P-T-P Posted May 2, 2008 Share Posted May 2, 2008 A few years back I was having a conversation with a drummer friend of mine who is annoyingly good for his age, but whose chops have come primarily through formal education and loads of theoretical practice. As good a drummer as he can be, some of the more intangible aspects of performing (in contrast to simply playing) can get him wound up. During this conversation one of these aspects came up and it has bugged me ever since to know whether I was off the mark or talking sense and, if I was making sense, is it a bass player thing that other's just don't get or rather something he just couldn't get. What caused it all was that I said I can listen to a click track playing four beats to the bar or even a simple drum part - eg kick on 1&3, snare 2&4, ride bell on each beat - and play along, quarter notes, and hear/feel the groove swing. He was utterly baffled by this. Am I mad? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzz Posted May 2, 2008 Share Posted May 2, 2008 You got legible speech out of a drummer? I suppose it's about hearing the strong beat and the pulse of the music, I suspect due to the fact drumming is a core foundation for rhythm alongside his tutorage means he's not aware of it and works at a technical level. Or I could be talking utter rollocks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted May 2, 2008 Share Posted May 2, 2008 I don't get what you're saying, sorry. I'm sure you do though. A drummer might wonder how you can hear a swing feel when a click or drum machine is programmed with a straight feel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey D Posted May 2, 2008 Share Posted May 2, 2008 [quote name='P-T-P' post='190524' date='May 2 2008, 02:00 PM']A few years back I was having a conversation with a drummer friend of mine who is annoyingly good for his age, but whose chops have come primarily through formal education and loads of theoretical practice. As good a drummer as he can be, some of the more intangible aspects of performing (in contrast to simply playing) can get him wound up. During this conversation one of these aspects came up and it has bugged me ever since to know whether I was off the mark or talking sense and, if I was making sense, is it a bass player thing that other's just don't get or rather something he just couldn't get. What caused it all was that I said I can listen to a click track playing four beats to the bar or even a simple drum part - eg kick on 1&3, snare 2&4, ride bell on each beat - and play along, quarter notes, and hear/feel the groove swing. He was utterly baffled by this. Am I mad?[/quote] It's a fair comment that you can feel the swing in that pattern, but If that is how I was to practice swing, I would go mad. Maybe he was wondering (as I am) that you wouldn't typically play jazz with that feel, so why would you practice it with that feel!? The emphasis is on 2 and 4, thus it is better to practice with the metronome/drum machine sound/whatever on those beats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted May 2, 2008 Share Posted May 2, 2008 If I put a metronome on a back beat and play walking bass with it, it sounds like it's (the metronome) swinging, so I know exactly what you're talking about. No you are not mad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey D Posted May 2, 2008 Share Posted May 2, 2008 [quote name='jakesbass' post='190765' date='May 2 2008, 06:09 PM']If I put a metronome on a back beat and play walking bass with it, it sounds like it's (the metronome) swinging, so I know exactly what you're talking about. No you are not mad.[/quote] Exactly, but i think the point is having what is seen as basically a simple rock groove in 4 on the drum machine, while walking along. I know any of my tutors would have words of advice for me if that is how I practiced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted May 2, 2008 Share Posted May 2, 2008 [quote name='Mikey D' post='190770' date='May 2 2008, 06:13 PM']Exactly, but i think the point is having what is seen as basically a simple rock groove in 4 on the drum machine, while walking along. I know any of my tutors would have words of advice for me if that is how I practiced.[/quote] ah yes Mikey, didn't read the op thoroughly. Cheers Jake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick Posted May 2, 2008 Share Posted May 2, 2008 Would love to, but unfortunately can't pursuade the wife Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Tub Posted May 2, 2008 Share Posted May 2, 2008 The way you describe your drummer friend makes him sound like more of a technician, rather than a musician. He has no concept, no imagination, of what might be played over his beat. He has no idea of groove. It's not part of his toolbox. If this is the case, then no, he won't hear/feel a "groove". We, on the other hand, are the next step up from drums (that sounds terrible, but I hope you know what I mean). We listen to a beat, and THEN we can feel the groove because we can imagine and feel what would work on top of it, and THEN we play something over it. I think most bass players, at any level, are more musician than technician, and that is I think what makes the critical difference here. Someone who knows what they're talking about will be along shortly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverfoxnik Posted May 2, 2008 Share Posted May 2, 2008 [quote name='nick' post='190789' date='May 2 2008, 06:58 PM']Would love to, but unfortunately can't pursuade the wife [/quote] I'm totally with you on this one Pete - i kind of do the same when sitting in the car and the indicators are flashing... Machines are there to be 'metronomic' and humans are there to put in the feel and the swing.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-T-P Posted May 3, 2008 Author Share Posted May 3, 2008 [quote name='Mikey D' post='190761' date='May 2 2008, 06:08 PM']It's a fair comment that you can feel the swing in that pattern, but If that is how I was to practice swing, I would go mad. Maybe he was wondering (as I am) that you wouldn't typically play jazz with that feel, so why would you practice it with that feel!? The emphasis is on 2 and 4, thus it is better to practice with the metronome/drum machine sound/whatever on those beats.[/quote] [quote name='Mikey D' post='190770' date='May 2 2008, 06:13 PM']Exactly, but i think the point is having what is seen as basically a simple rock groove in 4 on the drum machine, while walking along. I know any of my tutors would have words of advice for me if that is how I practiced.[/quote] [quote name='jakesbass' post='190772' date='May 2 2008, 06:14 PM']ah yes Mikey, didn't read the op thoroughly. Cheers Jake[/quote] The point wasn't to say that I would practise swing to that beat at all and I don't believe I said that anywhere! Perhaps I didn't express myself very well. All I said was that I could play it that way. My actual point though was more that a rhythm that is simple, straight (using that term in it's loosest sense) and little more than metronomic only serves as the foundation for what you hear/feel/play. For a very simple example. I could take that beat and play the bass part from Spirit in the Sky and still get the bouncy feel of the original. My drummer friend didn't accept that you can achieve that feel without having all the other rhythmic parts in place. I accept that you aren't going to duplicate the overall feel precisely without duplicating all the contributing parts precisely, but his contention was more that, without them, it's just a beat and someone playing one note per beat on top of it. Have to say Mikey, your response was borderline close to the kind of response that my drummer friend would come up with. Looking a bit to much at the technicalities of it and missing the actual, far more conceptual, point. [quote name='Astronomer' post='190865' date='May 2 2008, 09:15 PM']The way you describe your drummer friend makes him sound like more of a technician, rather than a musician. He has no concept, no imagination, of what might be played over his beat. He has no idea of groove. It's not part of his toolbox. If this is the case, then no, he won't hear/feel a "groove". We, on the other hand, are the next step up from drums (that sounds terrible, but I hope you know what I mean). We listen to a beat, and THEN we can feel the groove because we can imagine and feel what would work on top of it, and THEN we play something over it. I think most bass players, at any level, are more musician than technician, and that is I think what makes the critical difference here. Someone who knows what they're talking about will be along shortly. [/quote] In fairness to him, he does groove well, but he's arrived at where he's at from an almost wholly academic route so his ability to groove comes from deconstruction rather than absorbtion. Give him something to play along with and he picks up the groove great. Try to explain the feel of a song to him, not so great. Tell him he's not getting paid unless he's learned the song properly and he'll come back with charts galore and pretty much nail it exactly like the record first time you play it. [quote name='silverfoxnik' post='190922' date='May 2 2008, 10:52 PM']I'm totally with you on this one Pete - i kind of do the same when sitting in the car and the indicators are flashing... Machines are there to be 'metronomic' and humans are there to put in the feel and the swing.. [/quote] Yes, this is mroe where I'm coming from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 [quote name='P-T-P' post='191029' date='May 3 2008, 03:08 AM']My actual point though was more that a rhythm that is simple, straight (using that term in it's loosest sense) and little more than metronomic only serves as the foundation for what you hear/feel/play.[/quote] Still not really getting what you're asking. Maybe it's too abstract and philosophical a question for me? All I know is that I sound good playing with a good drummer and crap playing with a crap drummer. I'm sure that doesn't answer your question though. Were you saying something like "there's a difference between 'beat', 'rhythm' and 'feel' and as bassists we can inject any feel we like into a simple beat"? I'm not sure I agree with that. Having played with some drummers who don't understand pushes or swing-funk, I find it impossible to inject any bounce into what they play. If they've got bad feel, I won't play with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey D Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 [quote name='P-T-P' post='191029' date='May 3 2008, 03:08 AM']The point wasn't to say that I would practise swing to that beat at all and I don't believe I said that anywhere! Perhaps I didn't express myself very well. All I said was that I could play it that way. My actual point though was more that a rhythm that is simple, straight (using that term in it's loosest sense) and little more than metronomic only serves as the foundation for what you hear/feel/play. For a very simple example. I could take that beat and play the bass part from Spirit in the Sky and still get the bouncy feel of the original. My drummer friend didn't accept that you can achieve that feel without having all the other rhythmic parts in place. I accept that you aren't going to duplicate the overall feel precisely without duplicating all the contributing parts precisely, but his contention was more that, without them, it's just a beat and someone playing one note per beat on top of it. Have to say Mikey, your response was borderline close to the kind of response that my drummer friend would come up with. Looking a bit to much at the technicalities of it and missing the actual, far more conceptual, point.[/quote] Must be a misunderstanding then, because going by the title and the post "What caused it all was that I said I can listen to a click track playing four beats to the bar or even a simple drum part - eg kick on 1&3, snare 2&4, ride bell on each beat - and play along, quarter notes, and hear/feel the groove swing." etc I thought you were talking swing. Had you said something along the lines of your 2nd and 3rd sentence in this post, I don't think there would have been any argument/misunderstanding from me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chardbass Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 [quote name='P-T-P' post='190524' date='May 2 2008, 02:00 PM']A few years back I was having a conversation with a drummer friend of mine who is annoyingly good for his age, but whose chops have come primarily through formal education and loads of theoretical practice. As good a drummer as he can be, some of the more intangible aspects of performing (in contrast to simply playing) can get him wound up. During this conversation one of these aspects came up and it has bugged me ever since to know whether I was off the mark or talking sense and, if I was making sense, is it a bass player thing that other's just don't get or rather something he just couldn't get. What caused it all was that I said I can listen to a click track playing four beats to the bar or even a simple drum part - eg kick on 1&3, snare 2&4, ride bell on each beat - and play along, quarter notes, and hear/feel the groove swing. He was utterly baffled by this. Am I mad?[/quote] Not mad at all- it's a case of feeling the (quaver) triplet, but unless you bring out the odd swung quaver in the line it would sound like a straight feel. I would find it hard to not suggest the swing with the odd skip or dead note- a bit like not chewing a Fruit Pastille or licking your lips when eating a doughnut (think I need to eat) If I understand what you are saying then the same drummer would have a problem playing a 12/8 feel when given a count of 4 as opposed to "1-and-a-2-and-a-3-and-a-4-and-a" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutToPlayJazz Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 Swing turns each pair of quavers into a "tripletised" crotchet & quaver. In short it works like a lazy dotted pattern. From the tone of Pete's original post, he's also getting at what Mr.Wooten calls "grooving" with the drummer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 [quote name='chardbass' post='192165' date='May 5 2008, 12:12 PM']Not mad at all- it's a case of feeling the (quaver) triplet, but unless you bring out the odd swung quaver in the line it would sound like a straight feel.[/quote] Have to say I disagree, in fact with any metronomic pulse I can play minims (2 feel) and make the metronome sound like it's swinging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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