Vintage Fender Basses - need advice

[Conan]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1348044229' post='1808363']
I think the days of snaffling pre-1975 bargains are over.[/quote]

Yeah. Now that everyone has internet access it's dead easy to do a quick google search to see that the bass that languished in Grandad's attic for decades actually has a value... and put yourself in touch with buyers.

The days of turning up bargains in car boot sales and house-clearance shops would appear to have gone. Most of the really collectable instruments have already found homes.

Buy a decent 1980s or 1990s Fender and hang on to it for as long as you can maybe, but that is a very slow way to make money!

Also, the market is an absolute minefield so unless you know someone who is a real expert, you are pretty likely to be ripped off for something that is not what it seems to be.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Conan

[franzbassist]

Good thread

Even if a vintage bass doesn't increase in value at a rate that makes it a good investment at the moment, it will almost certainly hold its value better than a bass bought new.

I have bought a number of boutique basses over the years and, much like driving a new car off the forecourt, they have always lost a large chunk of their value as soon as I picked them up - the one exception to this rule are Wals! - so now I'd rather pay a decent price for a used instrumet that I know is a fantastic player. This applies to proper vintage basses as well as instruments of more recent construction.

My 1970 fretless P bass is a good example: it's an absolute tone machine and is just a joy to play. It wasn't cheap, has plenty of "mojo" and isn't 100% original as the original pots had been removed (I put a vintage set back in though ), but it will hold value.

Happy hunting!

Gareth

[Hutton]

[quote name='Rick's Fine '52' timestamp='1347981929' post='1807623']
Already happening, really nice examples of '82 Fullertons (Guitars more than basses, but they will follow), with V00 serials, and all the case candy, in custom colours, are already being marketed at $4000, well over double what they were two years ago even! Thats because the majority can no longer afford the pre-CBS stuff, the same as with 70's stuff, as you said earlier.
The added bonus, is that the Fullertons (Earluy ones) are also great guitars, not just collectors pieces. (Not as good as the '82 JV's eh Luke, but still good!)

Here's a fine one, $3800 anyone?

[url="http://www.gbase.com/gear/fender-fullerton-62-reissue-str-1982-reissue-1"]http://www.gbase.com...-1982-reissue-1[/url]
[/quote]

I'm interested to read what Rick says about the '82' Fullertons. I have an 84 precision that would go along with the strat in the picture. I have another precision which is an 83. They are the USA standard offering of the time. I like them for the looks but also for the quality of the instrument. The 82-85 standard series also seemed to me to have their own character as opposed to being a reissue of a former model. It would be nice to think that they will rise in value but I bought them as playing instruments and not as investments.

[IMG]http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c322/Williamwood/P%2084%203_zpsf32bbce5.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c322/Williamwood/8283%20Precision%201_zps3248c6b3.jpg[/IMG]

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='Hutton' timestamp='1348046538' post='1808408']
I'm interested to read what Rick says about the '82' Fullertons. I have an 84 precision that would go along with the strat in the picture. I have another precision which is an 83. They are the USA standard offering of the time. I like them for the looks but also for the quality of the instrument. The 82-85 standard series also seemed to me to have their own character as opposed to being a reissue of a former model. It would be nice to think that they will rise in value but I bought them as playing instruments and not as investments.
[/quote]

I think the Fullertons have more appeal, because they are pretty good reissues of vintage instruments, and folk will always be lured to vintage gear. If the pre-CBS stuff is out of price range, but you still want something that is great to look at, play, and will hold value, or most likely increase, then the Fullertons are what people will, and are, naturally turning to, hence the price rise.
The Dan Smith era '82+ standard range, are still great guitars, but the headstock decal style alone, puts many off, as the masses, i beleive, prefer the vintage look. They are great playing guitars though, and probably a very good buy at the price.

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='Hutton' timestamp='1348046538' post='1808408']
.



[/quote]

BTW, I love that colour with the white guard, beautiful. Is it the same colour under the guard, or is it a very aged Oly white?

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1348045320' post='1808378']
Yeah. Now that everyone has internet access it's dead easy to do a quick google search to see that the bass that languished in Grandad's attic for decades actually has a value... and put yourself in touch with buyers.

The days of turning up bargains in car boot sales and house-clearance shops would appear to have gone. Most of the really collectable instruments have already found homes.

[/quote]

I think there's a a lot of truth in this, the internet certainly makes things alot more accessible to the wider public. I remember scouring music press mags years ago, and guitar mags, you'd see a great private ad for something spectacular, phone them up, only to find he'd sold it the first day of the mag going to print (Or even before, to someone who worked at the mag, which was often the case!), and had received 50 calls since. It was very much a case of first come first served in those days, now its a nice 10 day auction, for the whole world to see, very different game indeed.

You can still find them though. last year I bought a '66 Vox Foundation Head and 2x15 matched cab, with the chrome head stand, it was on gumtree for £250, i bought, paid and collected it the same day, sold it a week later, as i didnt have the space to keep it, for £1100. I'm sure many of us still have recent stories like that (Another thread please! ), but just to say, it can happen, but yes, these opportunities are few and far between.

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1348044229' post='1808363']
I think the days of snaffling pre-1975 bargains are over. I did OK with my current crop, and past purchases, as I bought them at very reasonable prices.

We've seen the prices of early 80's buyout-era basses rise a fair bit... my guess is the longhorns will be the next to bump up a bit.

That said, vintage stuff holds its' value better then most band-new basses. New car syndrome, innit. If you want to buy a bass as an investment, be prepared to hang on to it for a VERY long time.
[/quote]

Vintage stuff still appreciates though. I bought my '58 gold guard P, from a very famous denmark street dealer (The good one), in 2003, and its advertised price was £2500, i traded another vintage bass for it, but that was the price, the full on, ticket price in the most expensive vintage guitar street in the UK, and it was £2500!, i remember it was the going rate at the time, and i had it, because it was the first one i'd ever seen for sale in the UK, since I'd started collecting, so snapped it up. Its now worth upwards of 3x that. A boutique bass bought in 2003 certainly wouldnt be. My point is, they climb steadily, you dont have to wait yonks, obviosuly the longer you wait, the more it would appreciate, but 5 years would see you make money for sure, and have had 5 years owning and playing a great bass. certainly better than money in the bank at 0% interest, and what fun is that.

[Conan]

[quote name='Rick's Fine '52' timestamp='1348058561' post='1808611']
they climb steadily, you dont have to wait yonks, 5 years would see you make money for sure, and have had 5 years owning and playing a great bass. certainly better than money in the bank at 0% interest, and what fun is that.
[/quote]

Now just stop it! That kind of talk has been known to make people make silly decisions!

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Rick's Fine '52' timestamp='1348058561' post='1808611']
Vintage stuff still appreciates though. I bought my '58 gold guard P, from a very famous denmark street dealer (The good one), in 2003, and its advertised price was £2500, i traded another vintage bass for it, but that was the price, the full on, ticket price in the most expensive vintage guitar street in the UK, and it was £2500!, i remember it was the going rate at the time, and i had it, because it was the first one i'd ever seen for sale in the UK, since I'd started collecting, so snapped it up. Its now worth upwards of 3x that. A boutique bass bought in 2003 certainly wouldnt be. My point is, they climb steadily, you dont have to wait yonks, obviosuly the longer you wait, the more it would appreciate, but 5 years would see you make money for sure, and have had 5 years owning and playing a great bass. certainly better than money in the bank at 0% interest, and what fun is that.
[/quote]

I generally agree - you're certainly unlikely to [i]lose[/i] money in a five-year period. But to be sure of a return you're going to need to wait a while longer - the market is a bit wobbly and might get worse.

Edited September 19, 2012 by wateroftyne

[drTStingray]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1348009324' post='1808209']
BTW the 30 year rule thing is something I just have noticed- no idea if it's actually true or carries on[/quote]

Folks - please note. However I have also noticed this - as people who know me will know, my main bass playing interest is Musicman, and for the last few years I have watched the price of late 70s and especially early 80s basses escalate in price. I have bought new ones in the past although have picked up an early 90s one recently (which I use almost weekly in gigs!) - I passed on buying an MM Cutlass and an artist owned pre EB Ray in the early 2000s - kick myself on one hand, but then think I wouldn't have the gorgeous SR5 I bought new at the time if I'd bought one of these. I expect that these modern basses may increase in value as they get much older - but that will be something for my children to think about!! I ain't selling em.

[quote name='Fat Rich' timestamp='1348040968' post='1808318']
Absolutely essential to try before buying in my opinion, do some research by going somewhere that has lots in stock and hear and feel the differences between otherwise identical instruments.

The Gallery in Camden seem to have a quite a few in at the moment [url="http://www.thebassgallery.com/Product_VintageGear.cfm"]http://www.thebassga...VintageGear.cfm[/url] also Andy Baxter in Shoreditch usually has loads [url="http://andybaxterbass.com/"]http://andybaxterbass.com/[/url]

I tried two almost identical Jazz basses, one a scruffy well worn 72 and one an almost pristine 69. Despite both basses being nice and light, having fresh strings and a good setup the pristine 69 sounded like junk, everything that was bad about CBS basses. The 72 however was great and is now one of my favourite basses.

I'd suggest getting out there and playing some now even if you're not ready to buy, it can take a while to find what you're looking for.
[/quote]

Good advice thanks - I do look at what the Bass Gallery has, and have spent time in Vintage and Rare also on occassion. Andy Baxter has Musicmans including a Sabre.......................I think I would get side-tracked!!!

Edited September 19, 2012 by drTStingray

[Fat Rich]

It also worth pointing out the ticket / website prices in most of these dealers is often highly optimistic, I've offered well below and been surprised at how quickly they've agreed to it.

For example I got £700 off the ticket price of my 72 Jazz although there was a bit of a story behind that (which I won't go into on here as the problem was sorted out promptly and to my satisfaction, I don't think the shop will make that mistake again).

Also £650 off my 74 Jazz which was a deal I was happy with, then the shop unexpectedly threw in about £100 of goodies, plus their free setups for 2 years, which involved giving it a free fret dress straight away.

So, don't be afraid to make a [b][i]very[/i][/b] cheeky offer!

[Happy Jack]

Some very good advice on this thread, from some very knowledgeable people.

My tupp'orth - I've gone down this very route and my two most valuable basses are my '57 P and my '65 P. Both were bought in the knowledge that I was definitely not going to be selling them any time soon, and that they would anyway only be sold at a "good" time in the market.

That sort-of puts them in the same category as buying your flat or house. You can get as excited as you like by soaring property prices, or as depressed as you like by negative equity, but both emotions are irrelevant unless you are about to sell.

I don't know for sure whether either/both of my P-basses have gone up or down in value, and frankly, my dear, I don't [i]give [/i]a damn.

What I do know is that, rather unexpectedly, both my two ridiculously valuable old Precisions have become my two favourite gigging basses, and yes, I really have been playing them both in pubs and at functions over the last year or so.

They're there to be played, so play them.

[Hutton]

[quote name='Rick's Fine '52' timestamp='1348057575' post='1808587']
BTW, I love that colour with the white guard, beautiful. Is it the same colour under the guard, or is it a very aged Oly white?
[/quote]

It does look nice. The colour is ivory and was one of the standard colours at the time.

[tonyf]

[quote name='throwoff' timestamp='1347975931' post='1807480']
My honest opinion if you are looking to invest?

Buy old Warwicks. Pennys at the moment and they will be worth more one day in the future.
[/quote]

TBH, that's not what I'm finding at the moment though although it could be Warwick model specific.

I really (I mean REALLY) fancy another Thumb (had a four- and a five-string NT a while ago that I stupidly sold) but the one's that come up for sale are all north of the £1000-£1100 mark. I think I got rid of mine during the "unfashionable" period but still got near enough what I'd paid for them.

T

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='Fat Rich' timestamp='1348060167' post='1808642']
So, don't be afraid to make a [b][i]very[/i][/b] cheeky offer!
[/quote]

Oh, I would definitely advise this. I know most of the vintage dealers, and they know when i call about something, it will start with a very silly offer, normally a sensible meet in the middle is found. remember, with the rarer stuff, particularly stuff that hasnt shown itself for a while, there's no real benchmark, and I dont begrudge dealers starting off punting things highly, they also know this, so start silly, and go from there. Ultimately, they hold the cards, and will keep saying no until, unsurprisingly, they say yes, which is hopefully at a point the buyer is also happy with.
I also find a pile of cash on their counter in elastic bands can also be a very large pursuader, especially on a Friday lunchtime after they've had a sh*t week of sales!! Play them at their own game! And it [i]is[/i] a buyers market out there at the moment.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Rick's Fine '52

[tonyf]

[quote name='Rick's Fine '52' timestamp='1348063976' post='1808735']
Oh, I would definitely advise this. I know most of the vintage dealers, and they know when i call about something, it will start with a very silly offer, normally a sensible meet in the middle is found. remember, with the rarer stuff, particularly stuff that hasnt shown itself for a while, there's no real benchmark, and I dont begrudge dealers starting off punting things highly, they also know this, so start silly, and go from there. Ultimately, they hold the cards, and will keep saying no until, unsurprisingly, they say yes, which is hopefully at a point the buyer is also happy with.
I also find a pile of cash on their counter in elastic bands can also be a very large pursuader, especially on a Friday lunchtime after they've had a sh*t week of sales!! Play them at their own game! And it [i]is[/i] a buyers market out there at the moment.
[/quote]

+1

The old saying, "cash is king"

[LukeFRC]

to the OP - would old pre EB stingrays suit you more than old fenders - if that's what you play and are knowledgeable about?

[drTStingray]

I would not rule that out. However, if I go down the vintage/investment route a pre CBS Fender is a likely target.

[LukeFRC]

do you not think that the potential increase on a good preEB over the next 20 years might be more than an already high price in a satuated pre CBS Fender market? If it were me, unless I found a bargin, I would buy several basses likely to increase rather than one already high one.

[Musky]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1348092052' post='1809333']
do you not think that the potential increase on a good preEB over the next 20 years might be more than an already high price in a satuated pre CBS Fender market? If it were me, unless I found a bargin, I would buy several basses likely to increase rather than one already high one.
[/quote]

+1

There's a lot of talk in this thread underpinned by an apparent belief that vintage instruments will [i]always[/i] climb in value. Perhaps they will, but maybe they won't - who knows? What we do know is that there have been big changes going on in the music industry, not least that bands are no longer the only game in town. The dance side of things has already taken off big time time, with nary a 'real' instrument in sight, something that is likely to become even more common in the future if the current drought of recorded music sakes continues. There are real economic benefits if you can record the bulk of your tracks in the bedroom rather than paying big bucks for a band recording in a quality studio. So we'll most likely see a bigger market for music which has no need for basses and a commensurate drop in the numbers wanting to buy them. All of which is probably quite a long term view, and at 50 one I might not be around to see come to pass.

If we're talking about purely investment here you'll probably do better looking elsewhere, certainly away from instruments that already fetch very high prices. If you're set on buying a bass it's the future classics I'd be looking at. G&L?

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Musky' timestamp='1348094370' post='1809377']
+1

There's a lot of talk in this thread underpinned by an apparent belief that vintage instruments will [i]always[/i] climb in value. Perhaps they will, but maybe they won't - who knows? What we do know is that there have been big changes going on in the music industry, not least that bands are no longer the only game in town. The dance side of things has already taken off big time time, with nary a 'real' instrument in sight, something that is likely to become even more common in the future if the current drought of recorded music sakes continues. There are real economic benefits if you can record the bulk of your tracks in the bedroom rather than paying big bucks for a band recording in a quality studio. So we'll most likely see a bigger market for music which has no need for basses and a commensurate drop in the numbers wanting to buy them. All of which is probably quite a long term view, and at 50 one I might not be around to see come to pass.

If we're talking about purely investment here you'll probably do better looking elsewhere, certainly away from instruments that already fetch very high prices. If you're set on buying a bass it's the future classics I'd be looking at. G&L?
[/quote] would love a first edition L1000 - with the flathead screwdriver pole pieces on the pickup. Forget about investment- just play the damn thing!

[Johnnysonic]

[quote name='Rick's Fine '52' timestamp='1347976791' post='1807503']

Black, also a custom colour, is a bit of a no-no when it comes to old Fenders, and can be very difficult to shift, collectors generally won't touch one.



[/quote]What do you base this comment on??!! Black is an extremeley rare colour in the Pre CBS period, so much so that you hardly ever see them. I would agree that a Black P or Jazz wouldn't be as desirable as Shoreline Gold or Sonic Blue, they are sought after, and just as rare. I can think of only one Black pre CBS bass for sale in the world right now - at New Kings Road - and I'm sure many collectors wopuld give their eye-teeth for it.

Johnny

[Fat Rich]

[quote name='Johnnysonic' timestamp='1348133976' post='1809679']
What do you base this comment on??!! Black is an extremeley rare colour in the Pre CBS period, so much so that you hardly ever see them. I would agree that a Black P or Jazz wouldn't be as desirable as Shoreline Gold or Sonic Blue, they are sought after, and just as rare. I can think of only one Black pre CBS bass for sale in the world right now - at New Kings Road - and I'm sure many collectors wopuld give their eye-teeth for it.

Johnny
[/quote]

Here's one, seems very cheap for an L series with matching headstock if it's really largely original:

[url="http://www.bassdirect.co.uk/bass_guitar_specialists/1963_JAzz.html"]http://www.bassdirec.../1963_JAzz.html[/url]

Edited September 20, 2012 by Fat Rich

[Johnnysonic]

Look at the neck pocket in second to last picture. mmm...
[quote name='Fat Rich' timestamp='1348134585' post='1809696']
Here's one, seems very cheap for an L series with matching headstock if it's really largely original:

[url="http://www.bassdirect.co.uk/bass_guitar_specialists/1963_JAzz.html"]http://www.bassdirec.../1963_JAzz.html[/url]
[/quote] Look at the neck pocket in the second to last picture. mmm..

[LiamPodmore]

Loving that '78 P on Bass Direct at the moment, too bad i've not got £1850 (Which is a lot less than i first expected it would be)

Liam