Root and octave

[thinman]

Probably a bit basic but...

When playing disco-style root and octave, what's the best technique? We play Pulp's Disco 2000 and the bits in the verse where its just F and Bb root and octaves kills my left (fretting) hand.

The right hand seems OK - I've tried both index and middle pinky plus thumb and index without problem but I think the notes shouldn't ring so some left-hand damping is required. I do that by lifting-off slightly but that really knackers my little finger when repeating for any period. (I, probably wrongly, use my middle and little fingers for root and octave).

Should I keep the notes fretted and use a different damping technique?

[wotnwhy]

fret with index and pinky, use your ring finger on top of the pinky to help stop it getting tired (double bass style).

if this is still knackering your hand it might be worth doing some fretting excercises to build strengh

[Thunderthumbs]

I play this too, and I know where you're coming from.

wotnwhy's right though. Best way for me is index and pinky, so strengthening exercises is probably best if it doesn't appear to be feeling any easier the more you do it.

[thinman]

Thanks chaps. I've probably been a bit too hung up on keeping a finger-to-a-fret for this.

So it's index on root and little finger with ring finger on top. I take it the damping technique is the same then?

[wotnwhy]

yep, just release pressure slightly when you was the note to die.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='wotnwhy' post='189239' date='Apr 30 2008, 09:06 PM']fret with index and pinky, use your ring finger on top of the pinky to help stop it getting tired (double bass style).

if this is still knackering your hand it might be worth doing some fretting excercises to build strengh[/quote]
just for clarity, ring finger on top of little finger [i]does not[/i] represent double bass fingering, ring and little finger together on the string does. I would support the latter, and don't think placing fingers on top of one another is a very healthy habit. I do try to say each to his own but I have been teaching for 15 years so I do have a bit of experience to speak from.

[mr.sibs]

i asked my tutor about this recently and he said just to relax your body completely, so make sure from your right arm, to your shoulders there is no tension, and you are only exerting the pressure needed to create a good tone, and no more, which is surprisingly light. i also make sure i do my exercises standing up, so i am used to it when i come to play live or during practise

+1 on the other comments too

[P-T-P]

Could always use a pick which would allow you to mute with your right hand.

[wotnwhy]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='189469' date='May 1 2008, 09:19 AM']just for clarity, ring finger on top of little finger [i]does not[/i] represent double bass fingering, ring and little finger together on the string does. I would support the latter, and don't think placing fingers on top of one another is a very healthy habit. I do try to say each to his own but I have been teaching for 15 years so I do have a bit of experience to speak from.[/quote]


yes sorry, should have been clearer. i didn't mean literally ring finger [i]on top[/i] of pinky, just running behind (but slightly higher) for support. which is the way i was shown when i had 2 or 3 double bass lessons around 6/7 years ago.

[GM10]

[quote name='thinman' date='Apr 30 2008, 09:22 PM' post='189253']
Thanks chaps. I've probably been a bit too hung up on keeping a finger-to-a-fret for this.

On the subject of one finger per fret rule. I use my ring finger for about 5% of my fretwork. It's a small hand thing. Anybody do the the same or any opinions of making the ring finger mostly redundant?

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='wotnwhy' post='190822' date='May 2 2008, 07:56 PM']yes sorry, should have been clearer. i didn't mean literally ring finger [i]on top[/i] of pinky, just running behind (but slightly higher) for support. which is the way i was shown when i had 2 or 3 double bass lessons around 6/7 years ago. [/quote]
Ah I see!
Yes no probs with ring for support.


[quote name='Gloria stits' post='191039' date='May 3 2008, 07:28 AM']On the subject of one finger per fret rule. I use my ring finger for about 5% of my fretwork. It's a small hand thing. Anybody do the the same or any opinions of making the ring finger mostly redundant?[/quote]


I would think 5% is a bit low and will result in a weaker finger so if I were your teacher I would encourage you to use it a bit more just for strength, but when it comes to being able to reach a note I would suggest simply doing what is comfortable and work out your own ways to achieve the more difficult things.
Therefore its not a big worry.
Jake

Edited May 3, 2008 by jakesbass

[d-basser]

if you play thumb and index on your picking hand u can palm mute and avoid left hand muting, I would also recommend index pinky for fretting but mostly due to my midget hands

[Gwilym]

[quote name='thinman' post='189231' date='Apr 30 2008, 08:59 PM']Probably a bit basic but...

When playing disco-style root and octave, what's the best technique? We play Pulp's Disco 2000 and the bits in the verse where its just F and Bb root and octaves kills my left (fretting) hand.

The right hand seems OK - I've tried both index and middle pinky plus thumb and index without problem but I think the notes shouldn't ring so some left-hand damping is required. I do that by lifting-off slightly but that really knackers my little finger when repeating for any period. (I, probably wrongly, use my middle and little fingers for root and octave).

Should I keep the notes fretted and use a different damping technique?[/quote]

in addition to what everyone else just said, (but also not knowing how you wear your bass) you might want to try shortening the length of your strap (if it's slung low), as it could be a major contributor if you're getting pain in your left hand.
other than that, keep your hand relaxed and try to not exert too much pressure with your fingers. see how much you can ease off on your hand pressure whilst still getting a clear sound.

or get a five string bass and play it at the sixth fret

[XB26354]

I would respectfully say that double bass technique is not necessary on a normal scale electric bass unless you have very small hands.
One finger per fret gives you a lot more freedom and fits most lines as well as, if not better than double bass fingering.
Octaves are, however, more comfortable with index and pinky (some players I know prefer index and ring finger). Middle and pinky tenses up the middle of the hand, straightening out the pinky. Be careful that you are not locking out the knucke joints of the pinky as well as this will make your hand tire quickly.

Far from developing strength it would be more advisable to
a. use the least amount of pressure to fret a note with the left hand
b. be as relaxed as possible both with your hands and your body in general
c. not wear the bass too low or too high - too low is not as bad as having it up under your chin as this forces your arm and hand further away from your body, distorting the wrist joint.

The fact that you say it "kills" your hand is a sure sign that you are pressing too hard and/or tensing up.

Edited May 6, 2008 by XB26354

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='XB26354' post='192909' date='May 6 2008, 01:40 PM']I would respectfully say that double bass technique is not necessary on a normal scale electric bass unless you have very small hands.[/quote]

I quite agree and I only mentioned DB technique as an earlier poster had mentioned using a technique "like" DB which it was in fact not, I corrected and he agreed.
There are however parralels between using ring finger to support little finger in octave movement, and DB technique.
I personally use a combination of index and ring and 2nd and little, and I employ one finger per fret all over the instrument. I do have long, strong fingers though, ironically primarily because of my DB training.

Edited May 6, 2008 by jakesbass

[XB26354]

I think it is also worth mentioning that you do [i]not[/i] need strong hands to play the electric bass!
A well set-up bass, with a small amount of neck relief, requires you to push a metal string between about 1mm and 3mm down slightly behind a fret. Your plucking hand needs to pass the tip of a finger over the top of the string. A small child is "strong" enough to do this You also do not need stamina to play for a long time. You need to develop efficient technique, and most of all, relax. I've seen Gary Willis play several times, and he can play very fast, sustained passages. he has a very efficient technique so it looks like his fingers are hardly moving. At the same time he gets a deep, fat tone!
One Finger Per Fret is a general guide that is most useful for scales and arpeggios. There are always some awkward fingerings that don't "sit" nicely using OFPF, and require compression (Motown 3-fret lines a la James Jamerson) or expansion (playing a chromatic scale in one position).
With regard to strap height, too high is even worse than too low, as it pushes the headstock (and therefore lowest frets) as far away from your fretting hand as is possible. A lower strap (with the body of the bass around the waist) allows you to angle the neck up towards you. This also puts a comfortable bend in the fretting arm and straightens the fretting wrist (ironically bringing the playing position a little closer to double bass).

[thinman]

Thanks all - I'll try some of the suggestions.

It's not playing octaves that I have a problem with as such - it's the repetition of damping the octave by lifting off that is giving me problems so I may go back to trying thumb and index and muting with the side of my plucking hand.

[XB26354]

[quote name='thinman' post='193304' date='May 6 2008, 08:53 PM']Thanks all - I'll try some of the suggestions.

It's not playing octaves that I have a problem with as such - it's the repetition of damping the octave by lifting off that is giving me problems so I may go back to trying thumb and index and muting with the side of my plucking hand.[/quote]
Ah - have you tried playing with your fretting hand fingers right on top of the frets? It slightly damps notes and saves a bit of effort as you only have to make the smallest movement to stop the note...

[Gwilym]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='193026' date='May 6 2008, 04:10 PM']I quite agree and I only mentioned DB technique as an earlier poster had mentioned using a technique "like" DB which it was in fact not, I corrected and he agreed.
There are however parralels between using ring finger to support little finger in octave movement, and DB technique.
I personally use a combination of index and ring and 2nd and little, and I employ one finger per fret all over the instrument. I do have long, strong fingers though, ironically primarily because of my DB training.[/quote]

when I learned the DB, I was taught to use all 4 fingers (based on my teacher's studies with Gary Karr), rather than the standard (Simandl?) technique. the idea being, why waste the use of a finger?

in practice, on both BG and DB, I'll use all four fingers when the need arises, and adopt a more traditional double bass technique when i want to be physically more economical.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='Gwilym' post='196214' date='May 10 2008, 08:29 PM']when I learned the DB, I was taught to use all 4 fingers (based on my teacher's studies with Gary Karr), rather than the standard (Simandl?) technique. the idea being, why waste the use of a finger?

in practice, on both BG and DB, I'll use all four fingers when the need arises, and adopt a more traditional double bass technique when i want to be physically more economical.[/quote]

I think your post answers itself, very few people in the world have the kind of advanced approach that Gary Karr has, maybe thats why he's one of the worlds most respected soloists, neither would they have the quality of instrument (designed for him I believe). I'm certainly not opposed to aiming high where standards are concerned but the convention of using 1 2 4 is primarily a practical one based on the stop size at the nut end of the fingerboard and the relative strengths across the fingers, and indeed variations are available in the approach to thumb position I would happily use my third finger on an F or F# on the G string.
While I am interested to hear your experience I think for balance when considering the points that have been raised in this thread (which is about BG BTW) its worth hearing all the available information where technique is concerned as to simply state as you have that hundreds of years of convention can be thrown out on the say so of one of historys' greatest players leaves quite a gulf of possible understanding between that and the everyday concerns of regular bass players.

[Mottlefeeder]

[quote name='XB26354' post='193293' date='May 6 2008, 08:44 PM']...With regard to strap height, too high is even worse than too low, as it pushes the headstock (and therefore lowest frets) as far away from your fretting hand as is possible. A lower strap (with the body of the bass around the waist) allows you to angle the neck up towards you. This also puts a comfortable bend in the fretting arm and straightens the fretting wrist (ironically bringing the playing position a little closer to double bass).[/quote]
Whilst I agree that you can pull the neck towards you if the body is lower, I have great difficulty in playing that way. I got rid of a bass because it was neck heavy, and I was not comfortable with that.

YMMV, but it is a point worth considering.

[XB26354]

[quote name='Mottlefeeder' post='196244' date='May 10 2008, 10:06 PM']Whilst I agree that you can pull the neck towards you if the body is lower, I have great difficulty in playing that way. I got rid of a bass because it was neck heavy, and I was not comfortable with that.

YMMV, but it is a point worth considering.[/quote]
The way I see it is to put your arms into the most comfortable position without the bass (as if you're playing), then that's where the bass goes.
When I say "lower" I mean no lower than waist/hip level. The neck will then sit at roughly 45-degrees (depending on the shape of your body and of the bass). In this position arms, shoulders and hands are relaxed, both wrists will be pretty much straight and you have the optimum reach to the low frets without the high frets moving too far away. It kind of resembles classical guitar posture, but standing up. Just look at old videos of Mark King or Norman Watt-Roy to see how uncomfortable and tense their playing position looks (especially when playing fingerstyle with the very bent right wrist). High strap position will equal pain at some point.

The fact that you had a neck heavy bass is a separate issue. A neck heavy bass will be uncomfortable in any playing position. I too have got rid of more than one bass because the headstock was too keen on visiting the floor