Vintage Fender Basses - need advice

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='Johnnysonic' timestamp='1348133976' post='1809679']
What do you base this comment on??!! Black is an extremeley rare colour in the Pre CBS period, so much so that you hardly ever see them. I would agree that a Black P or Jazz wouldn't be as desirable as Shoreline Gold or Sonic Blue, they are sought after, and just as rare. I can think of only one Black pre CBS bass for sale in the world right now - at New Kings Road - and I'm sure many collectors wopuld give their eye-teeth for it.

Johnny
[/quote]

The comment is based on years of collecting specifically Fender Basses, and interaction, communication etc with fellow collectors. Everyone I know, or have come across, agree that black basses, are not desirable, compared with other finishes. Especially the matched headstock ones. They are a rare custom colour, no doubting that, which i said, just not desirable in basses, guitars are very different though, black strats are sought after, possibly down to a certain Mr Clapton?

I even know collectors who only collect custom colours, and they dont have black ones, as they say they'd rather keep the money for a different one. There's a guy in the US who has been trying to sell a black '68 telecaster bass for years, no-one wants it, because it's odd, yes it's rare, but it's just not 'right'. I don't make these rules or trends, this is just how it is.

Ask anyone, I'm pretty certain you'd get a similar response. Thats just the way it is. Simlar thing with Ricks, burgundyglo is probably the rarer of the standard range of colours, but not very desirable, an acquired taste if you like. For every person who loves it, there'll be 50 who don't, whereas a mapleglo or fireglo is the other way round.

[drTStingray]

Rick - thanks for your advice. I am guessing fiesta red may be the opposite extreme in terms of desirability for a custom colour (particularly on a Precision), given the Pino Palladino and Jet Harris uses of this colour?

The black issue is in contrast to the situation now where (apparently) the most popular colours in terms of sales are black and sunburst.

Edited September 20, 2012 by drTStingray

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1348142928' post='1809900']
The black issue is in contrast to the situation now where (apparently) the most popular colours in terms of sales are black and sunburst.
[/quote]

Don't get me wrong, it's an era thing. 70's black precisions are desirable, maybe because lots of famous players in the 70's used them, but pre-CBS wise, it's just a no-go. It is strange, but thats the way it is. Nowadays, I'm sure black is as common as anything, you certainly see alot around, either being played, or for sale etc. Its just a pre-CBS vintage thingy.

[Fat Rich]

[quote name='Johnnysonic' timestamp='1348135190' post='1809703']
Look at the neck pocket in second to last picture. mmm...

[/quote]

Good spot plus the way the logo is lost in the black finish put me off, did they really leave the factory like that?

[Johnnysonic]

[quote name='Rick's Fine '52' timestamp='1348140747' post='1809826']
The comment is based on years of collecting specifically Fender Basses, and interaction, communication etc with fellow collectors. Everyone I know, or have come across, agree that black basses, are not desirable, compared with other finishes. Especially the matched headstock ones. They are a rare custom colour, no doubting that, which i said, just not desirable in basses, guitars are very different though, black strats are sought after, possibly down to a certain Mr Clapton?

I even know collectors who only collect custom colours, and they dont have black ones, as they say they'd rather keep the money for a different one. There's a guy in the US who has been trying to sell a black '68 telecaster bass for years, no-one wants it, because it's odd, yes it's rare, but it's just not 'right'. I don't make these rules or trends, this is just how it is.

Ask anyone, I'm pretty certain you'd get a similar response. Thats just the way it is. Simlar thing with Ricks, burgundyglo is probably the rarer of the standard range of colours, but not very desirable, an acquired taste if you like. For every person who loves it, there'll be 50 who don't, whereas a mapleglo or fireglo is the other way round.
[/quote]I simply don't agree. I have been collecting and writing about vintage Fender basses for over 30 years. A chunk of my collection is in the Fender Golden Age Book by Foster and Kelly, and I have owned pre CBS basses in almost all the colours (Sonic Blue, Fiesta Red, Burgundy Mist etc), and never in that time have I heard anything negative from collectors about Black. Quite the reverse in fact. Black is super hard to find, and few people have seen real ones. I'm not sure I would take the experience of a '68 Tele Bass as a guide, as few people are looking for those in any custom colour, let alone Black. We really must inhabit different universes!

Johnny

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='Johnnysonic' timestamp='1348148780' post='1810023']
I simply don't agree. I have been collecting and writing about vintage Fender basses for over 30 years. A chunk of my collection is in the Fender Golden Age Book by Foster and Kelly, and I have owned pre CBS basses in almost all the colours (Sonic Blue, Fiesta Red, Burgundy Mist etc), and never in that time have I heard anything negative from collectors about Black. Quite the reverse in fact. Black is super hard to find, and few people have seen real ones. I'm not sure I would take the experience of a '68 Tele Bass as a guide, as few people are looking for those in any custom colour, let alone Black. We really must inhabit different universes!

Johnny
[/quote]

I've not said anything negative about black, and have said all along that it's a very rare custom colour. I just haven't come across anyone that wanted one, or considered them desirable when compared with other rare custom colours. Thats my experience, as your comment is yours.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Johnnysonic' timestamp='1348148780' post='1810023']
I simply don't agree. I have been collecting and writing about vintage Fender basses for over 30 years. A chunk of my collection is in the Fender Golden Age Book by Foster and Kelly, and I have owned pre CBS basses in almost all the colours (Sonic Blue, Fiesta Red, Burgundy Mist etc), and never in that time have I heard anything negative from collectors about Black. Quite the reverse in fact. Black is super hard to find, and few people have seen real ones. I'm not sure I would take the experience of a '68 Tele Bass as a guide, as few people are looking for those in any custom colour, let alone Black. We really must inhabit different universes!

Johnny
[/quote] I am thinking though maybe if you wanted a black pre-CBS fender for less than you thought Rick would be a good person to talk too?

But enough of this- can we see some of your collection?

[pobrien_ie]

Great thread, and it's fantastic hearing the experiences of others!

I fancy picking up up a Fullerton or JV P Bass some day, year of birth and all, it's just a shame people here predict that the Fullertons will appreciate a lot

[Johnnysonic]

Well, here are some of the Fiestas - P, Jazz, Bass VI and Strat. [attachment=118898:IMG_7048.JPG]

[Johnnysonic]

[attachment=118902:IMG_3244.JPG] The P Bass is nice - an early '63.

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='Johnnysonic' timestamp='1348154372' post='1810122']
[attachment=118902:IMG_3244.JPG] The P Bass is nice - an early '63.
[/quote]

Stunning example.

[Happy Jack]

Johnny, would you mind very much posting your full address, including post code.

Some indication of when you will next be away on holiday would also be very helpful.

Thanks in advance,

Jack

[gareth]

[quote name='Rick's Fine '52' timestamp='1348140747' post='1809826']
The comment is based on years of collecting specifically Fender Basses, and interaction, communication etc with fellow collectors. Everyone I know, or have come across, agree that black basses, are not desirable, compared with other finishes. Especially the matched headstock ones. They are a rare custom colour, no doubting that, which i said, just not desirable in basses, guitars are very different though, black strats are sought after, possibly down to a certain Mr Clapton?

I even know collectors who only collect custom colours, and they dont have black ones, as they say they'd rather keep the money for a different one. There's a guy in the US who has been trying to sell a black '68 telecaster bass for years, no-one wants it, because it's odd, yes it's rare, but it's just not 'right'. I don't make these rules or trends, this is just how it is.

Ask anyone, I'm pretty certain you'd get a similar response. Thats just the way it is. Simlar thing with Ricks, burgundyglo is probably the rarer of the standard range of colours, but not very desirable, an acquired taste if you like. For every person who loves it, there'll be 50 who don't, whereas a mapleglo or fireglo is the other way round.
[/quote]

i think he is right about black

[gareth]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1348092052' post='1809333']
do you not think that the potential increase on a good preEB over the next 20 years might be more than an already high price in a satuated pre CBS Fender market?
[/quote]

be interested to know what the experts think about the above

[quote name='Johnnysonic' timestamp='1348154372' post='1810122']

[/quote]
[quote name='Rick's Fine '52' timestamp='1348149394' post='1810033']
[/quote]

Edited September 20, 2012 by gareth

[drTStingray]

[quote name='Johnnysonic' timestamp='1348154372' post='1810122']
[attachment=118902:IMG_3244.JPG] The P Bass is nice - an early '63.
[/quote]

Now that's exactly the sort of thing I had in mind - v nice indeed.

[LukeFRC]

Tonight I could very easily be persuaded to let my JV go -so I can get something that just popped up on ebay.

[drTStingray]

Which is?

[LukeFRC]

My dream bass, forgive me if I don't advertise its presence! Not fender though

[drTStingray]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1348185840' post='1810716']
My dream bass, forgive me if I don't advertise its presence! Not fender though
[/quote]

And what was it (you can whisper in that small font if you want).

Another vintage Fender query - this time about 'natural relicing' - now I understand belt buckle rash, dings on the edges and wear points like the arm contour, but why is it I see vintage Fenders for sale which have heavy paintwork damage in fairly inaccessible areas - such as between the bridge and edge of the body - unless an owner has been carelessly changing strings over and over and over again, say on a daily basis, I don't get it - it sort of looks like deliberate damage to me. Any comments from experts on this??

Edited September 22, 2012 by drTStingray

[Dingus]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1348330455' post='1812445']
And what was it (you can whisper in that small font if you want).

Another vintage Fender query - this time about 'natural relicing' - now I understand belt buckle rash, dings on the edges and wear points like the arm contour, but why is it I see vintage Fenders for sale which have heavy paintwork damage in fairly inaccessible areas - such as between the bridge and edge of the body - unless an owner has been carelessly changing strings over and over and over again, say on a daily basis, I don't get it - it sort of looks like deliberate damage to me. Any comments from experts on this??
[/quote]

The combination of a thin nitro finish and fairly primative paint technology by todays standards - modern Fenders will never wear in the same fashion as their vintage counterparts- mean that once a small wear patch develops on these old basses , it can easily grow as the laquer and paint around it chip off.

An important thing to remember about old Fenders is that they were never intended to last for 50 or 60 years. No one thought that far into the future, or contemplated that rock and roll would last that long . There was the assumption of built in obsolescence. Indeed, Leo Fender wanted his instruments to have a bolt-on neck so that when they needed refretting he could just sell another replacement neck ( something Fender did right up to the mid-70s, and another thing to be aware of if weighing up a potential purchse and it's authenticity) . I know that the colours for the custom- order Fender instruments in the Sixties were from the same Dupont Paints catalogue that Ford used for their cars at the that time - candy red, shoreline gold, firemist gold. lake placid blue, ect. As you can probably imagine, spraying basses with a few coats of car paint and then just putting nitrocellulose over them never boded well for the longevity of the finishes on these basses .

Edited September 22, 2012 by Dingus

[Musicman20]

Just buy another Bongo before the price rise

[drTStingray]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1348333950' post='1812500']
Just buy another Bongo before the price rise
[/quote]

Lol - well I wouldn't mind a PDN one! Vintage Fender would be a different level of purchase financially and not just yet.

I read a fascinating site about custom colour Fender instruments and quite a lot of bona fide instruments appear to have been painted over the top of sunburst (one of the standard colurs) - theory is they were imperfect paint jobs and cheaper and more cost effective to undercoat and top coat over an existing finish than to start with a bare body - plus they get a mark up for the custom colour - canny guys, eh?

[Dingus]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1348337371' post='1812581']
Lol - well I wouldn't mind a PDN one! Vintage Fender would be a different level of purchase financially and not just yet.

I read a fascinating site about custom colour Fender instruments and quite a lot of bona fide instruments appear to have been painted over the top of sunburst (one of the standard colurs) - theory is they were imperfect paint jobs and cheaper and more cost effective to undercoat and top coat over an existing finish than to start with a bare body - plus they get a mark up for the custom colour - canny guys, eh?
[/quote]

Fender would also get unsold stock in unpopular colours returned from dealers ,and then subsequently resprayed them with more popular finishes that were selling better over the existing colour .

[drTStingray]

Goodness - a decent thickness of paint of some of those beauties then - so much for thin paint finish contributing to tone....... There is also a story that owing to the popularity of the Shadows, the British importers had an amount of new sunburst guitars refin'd in fiesta red as they were more saleable. But don't count as a factory refin..............

[Kiwi]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1348340170' post='1812625']
the British importers had an amount of new sunburst guitars refin'd in fiesta red as they were more saleable. But don't count as a factory refin..............
[/quote]
Custom colours were often sprayed over standard finishes.
[url="http://home.provide.net/~cfh/fenderc.html"]http://home.provide....fh/fenderc.html[/url]

Herbie Flower's '59 Jazz is a good example of that and he bought it in New York.

Fender were NOT about producing high quality. They were about manufacturing to meet a massive demand created by the emergence of rock and roll. Any claims about the genius of Leo or the high standards of quality in old Fenders are questionable in my view. Leo was a very good product designer, not a musician and he designed the instruments with mass production in mind. Part of the reason Fenders are popular is because Fender were able to claim a significantly greater market share than Gibson thanks to that output.

On other threads I've mentioned that the whole vintage bass thing was started by nostalgic baby boomers and the flames of interest were fanned into a blazing inferno of hype by retailers and stockbroker/collectors. My old high school art teacher has a '63 strat which he has had since the late 70's when they were still cheap. It's in wine red tint and all original. Can't begin to think what it's worth now.

The days of being able to invest in a vintage model of instrument are over I think. The market is much more niche and specialised now. Collectors in 80's instruments are still brand loyal and driven by nostalgia but are looking for the ultimate example of a particular model. For example, the ultimate Alembic, Musicman, Steinberger, Yamaha etc.