Vintage Fender Basses - need advice

[drTStingray]

I'm thinking of buying a vintage bass, largely as an investment, to play at home and maybe very very occassionally for gigs etc.

I hear lots of talk of this year is better than that, this colour is better than that etc etc but I'm keen to hear advice on this.

My likes are:- clay dots/rosewood board; sunburst, blonde, fiesta red or sonic blue - don't care if it's a Precision or a Jazz - would need to be fully functional and as original as possible - i.e it would need to have the covers and case etc etc. If a Precision I don't like the pre-57 shape.

So guys, please advise - what do you think is the best year, colour and model to aim for of a pre CBS Fender, bearing in mind it's intended to be an investment and increase in value.

[gjones]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1347965923' post='1807184']
I'm thinking of buying a vintage bass, largely as an investment, to play at home and maybe very very occassionally for gigs etc.

I hear lots of talk of this year is better than that, this colour is better than that etc etc but I'm keen to hear advice on this.

My likes are:- clay dots/rosewood board; sunburst, blonde, fiesta red or sonic blue - don't care if it's a Precision or a Jazz - would need to be fully functional and as original as possible - i.e it would need to have the covers and case etc etc. If a Precision I don't like the pre-57 shape.

So guys, please advise - what do you think is the best year, colour and model to aim for of a pre CBS Fender, bearing in mind it's intended to be an investment and increase in value.
[/quote]

Do vintage basses value increase over the years? Or do they just keep up with inflation? Whatever, it's got to be a better investment than putting your money into shares or in the bank.

[brensabre79]

+1
The days of buying old guitars as an investment passed a long time ago in the 80s when lots of bankers bought old strats and gibsons at heavily inflated prices and subsequently lost a fortune. The downside to this is that there are many fantastic instruments out there that musicians can't afford to buy and put them to the use they were intended for.

If you want an investment, go invest in smartdust, or nanotechnology, or just open a bank account if you want a better ROI.

If you want an instrument to play, enjoy, love and look after for a while then get yourself a nice 60s P-Bass and enjoy it.

[thodrik]

Forget about years, colours, finishes or even the level of cosmetic damage. Just play a few and buy the one that plays and sounds good and isn't priced at a ridiculous value. When it comes to pre CBS Fenders there is a lot of stories about good years and finishes, but that won't guarantee that an individual bass will actually be any good just because it belongs to a particular time period.

My view is that there is no point in buying the most original, mint condition vintage instrument if you gain no real joy in playing it.

[Bassman Steve]

I have been down that route and tend to agree. The days of investment are gone I reckon, instruments are just too heavily priced for there to any room for inflation.

A mint condition instrument will always be more valuable and a stack-knob Jazz will always command more than a Precision of the same year etc.

My advice (FWIW) is find an instrument you like and buy that. Play it and enjoy it and eventually sell it for maybe a little more than you paid but remember you've enjoyed playing it for the time you have it.

[throwoff]

My honest opinion if you are looking to invest?

Buy old Warwicks. Pennys at the moment and they will be worth more one day in the future.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1347965923' post='1807184']
I'm thinking of buying a vintage bass, largely as an investment, to play at home and maybe very very occassionally for gigs etc.

I hear lots of talk of this year is better than that, this colour is better than that etc etc but I'm keen to hear advice on this.

My likes are:- clay dots/rosewood board; sunburst, blonde, fiesta red or sonic blue - don't care if it's a Precision or a Jazz - would need to be fully functional and as original as possible - i.e it would need to have the covers and case etc etc. If a Precision I don't like the pre-57 shape.

So guys, please advise - what do you think is the best year, colour and model to aim for of a pre CBS Fender, bearing in mind it's intended to be an investment and increase in value.
[/quote] PM the one or two experts we have on this site. They will be able to give a wee bit of advice and point you in the right direction. (though bear in mind you are getting their knowledge and skills in the area for free.... so don't take the P!)
Personally - and unless you know what you are looking for and how to get a bargin, I would have thoguht that as an investment better things might be found outside the oversaturated 50-60's fender market!

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='thodrik' timestamp='1347973969' post='1807425']
Forget about years, colours, finishes or even the level of cosmetic damage. Just play a few and buy the one that plays and sounds good and isn't priced at a ridiculous value. When it comes to pre CBS Fenders there is a lot of stories about good years and finishes, but that won't guarantee that an individual bass will actually be any good just because it belongs to a particular time period.

My view is that there is no point in buying the most original, mint condition vintage instrument if you gain no real joy in playing it.
[/quote]

For the most part, I'd agree with this. Every bass should be judged on its merits, I've seen some '63 Jazz's for example that are absolute dogs, so year alone is not an indication on quality, or investment.

Having said that, you can generally rely on them to increase in value, but you must have a good one, that will always appeal to players and collectors. All of mine have increased in value since buying, some significantly so. The main things to consider are;

Firstly, and most importantly, does it play properly, and does everything function as it should, Truss rod free, with plenty of movement?, wiring and pots crackle free, neck straight, good intonation etc.

If all that stuff is OK, then you know it plays, and therefore is fit for its primary function, so huge tick in the box, and then you can move on to the stuff that should be considered, if you are also hoping for investment opportunity, these things include;

Originality, particularly finish. Refinished basses will never appreciate at the same rate as original finishes. Most collectors won't touch refinished guitars, so your market, when re-selling, is instantly reduced. On the other hand, by the same token, refin'd guitars are much cheaper in the first place, which can mean you can afford a '62 Jazz, for the same price as a '68 original finish Jazz.
Original pickups, pots etc are also vitally important. Basically, the more thats original, the more desirable. If it has original case, this also makes a difference.

Years, and colours, is very difficult, as each one should be taken on its individual merits. the [i]general[/i] rule of thumb, is the earlier the better, so, a '60 Jazz will be more valuable than a '62, which will be more valuable than a '64. Slab necks are also far more desirable than veneer necks on Jazzes.
Precisions are a bit different, as there were more models available, and each one has a transition period, which brings in different things to different collectors, but you've already said you dont like the pre-57 shape, so that makes it far easier. A gold anodized guard/maple neck is probably the most desirable, and regarded as the ultimate fender bass, the one that Leo finally perfected after the earlier 6 years. A gold guard, with rosewood neck is rarer, but less desirable, as it looks odd for the purists. From there, again, its generally earlier the better. A slab board is better than a veneer board, spaghetti logo's without pat numbers, better than ones with. Transition decals are then cheaper than spaghetti's etc.

Colours. Custom colours are rarer than sunbursts, but can be an acquired taste, not everyone likes candy apple red, or lake placid blue, including me. I personally think a Fender bass should be sunburst or blonde, depending on the era, and thats what I buy, others collect [i]only[/i] custom colours! Again, each one on its merits, and of course, whether it's value or not.
Also, some custom colours are crazy rare, Teal Green for example, on a jazz is highly prized, and can command serious cash, Black, also a custom colour, is a bit of a no-no when it comes to old Fenders, and can be very difficult to shift, collectors generally won't touch one.

In summary, originality, playability, rarity and condition, will dictate the value, and subsequent appreciation, and re-saleability (made up word!), the higher the rating on each of those 4 counts, the better the investment opportunity...in the medium to long term of course, not much doubles over night!

Cautionary note, an instrument (or anything), will only be a good investment if you dont pay over the odds in the first place, so make sure its a good opportunity. Todays market is an excellent time to buy, with more choice out there than I've known for a long time (Even if most are in the US, which may be an issue for some buyers).

i would also advise you to firstly buy a guitar because it plays and sounds how you want it to, and secondly for the other factors. Don't just buy a guitar because its 'vintage'.

Your budget, and only you will know what this is, will dictate what level instrument you will be looking at, whether it's an original '58 Precision, an original '63 Precision, a refinished '64 Jazz etc. Shop around, use gBase as a guide to what prices things are being offered at, and make a judgement.

I'd be more than happy to advise on anything you have in mind, and give an objective view.

Hope this helps.

Rick

[Fat Rich]

[quote name='Bassman Steve' timestamp='1347975155' post='1807458']
I have been down that route and tend to agree. The days of investment are gone I reckon, instruments are just too heavily priced for there to any room for inflation.

A mint condition instrument will always be more valuable and a stack-knob Jazz will always command more than a Precision of the same year etc.

My advice (FWIW) is find an instrument you like and buy that. Play it and enjoy it and eventually sell it for maybe a little more than you paid but remember you've enjoyed playing it for the time you have it.
[/quote]

This is pretty much my thinking. I've bought a fairly tidy 75 Precision and a few scruffy 70s Jazzes that I particularly like the sound and feel of, but probably wouldn't appeal to most collectors. I suspect they might eventually go up in value slightly or maybe just keep up with inflation, but I'll enjoy playing them in the meantime and not worry too much if I put a few extra dinks in them.

Buying vintage is probably a wiser investment than buying a custom bass or an expensive Fender model from new which will lose some it's value instantly. But all collectable / vintage markets suffer from dips from time to time so nothing's guaranteed.

But if you invest your money carefully in property (particularly in London and the south-east) you can make much more money much more quickly and buy any bass you want without worrying about resale value

[LukeFRC]

though there does seem to be a 30 year rule... about 30 years after they were made Fenders start to go up in value - when I started playing 10 years back late '60's fenders weren't desirable and you avoided the 70's at all cost.... now early, and even late 70's fenders are shooting up in cost to buy. Next stop the early 80's fullerton stuff??

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1347980658' post='1807595']
Next stop the early 80's fullerton stuff??
[/quote]

Already happening, really nice examples of '82 Fullertons (Guitars more than basses, but they will follow), with V00 serials, and all the case candy, in custom colours, are already being marketed at $4000, well over double what they were two years ago even! Thats because the majority can no longer afford the pre-CBS stuff, the same as with 70's stuff, as you said earlier.
The added bonus, is that the Fullertons (Earluy ones) are also great guitars, not just collectors pieces. (Not as good as the '82 JV's eh Luke, but still good!)

Here's a fine one, $3800 anyone?

[url="http://www.gbase.com/gear/fender-fullerton-62-reissue-str-1982-reissue-1"]http://www.gbase.com/gear/fender-fullerton-62-reissue-str-1982-reissue-1[/url]

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Rick's Fine '52' timestamp='1347981929' post='1807623']
Already happening, really nice examples of '82 Fullertons (Guitars more than basses, but they will follow), with V00 serials, and all the case candy, in custom colours, are already being marketed at $4000, well over double what they were two years ago even! Thats because the majority can no longer afford the pre-CBS stuff, the same as with 70's stuff, as you said earlier.
The added bonus, is that the Fullertons (Earluy ones) are also great guitars, not just collectors pieces. (Not as good as the '82 JV's eh Luke, but still good!)

Here's a fine one, $3800 anyone?

[url="http://www.gbase.com/gear/fender-fullerton-62-reissue-str-1982-reissue-1"]http://www.gbase.com...-1982-reissue-1[/url]
[/quote]

do you think it will go beyond there? I mean everything since fullerton stuff kinda blurs into one as they split production across mexico and the states and japan- I guess the custom shop stuff will hold it's value

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1347982785' post='1807640']
do you think it will go beyond there? I mean everything since fullerton stuff kinda blurs into one as they split production across mexico and the states and japan- I guess the custom shop stuff will hold it's value
[/quote]

Custom Shop relics for example have been between £1200 and £1600 for 10 years now, and as they are still being made, and to the same specs as the ones in say 2000, it's unlikely to change. The Cunetto Relics are the only ones that differ, they can easily fetch double that, as they were made differently, quite limited, and only made for a brief period, so they are relatively exclusive. Anything with a level of exclusivity, [i]and[/i] renowned quality, should increase in value, as history has, and does tell us.

Apart from the early '82 JV's, I can't see other Jap, Mex or US reissues ever being sought after, or increasing in value, as there was never great attention to detail, quality, or anything different with those, than the ones still made today. If they are good examples, they should hold value, although there are always dozens for sale at any one time, so that will keep the prices stable.

[thodrik]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1347980658' post='1807595']
though there does seem to be a 30 year rule... about 30 years after they were made Fenders start to go up in value - when I started playing 10 years back late '60's fenders weren't desirable and you avoided the 70's at all cost.... now early, and even late 70's fenders are shooting up in cost to buy. Next stop the early 80's fullerton stuff??
[/quote]

Pretty much. In 1998 my 1978 Precision cost me £380. I've seen basses from a similar era going for £1200 or even more. Its strange though as the basses themselves are no better than they were ten years ago. At the current rate, buying one of those 'Boner' Jazz basses could lead to a decent return in twenty years or so.

[Lozz196]

Yes, late 70s are fetching good prices. My 77 was £1350, and my 78 was £1200. And in all likelyhood, they will only go up in value - 10 years from now I reckon nearer the £2K mark.

[gareth]

[quote name='Rick's Fine '52' timestamp='1347976791' post='1807503']
, Black, also a custom colour, is a bit of a no-no when it comes to old Fenders, and can be very difficult to shift, collectors generally won't touch one.


[/quote]

thanks for that - I have always wondered why old black fenders seem so unpopular and take ages to sell

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1347997426' post='1807967']
Yes, late 70s are fetching good prices. My 77 was £1350, and my 78 was £1200. And in all likelyhood, they will only go up in value - 10 years from now I reckon nearer the £2K mark.
[/quote]doubt it will take 10 years (depending on the economy)

[Cat Burrito]

Prices seem to have dipped since the recession too. 2009 was probably the highest they got, stuff seems to sit around for a lot longer now and be going a good £200 less these days.

[drTStingray]

[quote name='Rick's Fine '52' timestamp='1347976791' post='1807503']
For the most part, I'd agree with this. Every bass should be judged on its merits, I've seen some '63 Jazz's for example that are absolute dogs, so year alone is not an indication on quality, or investment.

Having said that, you can generally rely on them to increase in value, but you must have a good one, that will always appeal to players and collectors. All of mine have increased in value since buying, some significantly so. The main things to consider are;

Firstly, and most importantly, does it play properly, and does everything function as it should, Truss rod free, with plenty of movement?, wiring and pots crackle free, neck straight, good intonation etc.

If all that stuff is OK, then you know it plays, and therefore is fit for its primary function, so huge tick in the box, and then you can move on to the stuff that should be considered, if you are also hoping for investment opportunity, these things include;

Originality, particularly finish. Refinished basses will never appreciate at the same rate as original finishes. Most collectors won't touch refinished guitars, so your market, when re-selling, is instantly reduced. On the other hand, by the same token, refin'd guitars are much cheaper in the first place, which can mean you can afford a '62 Jazz, for the same price as a '68 original finish Jazz.
Original pickups, pots etc are also vitally important. Basically, the more thats original, the more desirable. If it has original case, this also makes a difference.

Years, and colours, is very difficult, as each one should be taken on its individual merits. the [i]general[/i] rule of thumb, is the earlier the better, so, a '60 Jazz will be more valuable than a '62, which will be more valuable than a '64. Slab necks are also far more desirable than veneer necks on Jazzes.
Precisions are a bit different, as there were more models available, and each one has a transition period, which brings in different things to different collectors, but you've already said you dont like the pre-57 shape, so that makes it far easier. A gold anodized guard/maple neck is probably the most desirable, and regarded as the ultimate fender bass, the one that Leo finally perfected after the earlier 6 years. A gold guard, with rosewood neck is rarer, but less desirable, as it looks odd for the purists. From there, again, its generally earlier the better. A slab board is better than a veneer board, spaghetti logo's without pat numbers, better than ones with. Transition decals are then cheaper than spaghetti's etc.

Colours. Custom colours are rarer than sunbursts, but can be an acquired taste, not everyone likes candy apple red, or lake placid blue, including me. I personally think a Fender bass should be sunburst or blonde, depending on the era, and thats what I buy, others collect [i]only[/i] custom colours! Again, each one on its merits, and of course, whether it's value or not.
Also, some custom colours are crazy rare, Teal Green for example, on a jazz is highly prized, and can command serious cash, Black, also a custom colour, is a bit of a no-no when it comes to old Fenders, and can be very difficult to shift, collectors generally won't touch one.

In summary, originality, playability, rarity and condition, will dictate the value, and subsequent appreciation, and re-saleability (made up word!), the higher the rating on each of those 4 counts, the better the investment opportunity...in the medium to long term of course, not much doubles over night!

Cautionary note, an instrument (or anything), will only be a good investment if you dont pay over the odds in the first place, so make sure its a good opportunity. Todays market is an excellent time to buy, with more choice out there than I've known for a long time (Even if most are in the US, which may be an issue for some buyers).

i would also advise you to firstly buy a guitar because it plays and sounds how you want it to, and secondly for the other factors. Don't just buy a guitar because its 'vintage'.

Your budget, and only you will know what this is, will dictate what level instrument you will be looking at, whether it's an original '58 Precision, an original '63 Precision, a refinished '64 Jazz etc. Shop around, use gBase as a guide to what prices things are being offered at, and make a judgement.

I'd be more than happy to advise on anything you have in mind, and give an objective view.

Hope this helps.

Rick
[/quote]

Rick - thanks for this, it's very helpful. If/when I do get to the stage of buying one I'll certainly PM you. Thanks to everyone else as well. I would certainly want to buy one which functioned properly, played well and was as original as possible (thus implying the need to try before buying) - many seem to have replacement pots and tuners but I guess this is wear and tear?

Would this put people off, in terms of resale desirability? I've had to replace more than one tuner on my Musicman basses, but with Musicman items - basically caused by gigging damage (pesky drummers and all that steelwork!! And sax players are almost as dangerous) - so I would see this as a not-unusual situation in a vintage bass, so long as the correct items had been used to effect the repair - I guess a good player is more likely to have been played and thus may be more battered than a case queen that had sat there because owners didn't like it as a player - or do collectors just park them for decades to look at or not as the case may be?

[quote name='thodrik' timestamp='1347995167' post='1807902']
Pretty much. In 1998 my 1978 Precision cost me £380. I've seen basses from a similar era going for £1200 or even more. Its strange though as the basses themselves are no better than they were ten years ago.[/quote]

That's very interesting - FWIW in 1973 I spent several idle minutes and more every time I passsed a shop window in which resided a brand new Precision in natural, maple board, black scratchplate near where I lived - THE R and B bass of the time to have, as seen with Stevie Wonder and others of the time - it's tag price was £252! So given that was the age of huge inflation, a value of a late 70s bass (similar era) selling in 1998 at about £400 is quite surprising. As a comparison the sunburst Stingray I bought new in 79/80 was £350/£375, I think. I sold it for £475 about 5 yrs later - it sold within an hour or two of the ad appearing in the back of Melody Maker, and the guy drove 100 miles that night to collect it!!

Just goes to show that the market goes up and down, but 30 yr thing is very interesting - and I agree, the price of 70s Fenders (and Musicman) has increased dramatically - I guess it's because the value of the 60s stuff has moved out of reach of many people who want to own and play them.

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1348007496' post='1808181']
I guess a good player is more likely to have been played and thus may be more battered than a case queen that had sat there because owners didn't like it as a player - or do collectors just park them for decades to look at or not as the case may be?
[/quote]

Commonly, a good player will show signs of such wear, but there are exceptions, there are examples of great playing instruments, that have genuinly been unplayed , or untouched for lots of reasons. Often players bought instruments in the 50's or 60's because they were in bands, then after the bands fell apart after a couple of years, the guitars were resigned to closets etc (Hence the term), and genuinly untouched. Its only many years later when people re-find these things, that they appear on the market. These fine condition specimins are therefore highly sought after.
As an example, my Paisley telecaster bass was bought by someone who only played it for around 6 months, it then went out of fashion very quickly, and was left in a cupboard for over 40 years, its almost mint, it does happen, although not as often as we'd all like!

Most collectors, me included, dont wrap instruments in cotton wool, and store them away (There are of course exceptions). I play all mine, although some are treated more carefully than others, for valid reasons. For example, the bakelite pickguard on my '52 is so easily marked, even with fingers and palms, and because of its condition, if this deteriorated too much, it would affect its value etc, so one must be sensible. It does get played though, but it is kept in a good case, and not in the rack with some of my others. All my other P's show wear, and are played regularly, without too much concern, although I have other basses that are more suited to the Dog & Duck!

Happy to help where/when I can mate.

[LukeFRC]

BTW the 30 year rule thing is something I just have noticed- no idea if it's actually true or carries on!

[quote name='Rick's Fine '52' timestamp='1348008772' post='1808200']
I play all mine, although some are treated more carefully than others, for valid reasons. For example....
[/quote]

".... you ride about on your bike with your JV on your back - please don't do that!" a paraphrased bit of advice from Rick!

Edited September 18, 2012 by LukeFRC

[Fat Rich]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1348007496' post='1808181']
......................I would certainly want to buy one which functioned properly, played well and was as original as possible (thus implying the need to try before buying)[/quote]

Absolutely essential to try before buying in my opinion, do some research by going somewhere that has lots in stock and hear and feel the differences between otherwise identical instruments.

The Gallery in Camden seem to have a quite a few in at the moment [url="http://www.thebassgallery.com/Product_VintageGear.cfm"]http://www.thebassga...VintageGear.cfm[/url] also Andy Baxter in Shoreditch usually has loads [url="http://andybaxterbass.com/"]http://andybaxterbass.com/[/url]

I tried two almost identical Jazz basses, one a scruffy well worn 72 and one an almost pristine 69. Despite both basses being nice and light, having fresh strings and a good setup the pristine 69 sounded like junk, everything that was bad about CBS basses. The 72 however was great and is now one of my favourite basses.

I'd suggest getting out there and playing some now even if you're not ready to buy, it can take a while to find what you're looking for.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Fat Rich

[RandomBass]

If I had the money I'd buy myself a birth-year Jazz to play and enjoy. Unfortunately a '65 is somewhat out of my price range, so my 2010 one will do me just fine

[LiamPodmore]

30 years till they start going up? Only a few years till my '86 Precision goes up then, though i think the huge battery compartment and EMG pickups might just knock that back a little... Or a lot...

Liam

[wateroftyne]

I think the days of snaffling pre-1975 bargains are over. I did OK with my current crop, and past purchases, as I bought them at very reasonable prices.

We've seen the prices of early 80's buyout-era basses rise a fair bit... my guess is the longhorns will be the next to bump up a bit.

That said, vintage stuff holds its' value better then most band-new basses. New car syndrome, innit. If you want to buy a bass as an investment, be prepared to hang on to it for a VERY long time.