mcnach Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 [quote name='wishface' timestamp='1347033551' post='1796298'] Bit late for that. Anyway, i'm not going to adjust it anymore. The neck is fairly straight and the action is low enough that before changing strings it would be counter productive to continue. I can't lower the strings much more anyway as doing so induces some very slight fretbuzz around the 12th fret on the D and the A. [/quote] ok, I promise then not to mention adding shims to the neck pocket to alter the angle slightly (but -if needed- it can help greatly to achieve a smooth low action... if needed!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Undead Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 [quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1347036978' post='1796346'] ok, I promise then not to mention adding shims to the neck pocket to alter the angle slightly (but -if needed- it can help greatly to achieve a smooth low action... if needed!) [/quote] +1 to that - I have a shim in the neck pocket of my bass. But a shim will only help if everything else has been adjusted correctly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 [quote name='wishface' timestamp='1347033131' post='1796289'] 1.about 3mm 2. I didn't take the strings off to get to the pickup i loosened them. the strings slip when i put them on the first place. It takes a while to get them to stay in tune. Most of the strings go around a couple of times. 3. the saddles vary in height, not by much, but the highest is about a mm up. They don't have an angle as they are round shaped. 4. nothing, though i knew roughly about intonation before. the only problem is moving the saddles without using my fingers. [/quote] cheers. If that is 3mm from the top of the fret to the bottom of the string we've identified probably the main problem. Your neck has too much relief on it- which isn't that unusual. So this bent neck is making the action seem high, you've compensated for this by lowering the bridge which makes the whole thing not work quite as well as it could. So how to solve it.... well one thing at a time. (I'm going to presume the strings are ok.) If you do a number of things, and correctly in the right order then you'll sort it out- but don't expect it to work perfectly first time first lets get that neck straighter. To do this we need to tighten the truss rod. The "give it half a turn" advice is only half helpful. What you are aiming for is about 1mm. First things first some rules.... (1) if it doesn't move - don't force it. (2) don't turn it without taking the tension off it first. The strings are one spring pulling one way, and the truss rod is pulling the other. So when you tighten it do it in half turns and leave it for a bit. As you turn it, take the strain off it, either by slackening all the strings (you'll have to tighten them again though) or by my preferred method, by holding the bass body with your knees and pulling the headstock backward yourself and then tightening it. (does that make sense) Once that's down to 1mm or so we can do the rest. The saddles will probably need raising up from where they are now later. Oh and using your fingers to move the saddles is fine and dandy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mushers Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 luke just made what sometimes sounds complex into possibly the beginings of one of the best step by step set ups guides ive seen now wheres that Kudos button ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wishface Posted September 7, 2012 Author Share Posted September 7, 2012 [quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1347034793' post='1796321'] that seems a lot to me... is this between bottom of the string to fingerboard, or bottom of the string to top of 12th fret?[/quote] string to fingerboard. Measured with a ruler. I don't have a specific measuring tool. [quote]it would be very useful if you could post a clear picture how you put the strings, how they are wound around the post.[/quote] They are wound so that the string is on the inside lessening the amount it has to bend from the nut to the peg. I don't have the camera to hand right now. [quote]When I do it, the tuning is stable from the start, and I rarely go more than 1-2 turns. Right now, in fact, I have one bass where one string does not even have a full turn! (I cut it too short by mistake)... it works just fine. If you put the string through the hole, all the way down into the post, then a sharp turn out, and sharp again to wind around the post... those kinks will hold the string tightly... add a couple of turns and that thing wil not slip.[/quote] Yes that's what I usually do. [quote]I tend to move them with my fingers, or pushing with a screw driver. It's normal. If you loosen the strings a bit, then turn the screw as required to make the saddle moe forward or backward... push with your finger if you have to to make the sadde sit in the new location, retighten string and measure tuning... repeat as needed.[/quote]the point about using fingers is that it's not terribly precise and we are dealing in small increments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 [quote name='wishface' timestamp='1347048311' post='1796522'] string to fingerboard. Measured with a ruler. I don't have a specific measuring tool. They are wound so that the string is on the inside lessening the amount it has to bend from the nut to the peg. I don't have the camera to hand right now. Yes that's what I usually do. the point about using fingers is that it's not terribly precise and we are dealing in small increments. [/quote] ok, 3mm from bottom of string to top of fingerboard is not crazy. Usually we'd talk about the distance between the bottom of the string to the top of the fret, 'though, as that's the distance that matters. string-winding... if we do it the same way then I don't understand why the slip or the tuning takes a while to stabilise. I'm afraid that without pictures I could not say anything more. the thing about the fingers not being precise. You don't select a distace with the fingers, but through turning the screw. Then you just push the saddle by hand to sit in the new position. Let's see if I can explain it better. Imagine you want to move the saddle farther from the neck. Then you turn the screw clockwise, so it threads into the saddle, and the saddle moves away from the neck. No handling necessary. But what if you want to move it towards the neck? Then you turn the screw anticlockwise. What often happens is that the screw starts to come out while the saddle barely moves, or doesn't move at all. In that case you push the screw back in place, and the saddle moves with it. so, if I check my intonation and I find I'm very much out and need to move the saddle towards the neck, I would do a couple of turns perhaps, push the screw back in place, and check. Ok, so I'm still out, getting closer, but still out... so maybe now I just do half a turn. Then push teh screw again, etc. The amount of movement in the saddle is ruled by how much you turned the screw, not by your fingers. All your fingers do is ensure the screw is back in place. So nothing imprecise about it. It all depends on how much or how little you turn that screw, nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Undead Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 [quote name='wishface' timestamp='1347048311' post='1796522'] string to fingerboard. Measured with a ruler. I don't have a specific measuring tool. [/quote] What's the measurement from the bottom of the string to the top of the 12th fret when the bass is fretted at both the 1st and last fret simultaneously? [quote name='wishface' timestamp='1347048311' post='1796522'] They are wound so that the string is on the inside lessening the amount it has to bend from the nut to the peg. I don't have the camera to hand right now. [/quote] That sounds right, but I think he means is it wound from the top of the peg going down, so that the string bends as much as possible over the nut? ( this is called the break angle) [quote name='wishface' timestamp='1347048311' post='1796522'] the point about using fingers is that it's not terribly precise and we are dealing in small increments. [/quote] Using fingers wouldn't be terribly precise on their own, but don't forget you have the screws to guide you. Loosen or tighten the saddle screws by a small amount, and then use your fingers to push the saddle - it will only go as far as the screw allows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 [quote name='Evil Undead' timestamp='1347049204' post='1796537'] Using fingers wouldn't be terribly precise on their own, but don't forget you have the screws to guide you. Loosen or tighten the saddle screws by a small amount, and then use your fingers to push the saddle - it will only go as far as the screw allows. [/quote] you said in two lines what I used a whole paragraph for... and you are still clearer than I was. to the OP: what she said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Undead Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 Ok. I've gone to some effort here, so if you turn round and tell me again that I'm not being helpful, I'll have to come down there and give you a slap, Mr! Ok, so I've taken some photos of my bass just to give you a rough idea of what I'm on about. This is in no way meant to be patronising or anything like that. This is the break angle I was talking about. The angle of the strings as they cross over the nut. You can see that mine has a slight angle, not too much but just enough to give it a little extra tension and stop excessive fret buzz. [IMG]http://i1032.photobucket.com/albums/a407/ImaginaryEvil/Snapbucket/1020B5D4.jpg[/IMG] And this is the string winding, which is what affects the break angle the most (plus the angle of the headstock of course). I don't like too many windings but mine go from top to bottom. [IMG]http://i1032.photobucket.com/albums/a407/ImaginaryEvil/Snapbucket/3C6E25AB.jpg[/IMG] This is the relief in my neck. It's set at 0.3mm from the top of the 12th fret to the bottom of the E string when I'm fretting the 1st fret and the last fret. This (plus a combination of all of the other aspects of the setup) allows me to get super low action, from 1mm on the G to 1.6mm on the E. This means that my bass is very playable, even though it's a P neck (pretty wide) and I've got stupid small girl hands. [IMG]http://i1032.photobucket.com/albums/a407/ImaginaryEvil/Snapbucket/A581E8B5.jpg[/IMG] This is how my saddles are set for my intonation. It's gonna be different on every bass, but probably wouldn't be massively far off this on most 34" scale 4 string basses. My intonation is as perfect as it could get on a fretted bass. [IMG]http://i1032.photobucket.com/albums/a407/ImaginaryEvil/Snapbucket/E9967C3F.jpg[/IMG] And lastly, this is how I've got my pickup set. Higher in the middle for the A and D strings, and lower on the E and G (lowest on the E, that seems to be the loudest with the strings I'm using). With yours being a humbucker you won't be able to have that pyramid thing going on but it's just to give you an idea. Excuse the dust in the photo, I'm not much of a polisher. [IMG]http://i1032.photobucket.com/albums/a407/ImaginaryEvil/Snapbucket/9FB12080.jpg[/IMG] Hope this helps a bit at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 [quote name='mushers' timestamp='1347040063' post='1796389'] luke just made what sometimes sounds complex into possibly the beginings of one of the best step by step set ups guides ive seen now wheres that Kudos button ! [/quote] aww thanks When I started playing I borrowed a bass that had been used in a school tech project. I had to learn how to dismantle and set up a bass before I could ever play it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wishface Posted September 8, 2012 Author Share Posted September 8, 2012 [quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1347049154' post='1796535'] Imagine you want to move the saddle farther from the neck. Then you turn the screw clockwise, so it threads into the saddle, and the saddle moves away from the neck. No handling necessary. [/quote] It doesn't though, that's what I'm saying. When I wanted to move teh saddle turning the screw just wound it through the saddle and out the back of the bridge. I had to then push the saddle with my fingers to get it to move back toward the bridge. Turning the screw just had it move and not the saddle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wishface Posted September 8, 2012 Author Share Posted September 8, 2012 [quote name='Evil Undead' timestamp='1347050635' post='1796580'] Hope this helps a bit at least. [/quote] Thanks. I was under the impression that the break angle off the nut has to be as little as possible and that each successive string wind goes under the last so the string comes off the neck with as little bend or angle as possible into the tuning peg. the gapp between the 12th fret and the E, with the 1st and 24th fretted is about 1mm at most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 [quote name='wishface' timestamp='1347089783' post='1796788'] It doesn't though, that's what I'm saying. When I wanted to move teh saddle turning the screw just wound it through the saddle and out the back of the bridge. I had to then push the saddle with my fingers to get it to move back toward the bridge. Turning the screw just had it move and not the saddle. [/quote] Look it's *impossible* for the screw to thread into the saddle without it moving back, away from the neck So if it does that, it means the screw was not flush against the bridge stop to start with. It's not that common but it can happen than as you change the strings a saddle is pushed back a little and the attached screw may protrude just a bit, but enough to cause the effect you describe. However, that's not the normal operation of this very simple system. Make sure the four screws that thread through the saddles, front to back, one per saddle, are all flush against the bridge stop. If it's resting against the bridge stop, as it should and as shown in 'evildead's images, as you turn the screw clockwise, the screw cannot go anywhere, and the saddle is moved away from the bridge as the screw threads into it. This can be quite hard to do unless you relieve some tension first by detuning that string a little first. When you turn it anticlockwise, however, the head of the screw may move away from the bridge stop, as the saddle may offer some resistance. That's why in this case you push the screw so that it again rests against the bridge stop, moving the saddle with it in the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clauster Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 [quote name='wishface' timestamp='1346830004' post='1793638'] [attachment=117530:headstock.jpg][attachment=117531:bass body.jpg][attachment=117532:bridge.jpg] Here is the best i can manage with a ropey old webcam I borrowed. Anyone that can identify the instrument from this deserves a medal. [/quote] Winding the strings on properly could help!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 [quote name='wishface' timestamp='1347092826' post='1796828'] Thanks. I was under the impression that the break angle off the nut has to be as little as possible and that each successive string wind goes under the last so the string comes off the neck with as little bend or angle as possible into the tuning peg. the gapp between the 12th fret and the E, with the 1st and 24th fretted is about 1mm at most. [/quote] The angle in an horizontal plane will normally be small. It's non-existent on Fender type headstocks (4-in-line style). The angle in the vertical plane will be smaller (sharper) the lower a string is when it exits the tuning post towards the nut. If it approaches the nut with no angle, in a straight line, the string may rattle in the nut slot. Not nice. If the string comes from below, a sharper bend ensures the string is held against the slot and will not rattle. This is the reason why string trees/retainers are used on Fender style headstocks for the D/G strings, as it becomes harder to have a good angle when the tuning posts are away from the nut. Your measurements for the relief look good, by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wishface Posted September 8, 2012 Author Share Posted September 8, 2012 [quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1347094304' post='1796842'] Look it's *impossible* for the screw to thread into the saddle without it moving back, away from the neck So if it does that, it means the screw was not flush against the bridge stop to start with. It's not that common but it can happen than as you change the strings a saddle is pushed back a little and the attached screw may protrude just a bit, but enough to cause the effect you describe. However, that's not the normal operation of this very simple system. Make sure the four screws that thread through the saddles, front to back, one per saddle, are all flush against the bridge stop. If it's resting against the bridge stop, as it should and as shown in 'evildead's images, as you turn the screw clockwise, the screw cannot go anywhere, and the saddle is moved away from the bridge as the screw threads into it. This can be quite hard to do unless you relieve some tension first by detuning that string a little first. When you turn it anticlockwise, however, the head of the screw may move away from the bridge stop, as the saddle may offer some resistance. That's why in this case you push the screw so that it again rests against the bridge stop, moving the saddle with it in the process. [/quote]The screws were tight against the bridge to begin with. They were screwed in as far as they could go. Presumably that's intentional so that the screws don't jut out the back of the bridge. In order to move the saddle away from the bridge I had to unscrew those screws. That didn't move the saddle at all, it just moved the screw. So i had to push the saddle back with my finger and then, holding it in place, re tighten the screw so that it was against the bridge again. That way it can't slip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wishface Posted September 8, 2012 Author Share Posted September 8, 2012 [quote name='clauster' timestamp='1347094317' post='1796843'] Winding the strings on properly could help!! [/quote]every instruction or guide to stringing the bass has a completely different approach. The E and the A, which are the only strings that look rough (i took them off to clean the bass and boiled them and just put them back on, the problems with the E existed before that), never slipped. The G and D are wound correctly as far as i can tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 (edited) [quote name='wishface' timestamp='1347108049' post='1797012'] The screws were tight against the bridge to begin with. They were screwed in as far as they could go. Presumably that's intentional so that the screws don't jut out the back of the bridge. In order to move the saddle away from the bridge I had to unscrew those screws. That didn't move the saddle at all, it just moved the screw. So i had to push the saddle back with my finger and then, holding it in place, re tighten the screw so that it was against the bridge again. That way it can't slip. [/quote] and that's exactly what I said. in that direction (away from bridge = towards the neck) you often have to push the saddle (or the screw, rather) with your finger. In the opposite direction you don't (there's nowhere the screw could go). The screw head acts as a stop against the bridge stop. The screws do NOT thread through the bridge stop at all. They only thread through the saddles. The hole through wich the screws pass, at the bridge stop, are slightly larger than the screw's diameter, and smaller than the screw head. It's a rather simple mechanism. Look at it. I really don't get what the misunderstanding here is Edited September 8, 2012 by mcnach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 [quote name='wishface' timestamp='1347108187' post='1797015'] every instruction or guide to stringing the bass has a completely different approach. The E and the A, which are the only strings that look rough (i took them off to clean the bass and boiled them and just put them back on, the problems with the E existed before that), never slipped. The G and D are wound correctly as far as i can tell. [/quote] There are only small variations to the same idea. Stringing a guitar serves one basic function and there really isn't that much to it. If a string slips, it is not anchored properly, or if it is, then it is wound in such a way that the turns are not tight and/or leave uneven tension... so that the string slowly readjusts itself resulting in some loss of tension until it's at rest. There are a couple of other minor details to ensure tuning is stable from the very minute you string them, but I don't want to confuse matters now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 [quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1347112588' post='1797086']If a string slips, it is not anchored properly...[/quote] Or the tuning peg/machine head mechanism itself is slipping. Is this a possibility here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrenochrome Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 wishface is tBBC in disguise and I claim my free T-shirt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lfalex v1.1 Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 [quote name='Adrenochrome' timestamp='1347116455' post='1797143'] wishface is tBBC in disguise and I claim my free T-shirt! [/quote] Surprised that TIM hasn't reared his ugly head yet... Oh! He just did.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 [quote name='wishface' timestamp='1347092826' post='1796828'] Thanks. I was under the impression that the break angle off the nut has to be as little as possible and that each successive string wind goes under the last so the string comes off the neck with as little bend or angle as possible into the tuning peg. the gapp between the 12th fret and the E, with the 1st and 24th fretted is about 1mm at most. [/quote] nah, it's the other way, a bigger angle at headstock and bridge is better. you want as much winding down as possible. so as you wind it on wind it down- as Mcnach says it stops ratteling and also helps with the string tension. Try winding the E string with the wrappings going down- my guess is it will sort out your flappy E string a fair bit. To set the intonation.... when the strings are at tension they push down on the saddles - thats why they don't move easily. I always find loosening the string makes it easier to move without toomuch force when setting the tension. I would recomend loosening the tension, moving the saddle then tuning up, repeating till it's spot on. If you look online you can get a computer based tuner for free somewhere to help you set it correctly. Don't forget everytime you move the saddle you'll have to retune the string! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 I'm surprised that no one has yet pointed out that the nuts on Spectors (cheapest to the most expensive) just are loose and fall out when the strings aren't there to hold them in. I've had four Spectors and they all had loose nuts. It's not an issue. It's just the way they are. Cracking thread. Definitely in my top 5 for 2012. It's even got me posting again! I'm still waiting to find out what town/village the OP is in as it's probably on a very good motorcycle route and I could stop off and sort this instrument for no more than a cup of tea in return. I love setting up basses, all mine play like low fat spread (they used to play like butter but the doctor told me to watch my cholesterol). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumble Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 >they used to play like butter but the doctor told me to watch my cholesterol Stuff the doctors, playing like butter is far more tasty and playing like low fat spread only extends your life by an extra 3 mins during which time you crave butter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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