and people are starting to get impatient. I'm waiting to see if it ever comes to anything especially as let's face it Wals are ruinously expensive. If SGD come up with something that's similar, he's got a licence to print money. I for one would happily get stuff from Warmoth and bung some cloned pickups and circuit if in effect it'd save me the better part of £2.5K on getting a Wal. However, it's not like I haven't started saving for one on the off chance, so whatever happens, I'll be getting something as one can never have enough basses surely?!!

The only other things which seem like they're similar are the ACG developments. Of course Alan is only going to put that particular circuit and pickups in his own basses. As they're gorgeous to look at (in terms of wood) and very reasonably priced you'd think that'd be a winner, but sadly none of the shapes really appeal to me for reasons which I can't as yet fathom other than I think singlecuts look stupid and none of the others appeal to me. Such a pity really.

[Graham]

If you wanted after-market electronics which emulate a Wal, I'd have thought a call to Wizard and John East would get you something pretty close. Probably not cheap though as they wouldn't be off the shelf models.

[skelf]

Hi
Just to let you know the original dual filter pre-amp the EQ01 is now available out with my basses. This has a lowpass filter per pickup instead of the one global lowpass filter of the 02 version.
The mufti-coil pickup I am working o will only be available in my own basses with the EQ03 pre-amp,

Alan


[quote name='Wolverinebass' timestamp='1345924449' post='1783290']
The only other things which seem like they're similar are the ACG developments. Of course Alan is only going to put that particular circuit and pickups in his own basses. As they're gorgeous to look at (in terms of wood) and very reasonably priced you'd think that'd be a winner, but sadly none of the shapes really appeal to me for reasons which I can't as yet fathom other than I think singlecuts look stupid and none of the others appeal to me. Such a pity really.
[/quote]

Edited August 25, 2012 by skelf

[Wolverinebass]

[quote name='skelf' timestamp='1345927217' post='1783336']
Hi
Just to let you know the original dual filter pre-amp the EQ01 is now available out with my basses. This has a lowpass filter per pickup instead of the one global lowpass filter of the 02 version.
The mufti-coil pickup I am working o will only be available in my own basses with the EQ03 pre-amp,

Alan
[/quote]

Hi Alan, sorry about the confusion. I actually meant your newer preamp the 03 version as I presumed that would be closest to a Wal type preamp with it's seemingly limitless control over the mids (not to mention the rest of the signal) that seems possible with it. In all likelihood, I'd imagine yours would be much more flexible and dare I say it - better than Wal's. I was just lamenting that it was a pity that such things would only be available in your own basses as I'd imagine you'd have people biting most of your arm off for that combination. But on the other hand if you sell a bass or a truckload as the case may be because of the combination, that can only be a good thing.

I think that your basses are spectacular to look at and sound great from the samples I've heard, but it's just a pity that the body shapes aren't ones that I'd dig on. If you flogged the pickups and circuit seperately, I'd have that. Naturally I can understand the reasons why that won't happen.

[skelf]

HI
It is hard to have a unique selling point in an ever more crowded market so I have to keep something that sets my basses apart for all the others at least in that one aspect. The 01 pre-amp will put you in Wal territory but it also does a lot that is not possible with the Wal pre-amp. As I have said before it has never been my intention to copy the Wal circuit which I could have done right from the start but neither myself nor John East wanted to go down that route. Both of us were/are uncomfortable pinching someone else's work so we worked on what we felt was a more flexible set up than the Wal and Alembic. The new version the 03 does indeed give great control over the mids and does make achieving the Wal type sound easier that however was not the purpose. I have had five years of customer feedback on the original 01 so the improvements were in response to that feedback. John East again upped the bar and we are both very happy with the results. Having had the 01/02 pre-amps for sale for a number of years as the only filter based pre-amp in that price bracket the sales are not what people imagine despite all the interest in the Wal sound. I think SGD might be a bit disappointed in the ratio of interest to sales.

Sorry the shapes don't appeal but looking at your signature I can see why I am not in the ballpark. I am always working on new ideas maybe I will hit on something you like in the future

Alan

[Wolverinebass]

I can understand that totally Alan. Your preamps are more flexible that my Alembic easily. They're more like the Series II Alembic electronics on steroids. At least in my opinion. Plus, considering the price point of your basses, one cannot feel that your features to cost ratio is very, very high indeed. A lot is being got for the cash. At least that's what I think. I mean, how much is a series II Alembic? £15K? Ouch....

Why copy something when you can make something original that's better? You and John East clearly have. I can see what you mean about interest translating into actual sales though.

If you ever make something in a more outlandish shape I'll be on it!!

[skelf]

Thanks for the kind words they are appreciated.
The most outlandish I have built was this ergonomic bass I built just to try out some ideas. The lowpass filter goes lower than the Alembic to the same as the Wal filter but it also goes as high as the Alembic which is higher than the Wal. There is also the high pass filter which has quiet a big overlap with the lowpass. So it covers the ground of both plus added flexibility.
Not my labelling done by a guy that tried it out.

Edited August 25, 2012 by skelf

[Gust0o]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1345848974' post='1782518']
I wanted that 'classic Jazz bass squeak' but mine had a Badass II on, so it sort of snarled. I hear the word 'bark' a lot too, but these things are made of trees so of course they do.
[/quote]

If you want to nail that growl, bark and snarl... I'd install one of these instead of your more conventional pick-ups.

[Gust0o]

Skelf, that bass is mind-bending - but you can see the tought that went into each element.

What did your man make of it?

[skelf]

It went down very well. I fretted it to sell it as the customer already had a fretless from me. I will build another one at some point and try to refine the design a shade.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Graham' timestamp='1345920291' post='1783214']If you want Chancellor's tone on a budget, a G&L L2000 Tribute with a Sansamp BDDI into a clear sounding amp like a Hartke or Gallien Kruger would do it[/quote]

Yeah that's a good idea. L2000s are so versatile there's very little they can't do. Wish they didn't look so plain though.

[Chris2112]

[quote name='x_Morning_Star_x' timestamp='1345806977' post='1781752']
i know that 90% must be his bass that accomplishes that tone so im guessing its a long shot but worth asking about :-P
[/quote]

The Musicman Bongo will get you very close with the right effects. I've said it before and I'll say it again, but there isn't much of the typical Wal sound in Justin's tone. He is so often souped in effects, which swamps most of the tone and then the pick gets it to 'clang' without the typical burpy mid/soft treble sound you might hear from a Wal. The Bongo is a great choice, especially as it's dual band mid controls give you a lot of flexibility.

My old ACG was also a good one for getting that big, fruity Wal sound. Mind you, it was all that and more. The ACG circuit is a much newer design than the Wal circuit, and it shows.

[djaxup]

I don't really know where this "Justin drowns his sound in effects, so the bass type is irrelevant" misinformation comes from. Schism, Disposition... well just about every song without the distortion effects display the Wal sound quite nicely i think. And tbh, every kind of harsher distortion/fuzz pretty much makes the type of bass involved not too important. My Wal sounds a lot like Schism just with a pick and a sansamp. My other basses sound nowhere near it. If i play with the GK RB1001 with Mesa cab the sound is very close, too - without the sansamp. If i use the Warwick $$, guess what i get a much cleaner sound with more bottom and snarl. I use the P-Bass, exact same other settings, and get that hollow metallic bark you would expect from a P-Bass with pick and rounds. The Wal is the essence of his sound. Just using a pick and a sansamp and any bass with two pickups will get you into his direction though, but without getting that special voice.
Use a pick, a clean modern amp and a wal, and you will get "that sound". Wals have a strangely unorganic, a tad muffled sound without pick attack (a special button) engaged, but imo a pick really brings them to live with a crisp and powerful sound with a very special ringy yet squarky tone especially on the G and D strings. I never heard anything like it.

Listen to "the pot" intro, or that Stinkfist breakdown at 4:05 mins
"Reflection" bass part starts at 20 seconds into the track, thats just what a Wal sounds like with a pick. No plethora of effects... i wonder what kind of effects ppl suspect here? He has a lot of effects, true. If you want examples of that, the Schism bass solo at 04:00 mins or the beginning of "Right in Two" are good examples. Or that Jambi signature riff at 01:03, where you still unmistakably hear a Wal scream.

[lettsguitars]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1345849029' post='1782519']
Is natural growl a product of nature? Or anger?
[/quote]Growl, I think, is the high end punch that you get from certain pickups. That is the key here, pickups. Wal made his own whereas 99% of all basses have machine wound pickups which lose a lot of definition due to capacitance caused by uniformly wound coils. Wal basses also had seperate coils for each pole enabling seperate eq'ing of each string.

[Dingus]

[quote name='djaxup' timestamp='1353669741' post='1877140']
I don't really know where this "Justin drowns his sound in effects, so the bass type is irrelevant" misinformation comes from. Schism, Disposition... well just about every song without the distortion effects display the Wal sound quite nicely i think. And tbh, every kind of harsher distortion/fuzz pretty much makes the type of bass involved not too important. My Wal sounds a lot like Schism just with a pick and a sansamp. My other basses sound nowhere near it. If i play with the GK RB1001 with Mesa cab the sound is very close, too - without the sansamp. If i use the Warwick $$, guess what i get a much cleaner sound with more bottom and snarl. I use the P-Bass, exact same other settings, and get that hollow metallic bark you would expect from a P-Bass with pick and rounds. The Wal is the essence of his sound. Just using a pick and a sansamp and any bass with two pickups will get you into his direction though, but without getting that special voice.
Use a pick, a clean modern amp and a wal, and you will get "that sound". Wals have a strangely unorganic, a tad muffled sound without pick attack (a special button) engaged, but imo a pick really brings them to live with a crisp and powerful sound with a very special ringy yet squarky tone especially on the G and D strings. I never heard anything like it.

Listen to "the pot" intro, or that Stinkfist breakdown at 4:05 mins
"Reflection" bass part starts at 20 seconds into the track, thats just what a Wal sounds like with a pick. No plethora of effects... i wonder what kind of effects ppl suspect here? He has a lot of effects, true. If you want examples of that, the Schism bass solo at 04:00 mins or the beginning of "Right in Two" are good examples. Or that Jambi signature riff at 01:03, where you still unmistakably hear a Wal scream.
[/quote]

I've just listened to the music in question , and none of those sounds are typically characteristic of the classic Wal sound i.e the sound which typified Wal basses during their classic era . Justin seems to emphasize the treble end of the spectrum somewhat , which itself is further emphasized by his use of a pick . If you think that Wal basses sound "muffled " and "strangley unorganic " without the pick attack on then I can only surmise that you yourself too like to favour the top end on your Wal . Nothing wrong with that . The simple fact is though , that to to most people the sound associated with Wal basses is very , very different to the tone Justin Channcelor uses with Tool . Wal is synonymous with a very prominent low mid emphasis , coupled with an effortlessly deep bottom end . All I can suppose is that Justin Chancellor favours these basses because they retain some of that big bottom even after he has added so much treble and drenched his sound in effects . In that sense , the Wal bass is part of his sound , but broadly speaking you could easily replicate his sound with a whole host of other basses . If you wanted to sound like Geddy Lee on Power Windows or Alan Spenner on a certain era of Roxy Music records or Mick Karn in Japan then I would say that only a Wal will get you there , but when it comes to Justin and his sound in Tool I would still say it ends up being a far more generic and processed bass sound than on a whole host of tracks I could reel off that feature players using Wal Basses .

[djaxup]

It's fine to disagree. Whatever exact range of the sound you favor, the characteristic treble and high mid sound of the wal is just that - very characteristic, and i challenge you to record a piece with another bass and replicate that very voicing. Trust me, it is not easy if not impossible. I had one bass that is said to be very close to the Wal sound, an EBMM Bongo. While being a very nice bass it didn't give that voicing at all.
You can easily get into the same territory with just about any bass, and if you stop there and won't listen to details then that's it pretty much. Listen to some Disposition Bass Covers on Youtube:

[url="https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=disposition+bass+cover&oq=disposition+bass&gs_l=youtube-reduced.3.0.0i19l2j0i5i19l2.85410.88285.0.89023.10.10.0.0.0.0.77.671.10.10.0...0.0...1ac.1.xa-Kv1WEU0M"]https://www.youtube....c.1.xa-Kv1WEU0M[/url]

And then tell me the other basses sound anything like the two guys who do the cover with their wal. Remi Zik, the first one, is a sick bassist and plays in a successful and internationally touring tool cover band, and has gone a long way to achieve the tone. His bass is basically a custom made Wal Mk2 rebuild, and still it sounds nothing like it. Sounds good, but not like a wal.


Mick Karn is acutally a very good example because one can hear the G and D strings sing very nice in that froggy squarky way that only a Wal can produce, in my opinion. And i say the Tool bass sound is too a typical wal sound that is hard to achieve with another kind of bass. Just like both Jamerson and that Rage Against Guy - both sport a classic and typical P-Bass sound, yet they could not be more different in sound.
Mick Karn and Geddy Lee also sport completely different sounds in character, still both are superb wal sounds.

And please elaborate where Reflection or Schism are "drenched in effects", i just don't hear it. My Wal sounds exactly like this, as i told... without any effect pedal.

Edited November 23, 2012 by djaxup

[Dingus]

[quote name='djaxup' timestamp='1353685111' post='1877465']
It's fine to disagree. Whatever exact range of the sound you favor, the characteristic treble and high mid sound of the wal is just that - very characteristic, and i challenge you to record a piece with another bass and replicate that very voicing. Trust me, it is not easy if not impossible. I had one bass that is said to be very close to the Wal sound, an EBMM Bongo. While being a very nice bass it didn't give that voicing at all.
You can easily get into the same territory with just about any bass, and if you stop there and won't listen to details then that's it pretty much. Listen to some Disposition Bass Covers on Youtube:

[url="https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=disposition+bass+cover&oq=disposition+bass&gs_l=youtube-reduced.3.0.0i19l2j0i5i19l2.85410.88285.0.89023.10.10.0.0.0.0.77.671.10.10.0...0.0...1ac.1.xa-Kv1WEU0M"]https://www.youtube....c.1.xa-Kv1WEU0M[/url]

And then tell me the other basses sound anything like the two guys who do the cover with their wal. Remi Zik, the first one, is a sick bassist and plays in a successful and internationally touring tool cover band, and has gone a long way to achieve the tone. His bass is basically a custom made Wal Mk2 rebuild, and still it sounds nothing like it. Sounds good, but not like a wal.


Mick Karn is acutally a very good example because one can hear the G and D strings sing very nice in that froggy squarky way that only a Wal can produce, in my opinion. And i say the Tool bass sound is too a typical wal sound that is hard to achieve with another kind of bass. Just like both Jamerson and that Rage Against Guy - both sport a classic and typical P-Bass sound, yet they could not be more different in sound.
Mick Karn and Geddy Lee also sport completely different sounds in character, still both are superb wal sounds.

And please elaborate where Reflection or Schism are "drenched in effects", i just don't hear it. My Wal sounds exactly like this, as i told... without any effect pedal.
[/quote]

I take your point and agree entirely that the Wal is a unique ( and fantastic sounding ) bass but I just find Justin Chancellors tone a bit too generic to be archetypal of what I and many others would consider typical of those basses . I am not suggesting that every note Justin Channcellor has ever played is drenched in effects , but he does rely on them heavily . He is certainly not alone in this ; a lot of those modern rock guys are using a lot of effects nowadays . That is just the trend I suppose , but to what ends is another question entirely . On the tracks you mention , Schism is a heavily processed bass sound with distortion and compression certainly in effect . Reflection sounds like it is using compression but is otherwise a relatively clean signal by Justin Chancellors usual standards .

No other bass will sound like a Wal unless it has Wal pickups and electronics , and as far as I know they have never been replicated . Regarding a Wal compared to a Bongo , these are two basses that I am intimately familiar with and you are quite right that they are completely different . If by the Rage Against Guy you mean Tim Commerford of RATM he has never to the best of my knowledge used a Precision , he favours a Jazz bass except on the first album where he used a Stingray . If you yourself play a Wal then you have got a truly unique sounding bass , for sure , that is capable of so many great tones that I wouldn't get too hung up on what Justin Chancellor sounds like . To be absolutely frank with you I find the popularity of Tool as band a bit mystifying and the kind of profile Justin has as a player completley unwarranted , but the whole thing is just not my cup of tea so each to their own and all that . I have just been having a listen with headphones on and when he plays withy a clean tone he sounds like he is playing a Wal with the attack boost on with both pickups on full and the active e.q clicked in the on position both left on 10 for maximum treble and a slight roll off in the bass , if I remember correctly . Once a Wal player , always a Wal player . So maybe on certain tracks you can tell he's playing a Wal , but it's certainly not as obvious , to me at least , as it is with some other notable Wal players . Enjoy your Wal bass , you've got one of best basses on the planet .

Edited November 23, 2012 by Dingus

[djaxup]

i certainly do, thanks man. It was kinda obvious that you are mainly having a gripe with the music and the in your opinion unwarranted acclaim the guy is getting. His bass sound got me to pick up a bass guitar in the first place, if that's all the good he has done in his musicans live, i still have a lot to thank him for. Best decision ever, really. To be honest - everytime i hear Geddy playing i am completely unimpressed. He sure has skills, but his tone is obnoxious especially with that jazz bass. The Wal on the other hand... it made the best it could out of his robotic mid heavy sound. I love Mick Karn and his sound, it is so unique. Everyone noticed the Bass guitar in the songs if he played it, always one of the main attractions. But really, he went overboard with the tone controls and "drowned his sound" by cutting away any treble the bass had to deliver. But it fit with the music extremely well and was just unique.

I am having a problem with people dismissing the use of effects just for the sake of it or make it sound like JC is using them to hide his flawed playing, because really, thats what you make it sound like. He has sick right hand technique, and the sound just fits very well in a band composition like this. And i think his usage of said effects is artistic and unique to say the least. I know... bassists don't need effects, and playing with a pick is the way of the devil open your mind man. I prefer playing with my fingers, but if the song calls for it i play with a pick. It's all about making the band sound best and i think he does that very well. I have three final Songs for you to listen to, if you can spare the time. Interesting because JC is not using a Wal on two of them and in the last one he plays with his fingers:

Forty-Six & 2 (Stingray)
H. (Stingray)
10.000 days / wings part 2

And i feel it's quite easy to tell that he is not using the Wal for the first two songs, even over all the processing and mastering and in case of forty-six & 2 the heavy flanger. Stingrays have their signature sound, too - but they were copied to hell and back.

I didn't mean Timmy Commerford, my fault. That's totally Jazz Bass / Stingray area. I meant Rise against - John Principe is the name of the guy, very hip with the younger bassists. Classic overdriven P-Bass / SVT sound.

[Dingus]

Tools music just isn't my idea of fun , but I have tried hard to listen to them and understand their appeal to such a huge audience . I respect any band that writes their own material and strives to create an individual sound . There is no doubt that , ironically enough , they occupy a very similar position as a cult band with a massive following that Rush did in the 1970s and early 1980s .

The acclaim that Justin gets as a player is not unwarranted in so much as his playing is an integral part of that band's music , but I certainly wouldn't descibe him as a virtuoso . He just isn't that capable a player -he's good within the idiom in which he plays , but not great . I dont think Justin uses effects to hide flawed playing , but effects are no substitute for musicality . It's one thing to create interesting music by using sound effects , but to create captivating music by purely by playing the bass in a compelling and convincing style is an altogether more skilled endeavour . The ability to play transcends equipment- Jaco Pastorius would have still sounded like Jaco Pastorius on any old bass because what made him was what was in his head and his hands . If you want to emulate Justin Chancellor because he inspires you then then that is great , but the most important thing in doing so is to try and understand the way he thinks about playing the bass , not neccesarily copying his equipment and getting hung up on what he uses , because that just isn't that important. If Justin woke up tomorrow morning and decided that on the next Tool album he was going to play a Fender Precision through an Ampeg SVT and not use any effects then I guarantee that he would still sound like Justin Chancellor and the band would still sound like Tool.

When I was a kid everybody ( including me ) wanted a Rickenbacker to be like Geddy Lee and Chris Squier , so nothing changes in that respect .

Edited November 26, 2012 by Dingus

[djaxup]

amen to all that. He is surely not a new Jaco or something along those lines, but i absolutely like his creative thinking and for being such an important part to his bands sound and feel.

[mckendrick]

[quote name='djaxup' timestamp='1353940403' post='1879962']
.... i absolutely like his creative thinking and for being such an important part to his bands sound and feel.
[/quote]
And indeed that's all you need to be.

Just an aside: my Mom used to have a dog called Wal who was not only so named but who also uncannilly had a growl similar to his bass namesake. My Mom had no affilliation to the comapny that manufactured the bass.

I'll get me coat....