Vintage Fender Basses - need advice

[Dingus]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1348350315' post='1812738']
Custom colours were often sprayed over standard finishes.
[url="http://home.provide.net/~cfh/fenderc.html"]http://home.provide....fh/fenderc.html[/url]

Herbie Flower's '59 Jazz is a good example of that and he bought it in New York.

Fender were NOT about producing high quality. They were about manufacturing to meet a massive demand created by the emergence of rock and roll. Any claims about the genius of Leo or the high standards of quality in old Fenders are questionable in my view. Leo was a very good product designer, not a musician and he designed the instruments with mass production in mind. Part of the reason Fenders are popular is because Fender were able to claim a significantly greater market share than Gibson thanks to that output.

On other threads I've mentioned that the whole vintage bass thing was started by nostalgic baby boomers and the flames of interest were fanned into a blazing inferno of hype by retailers and stockbroker/collectors. My old high school art teacher has a '63 strat which he has had since the late 70's when they were still cheap. It's in wine red tint and all original. Can't begin to think what it's worth now.

The days of being able to invest in a vintage model of instrument are over I think. The market is much more niche and specialised now. Collectors in 80's instruments are still brand loyal and driven by nostalgia but are looking for the ultimate example of a particular model. For example, the ultimate Alembic, Musicman, Steinberger, Yamaha etc.
[/quote]

According to old musos who had been " on the scene " back in th early 70s,and people I know in the trade in London who I used to talk to back in the day , the first time old Fenders and Gibsons started to be in demand and sell for more than new models here in the U.K was around 1970. People like Clapton had begun championing the older instruments, and everyone else started to follow suit. The Les Paul had been out of production for a few years anyway, and so you had to get an older model until Gibson twigged their mistake and reissued it.

I agree wholeheartedly about questionable quality of many vintage Fenders: I think a lot of their cache comes from the fact that by the mid-70s Fender was by and large producing such poor quality instruments that the older models , however imperfect some may have been , began to be seen as infinitely preferable to the current ones at the time. You are dead right about the days of investing in vintage guitars being pretty much gone ; they were never as good an investment as people seem to think, anyway . I have been buying and selling Fender basses on and off since the mid-1980s and they were never dirt cheap as some people like to think , either in the U.K or especially in the States , where in fact they are even more prized than over here. People don't seem to allow for inflation and other variables. I honestly believe that if you want a bass to play rather than an antique to cherish, you are much are much better of f with a new U.S.A Fender, which are by and large the best they have made in a very long time, maybe ever.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Dingus

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1348353774' post='1812760']
People don't seem to allow for inflation and other variables.
[/quote]

I had noticed this!

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1348353774' post='1812760']
I agree wholeheartedly about questionable quality of many vintage Fenders:
[/quote]
I'm not saying preCBS fenders are bad quality, just that there wasn't any craftsmanship involved and the whole production process was very pragmatic. If anything their pragmatism probably adds to their appeal. But the point you make about the poor quality of the seventies Fenders causing players to reconsider older instruments is a good one but in hindsight wasn't enough to send prices crazy.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1348355290' post='1812777']
I'm not saying preCBS fenders are bad quality, just that there wasn't any craftsmanship involved and the whole production process was very pragmatic. If anything their pragmatism probably adds to their appeal. But the point you make about the poor quality of the seventies Fenders causing people to reconsider older instruments is a good one too.
[/quote]

ironic really- so much electric guitar and bass design and construction followed the fender "craftmanshipless" direction rather than the more crafted direction Gibson were going back at the time - the irony being I guess is that modern music has been defined by these instuments and the way they are produced. There is an irony in people then going back and making "crafted" versions of the same mass produced basses! The whole point of the design was to be cheap and easy to make in a factory... and now we can go out and get a exquisitly crafted hand built version of the same thing too.... bit daft really

[Dingus]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1348355290' post='1812777']
I'm not saying preCBS fenders are bad quality, just that there wasn't any craftsmanship involved and the whole production process was very pragmatic. If anything their pragmatism probably adds to their appeal. But the point you make about the poor quality of the seventies Fenders causing players to reconsider older instruments is a good one but in hindsight wasn't enough to send prices crazy.
[/quote]

Point taken.
I also don't mean that they are poor quality as such, rather that they were factory production guitars made within the constraints of the technology and manufacturing practises of that era rather than instruments whose craftsmanship reflect their current high price Their value comes from their scarcity rather than their substance. My own experience is that you get some good ones , some bad ones and some downright wrecks. The advent of computer- controlled CNC routing ect. has made mass production guitars more consistant, and things like fretwork are usually to a higher standard in modern times. But pre( and many post ) CBS Fenders have an undeniable charm, that's for sure, but just like a classic car, I'd be reluctant to spend a lot of money on one..

The rise in price of vintage basses was largely fueled by increased demand in the U.S.A , Japan and Europe, be it from a combination nostalgic amatures , serious enthusiasts and working professionals who sought definitive versions of Fenders classic designs in an era before the myriad of boutique alternatives we enjoy today. In the 70s you either had a new Fender or else sought out one we would now call vintage . As supply decreased , the vintage mystique grew and prices rose.

Edited September 23, 2012 by Dingus

[Johnnysonic]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1348350315' post='1812738']


Fender were NOT about producing high quality. [/quote] Sorry, but this is absolute nonsense. Do not confuse quality with 'crafstmanship'. Fender were absolutely about producing high quality instruments - Leo wanted to produce guitars for the very top of the market and was determined that jazz players, the most elite, would play his instruments. That they didn't had more to do with the look of, say the Jazzmaster, than its sound or quality.

Leo may have designed his guitars to be put together on a production line by semie-skilled labour, but they wer of the highest quality, designed for leading professionals. True they declined under CBS, and the ones today are poor clones, but you can't blame Leo for thst!!

[Kiwi]

You haven't done your research.

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1348394509' post='1812992']
You haven't done your research.
[/quote]

I think you're very wrong there, and probably picked on the wrong chap. Where's the basis for [i]your[/i] argument? Any guitar books will provide all the info you need about Johns statement, you may want to read some.

[Kiwi]

Before this discends into a polemic argument I'm not saying that Fender produced crap instruments either. But they WERE mass produced. Mass production requires compromise. It's a process optimised for time and cost. Quality is important but not as important as time and cost.

So...let the debate on the quality of craftsmanship and mass production begin.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1348394509' post='1812992']
You haven't done your research.
[/quote]

I think Johnny has probably done more than most.

From what I've read (and that's a lot), Leo was very hands-on when it came to QC, and the workforce were very skilled and loyal.

Edited September 23, 2012 by wateroftyne

[drTStingray]

Quality in production is very much about systems to ensure consistency of output in terms of performance and consistency of product.

From what I've heard and know, the consistency of Fender instruments is very varied so this implies in itself that quality is, or certainly has been, variable to say the least - how many times have I heard people say, you need to try a bunch before you get the right one. This does not demonstrate good quality and smacks of the sort of variability you might expect buying a new car in the 70s, say.

All that said, I have a soft spot for Fender basses and I particularly love these old custom colour basses.

I'm also mindful that these basses were designed, particularly in the case of the Precision, in order to get over the problems of amplifying a double bass which existed at the time - this was in the days of mono music reproduction and rudimentary studio recording techniques - thus the concept and design was based on those parameters, particularly from an electronic point of view. The world in terms of all of this has moved on significantly and it is amazing to me that these anachronisms could be in general use today. Sadly, in some genres their use undermines the music to my mind and 'funky ass synth bass' is far more appropriate. Yes there are people who tell me I should use a pre CBS Fender to play metal - unfortunately they are wrong!!! Far too much nostalgia, far too much 'retro vibe' fashion and far too little common sense I'm afraid.

But I do have a big soft spot for these basses. I also do for original Mini Cooper S cars - I would never subject one to day to day use - just admire for its beauty and use sparingly and with the reverence a near museum piece deserves, if only to preserve it as long as possible. Plus, there are many products which do the job better on a day to day basis IMO. I find it very difficult to have a different view and outlook on bass guitars.

Edited September 23, 2012 by drTStingray

[Kiwi]

Benefit of any doubt is duly given. However I don't care about nostalgia or romanticism. Basic law of project management is that there are ALWAYS trade offs between time vs cost vs quality. It's possible to achieve any two, but the third will be compromised. So given mass production means time and cost are prioritised, the logical conclusion is quality gets compromised. Some questions in my head are;

Was the selection of wood done on the basis of tone, availability of supply or cost per unit?
If the wood was so important (as claimed by so many sellers) what contribution did fullerplast make above and beyond what an 80's JV Squier offered?

I'd love an opportunity to separate the myth from the fact because there seems to be so much bullshit about vintage Fenders given the context they were produced in. If that happens, hopefully I'll learn something in the process.

[wateroftyne]

At the same time, I don't think anyone is comparing the quality of Fenders to ACGs or Foderas, but they are generally good-quality very playable instruments, designed to be easily maintained and last for a long time.

All of the above is good enough for me, but I suppose it depends on your definition of quality.

[drTStingray]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1348396924' post='1813044']
Was the selection of wood done on the basis of tone, availability of supply or cost per unit?
If the wood was so important (as claimed by so many sellers) what contribution did fullerplast make above and beyond what an 80's JV Squier offered?

I'd love an opportunity to separate the myth from the fact because there seems to be so much bullshit about vintage Fenders given the context they were produced in. If that happens, hopefully I'll learn something in the process.
[/quote]

+1 - the situation with wood choice is very interesting - and particularly the change from ash to alder in the 50s - from what I've read, this could have been based on production efficiency (less finish and paint prep required).

[NJE]

Really interesting topic this but a subject matter that will go around and around for ever more I feel.

My dad was a teenager when pop and rock really kicked off and remembers seeing some of the first Fender instruments brought into this country. He remebers them very well (owned a couple) and compared to what was available on the market they were in another league in terms of quality and playability. He said they were like something from the future. They were well engineered instruments and incredibly well made and when I asked him he said they were no worse than a lot of Gibsons that had higher price tags. I am sure some slipped through the net and there were bad instruments but I have played a 59 strat and it was a great instrument and better made than my old 2011 USA Jazz so Leo and his team must have been doing soemthing right.

I have a huge love/hate relationship with Fender, I have owned a few and played so many. Its already been said that they are mass produced and as such quality issues slip under the radar in mass production. Equally you will get some exceptional instruments where everything comes together and just works so well for some reason.

There must be a reason why so many incredible musicians buy and use these old vintage instruments. When clapton went out and bought those old strats they weren't vintage and there was probably no romance linked with them, he probably just thought they were better quality instruments and thats why he used them. I saw a video of John Mayers bass player who bought a 60's Precision when he was 15, it was probably nothing special to have a 60's P back then but in all his years playing with bands and doing sessions its the best sound ing bass he has ever used.

Maybe the people who own play and love their vintage fenders have searched low and high to find 'the one' guitar or bass for them or maybe they got lucky and just found one of those massed produced instruments where everything just came together. Maybe the quality of the batch of wood was better that day, maybe the chap on the router was having a good day back in 63, the pickups were wound well etc....but there must be something to it.

I think we can probably just all agree that Fender make some bloody awful instruments, always have and always will, but sometimes produce absolute diamonds. I have had 2 jazzes that were crap, awful basses but I have a Roscoe Beck now which I believe is as good if not better than my old hand made Overwater, its just sublime.

In terms of the original point of this thread, I dont believe that vintage Fenders will make great investment opportunities, but I can think of worse things to put your money in and I dont think the prices will go down. I have seen the prices of 80's Fenders go crazy recently, and I remeber in 2001 I missed teh opportunity to buy 2 70's Fenders in amazing condition for less than £800 so the 30+ year old basses are going up in value no doubt.

Search for a great old Fender that is just out of this world, enjoy it, gig it, love it and look after it and it will probably reward you in more ways than an increase in value over the years you have it.

[chris_b]

5 pages.... too much to read.

If you want to buy a Fender bass for investment purposes decide the period, the investment tern and your budget, then do your homework.

Unless you’re very, very lucky the big gains have already been made in Pre CBS and 60’s instruments. 70’s and 80’s instruments are now the best priced collectables but you’ll have to keep them for a decade or more to make the highest returns.

Original condition is king. Any mods will destroy the value. I’d guess that the oldest, most original instrument with the least wear would return the best value.

Always get one with an original case. Custom colours used to be more valuable because there were less of them; although that probably doesn't hold true for later decades. Don't take it out for the occasional gig; you shouldn’t be risking damage to your investment. If you want to gig a vintage bass get one that has been refinished. Player wear probably won't affect the value of one of those because the refin has already done the damage.

Know your market and know your instruments.

[Kiwi]

I don't think Fender cared too much about the wood at the time. It was JUST a material. The weight, mass, density wasn't a concern because there was no precedent at the time. OK so they could have been in a position to be discerning, for example, deliberately selecting old growth ash or alder or maple. But the level of awareness about what specifically makes a good bass wasn't around then. I think they were just taking whatever was available and, so long as it satisfied the expectations of the public at the time, it was good enough.

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1348399931' post='1813106']
I don't think Fender cared too much about the wood at the time. It was JUST a material. The weight, mass, density wasn't a concern because there was no precedent at the time. OK so they could have been in a position to be discerning, for example, deliberately selecting old growth ash or alder or maple. But the level of awareness about what specifically makes a good bass wasn't around then. I think they were just taking whatever was available and, so long as it satisfied the expectations of the public at the time, it was good enough.
[/quote]

I think you should go do some reading, as you seem to have lots to say on a subject that you appear to have little knowledge on You also edit your responses every 5 minutes, I'm guessing, as an administrator, you do realise that people get emailed your original responses don't you? As you said in a previous quote, 80's collectors stuff seems to be your thing, judging by that comment, and your choice of bass, perhaps your level of knowledge lies elsewhere. Nothing personal, I'm just trying to save you from saying something else thats daft, quit while you're only slighty behind i'd say.

Just do your homework, thats all I'm trying to say.

[Kiwi]

So back up the points that you believe are invalid. Yes I'm an admin and I've edited my post for clarity. But I enter this topic being TOTALLY up for being shot down. Just feel some clarity is due, thats all.

BRING IT ON.

Edited September 23, 2012 by Kiwi
Enlightenment

[Musicman20]

Touchy subject! I had times when I considered saving for a nice late 60s P, but to be honest, my 2009 American Standard is the perfect P bass, and I've played a fair amount (although I am not a vintage enthusiast so my knowledge is limited).

I don't trust the market on vintage instruments and I haven't got the time to research it, so I think for now ill stick to the modern Fenders and the innovations from Musicman.

The one thing that winds me up is that you still have to search for a good Fender...at £1050 that is ridiculous.

[Kiwi]

All I am asking for are examples where Leo Fender sacrificed time and cost in the interests of quality.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1348401612' post='1813134']
All I am asking for are examples where Leo Fender sacrificed time and cost in the interests of quality.
[/quote]

Wow... Leo certainly rattled your cage, Kiwi :-)

[chris_b]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1348401612' post='1813134']
....All I am asking for are examples where Leo Fender sacrificed time and cost in the interests of quality....
[/quote]

OK, I'll bite.

When Fender first started out, the Broadcaster was sold without a truss rod. The guys who knew said it was a mistake but Leo (he didn't always listen to advice) said he'd replace any necks that came back warped. After he replaced a load he decided he was wrong and started fitting truss rods.

[Dingus]

[quote name='Johnnysonic' timestamp='1348394358' post='1812984']
Sorry, but this is absolute nonsense. Do not confuse quality with 'crafstmanship'. Fender were absolutely about producing high quality instruments - Leo wanted to produce guitars for the very top of the market and was determined that jazz players, the most elite, would play his instruments. That they didn't had more to do with the look of, say the Jazzmaster, than its sound or quality.

Leo may have designed his guitars to be put together on a production line by semie-skilled labour, but they wer of the highest quality, designed for leading professionals. True they declined under CBS, and the ones today are poor clones, but you can't blame Leo for thst!!
[/quote]

Fender basses were the highest quality instruments available in their day, bar none. Until Alembic came along in the late 60s / early seventies ( albeit with a radically different design concept) who could rival Fender basses for sound and playability ?

A big part of the genius of Leo Fenders designs was that they were fantastic instruments without the need for the highly skilled and detailed craftmanship needed to produce traditional instruments such as violins or better quality acoustic guitars. I would have to disagree, however, that todays Fenders are neccesarily poor clones. I've played countless pre-CBS Fender basses and whilst some were very good basses ( and very beautiful objects), as a working instrument a well-chosen bass from the current Fender range could easily compete in terms of sound, and will almost certainly be superior in terms of playability and durability. If you want to collect antiques then be my guest, but if you want a bass to play then a new one ( providing you choose the right one ) arguably has more to offer, especially if you look at some of the great work the Fender Custom Shop is doing. I'm not saying this to be provocative or denigrate anybodies vintage collection - I think some of these basses are absolutely exquisite- but the simple fact is that Fender basses are fairly straightforward instruments, when all is said and done.

[JTUK]

I can quite well believe Fenders were ahead of the competition by a good few miles when they got established in the 60's...
ever picked up some of the old Gibsons and Burn's planks.. ...??
but I've also tried a few pretty rank pre CBS basses with quite ridiculous price tags...
Sold a 70's Jazz which was a dog...

Fender were quite capable of putting together a decent bass that stands the test of time, but that is not to say you couldn't improve on it..
There is a whole industry of Fender clones that sprang up because of that...

For me, I'd look into what Fender can produce now and I would expect a long search....but they aren't alone in having a few issues.
I've been thro a rack of about 50 basses in a large shop..and struggled to be inspired by the playability of any....
and maybe that reflects on the shop... but is it reasonable for a shop to have to spend time setting them up better...?? er... no, for a £1400 plus bass

I may be picky ....but I'll pay a premium to be very happy... but sometimes you may have to settle.
I don't think that is good enough today...