MacDaddy Posted September 15, 2012 Share Posted September 15, 2012 So it's illegal to copy music, copyright infringement applies to instruments, but it's okay to copy an amp sound - say which amp it's meant to sound like - then sell it? Confused? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blademan_98 Posted September 15, 2012 Share Posted September 15, 2012 If the sound is specifically copyrighted then you can't. Most are not. I believe Harley Davidson successfully copyrighted it's engine sound. Go figure lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted September 15, 2012 Share Posted September 15, 2012 I think we'd need an IP lawyer to give some definitive answers but I reckon there woul dbe all sorts of problems with trying to protect a sound. How, for example, could the sound be quantified in the first place? Audio spectrum analysis might be useful in this respect but at which point would very subtle (and probably inaudible) differences be deemed to be the same sound or a new sound? Frankly, I doubt that any two amps actually 'sound' completely identical anyway when measured with scientific precision. Component tolerances alone would make some differences and there would be other factors as well. Besides, with all the tone-shaping controls on the average amp these days, who could define what THE amp sound really is anyway? And none of that even takes into account how someone actually plays in the first place, which will have a huge impact on the overall sound. As for Harley Davidson, it seems that they TRIED to copyright their engine sound but gave up = probably because of the sorts of difficulties I've already described. A field day for the lawyers, no doubt, but no joy for HD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spinynorman Posted September 15, 2012 Share Posted September 15, 2012 Dificult to be definite without knowing which simulations you're talking about, but if they're using a registered or trade marked name, they must have a licence from the owner, or some kind of joint development and marketing agreement, which has the same effect. For example http://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/ampegsvx/ "Way back in 2004, companies thought that digital modeling of their gear was a threat to their business, that it would "steal the soul" of what they were doing. Ampeg was different. They understood what we were doing, and how our technologies could help them spread the love and groove of Ampeg. And it worked." If you download Amplitube 3 Free, you just get a set of generic amp models, which for bass is pretty much just "Bass Amp". The Ampeg module costs 80 Euros. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andydye Posted September 15, 2012 Share Posted September 15, 2012 Maybe someone should do some bass tone sims too, obviously not ricken#@$&er though cos that would be naughty! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted September 15, 2012 Share Posted September 15, 2012 The tech21 stuff avoids directly saying what they are modelling for the most part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted September 15, 2012 Share Posted September 15, 2012 So does the Line 6 Pod... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted September 15, 2012 Share Posted September 15, 2012 I'd guesss that is more due to trademarked names than the sound though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted September 15, 2012 Share Posted September 15, 2012 how can you trademark a sound? You can patent the circuit that makes that sound if it's special enough - but a specfic tone? sure I can deconstruct that and remake it digitally to make a look-a-like, cos it's not the real thing- it's a digital copy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
budget bassist Posted September 15, 2012 Share Posted September 15, 2012 (edited) If they're named after a particular brand or model of amp, they'll be paying a certain amount to that brand I would imagine. I know several manufacturers are working together on amp sim software like Amplitube. Why would they not? It's another market. Edited September 15, 2012 by budget bassist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lfalex v1.1 Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 [quote name='andydye' timestamp='1347727796' post='1804409'] Maybe someone should do some bass tone sims too, obviously not ricken#@$&er though cos that would be naughty! [/quote] Like the Variax did? Wasn't entirely successful, though, but does have its fans... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cairobill Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 Didn't Variax use euphemisms to avoid legal action? I hate DSP bass/amp and effect cloning. It sounds awful in my opinion. There's an aural 'glisten' to the sound that is analogous to the visual shine you still get on cgi/vfx to my ears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacDaddy Posted September 16, 2012 Author Share Posted September 16, 2012 [quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1347739154' post='1804568'] how can you trademark a sound? You can patent the circuit that makes that sound if it's special enough - but a specfic tone? sure I can deconstruct that and remake it digitally to make a look-a-like, cos it's not the real thing- it's a digital copy. [/quote] but if I make a digital copy of my vinyl albums then sell them, that's illegal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_5 Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 [quote name='MacDaddy' timestamp='1347804599' post='1805182'] but if I make a digital copy of my vinyl albums then sell them, that's illegal. [/quote] You'd also be wrong in the head - don't mess with vinyl! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1347731959' post='1804459'] The tech21 stuff avoids directly saying what they are modelling for the most part. [/quote] For some reason Zoom seems happy to name makes and models directly, or at least they do on my H4N. I wonder if they're a bit further out of the reach of US trademark laws, being a Japanese company? I find the Line-6 cryptic naming thing irritating when I'm trying to figure out which model does what in a rehearsal room, though I'm sure anyone who owns one will take the time to figure it out a bit more thoroughly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dincz Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1347723285' post='1804369'] As for Harley Davidson, it seems that they TRIED to copyright their engine sound but gave up = probably because of the sorts of difficulties I've already described[/quote] Complicated I'm sure by a prior claim by Massey-Ferguson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 [quote name='MacDaddy' timestamp='1347804599' post='1805182'] but if I make a digital copy of my vinyl albums then sell them, that's illegal. [/quote] Yes. But if you made a bit of machinery/softwear that made my MP3's look sound like your vinyl records and then sold it- that's not illegal. In the same way instagram can model old film cameras. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 (edited) [quote name='dincz' timestamp='1347805687' post='1805195'] Complicated I'm sure by a prior claim by Massey-Ferguson [/quote] Really? I've got an old MF135 tractor but I didn't know the engine noise was protected. Good excuse for this (although not a MF tractor): [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDHzK3Xe7Yw[/media] Edited September 16, 2012 by flyfisher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr M Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 I've always thought it's much the same as all the Precision, Jazz, etc. copies out there - both cheap and really, really, not. You're talking about something that is designed to look, feel and sound the same as a very famous piece of kit, but it caters for a different market. I think most manufacturer treat it with a bit of a 'sincerest form of flattery' attitude - provided you're not trying to pass it off as one of their actual products. (of course, there are some exceptions - Ricken[size=4][font="helvetica, arial, sans-serif"][color="#282828"]@#£$er in particular.)[/color][/font][/size] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]To be honest, with amp models particularly, I can't be the only one who finds one I really like, and thinks 'some day, when money rains from the sky into my pockets, I'm gonna buy a [i]real[/i] one of these'.[/font][/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vsmith1 Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 (edited) If this is any like the world of fonts then the name of the font is the protected thing - hence Helvetica [i]is[/i] trade marked, but the shape is not. Hence back in the ancient days of computer fonts there was a font called Swiss - which coincidently was rather like Helvetica. This is also why there was Times Roman and Times New Roman, again a name variance. I would assume that something similar is happening in the world of amp modelling. I have some of the Ampeg models in the Amplitube - and I read that Ampeg actively worked with them to get the model sounding like an Ampeg. This is why the models are called Ampeg B15, etc. Whereas the Line6 just bought the kit and played and recorded and analysed to produce their models - which are not called Ampeg - but are given names that imply. A very thin line between being sued and not. Also Pocket GK worked with Gallien Krueger to produce their models for the iOS app; Ampkit have worked with Peavey and now Ashdown to produce their models. The same applies as I see them in the FX pedal, cab, mic models. Edited September 17, 2012 by vsmith1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahpook Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 (edited) if MGM trademarked their lion's roar then assuming you could say 'this' sound is unmstakably ampeg and could provide a decent case then you could trademark it, but not copyright it. Edited September 17, 2012 by ahpook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjones Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1347810974' post='1805301'] Really? I've got an old MF135 tractor but I didn't know the engine noise was protected. Good excuse for this (although not a MF tractor): [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDHzK3Xe7Yw[/media] [/quote] I aways thought Harley Davidsons sounded a lot like tractors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spinynorman Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 So, if I want to create a shape to sell as a Rackenbicker, how much does it have to deviate from the original spec to avoid infringing the trademark? Is that why all the effort goes into taking individual sales off eBay, when there doesn't seem to have been as much effort to stop the production at source? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 [quote name='spinynorman' timestamp='1347889218' post='1806165'] So, if I want to create a shape to sell as a Rackenbicker, how much does it have to deviate from the original spec to avoid infringing the trademark? Is that why all the effort goes into taking individual sales off eBay, when there doesn't seem to have been as much effort to stop the production at source? [/quote] Because for Mr Hall getting eBay to remove individual listings is easy. Stopping a Chinese factory producing lookalikes is somewhat more difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 It's "look & feel" isn't it? You'd think that no one in their right mind would be fooled by a Kay short-scale bolt-neck copy, or even by an Ibanez with entirely the wrong pickups, but if they are being marketed as [color=#b22222][i][b]like a R-word [/b][/i][/color]then the legals cut in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.