WalMan Posted September 25, 2012 Author Share Posted September 25, 2012 I suppose I am just getting old. When I started out the first "proper" (as opposed to school) band I joined at 17 - and I'm still gigging with the drummer all these years later - was playing WMC's at least once or twice a week. Five piece band. Fun & a good learning experience. The last ten days was in Lanzarote and as I said at the outset it was nigh on impossible to find somewhere that was what I would define a truely live music as opposed to a bloke & some CD's. I'm afraid I didn't walk - the inertia of an AI bracelet bit and anyway there was nowhere different to walk to. My drummers other band has been through vocalist hiatus, partly because she found she could go out with tapes or as a duo and demand the same money, but keep a lot more. Punters generally don't seem care, and I suspect with the advent of Pop Idol & XFactor are used to what is in effect a BT vocalist (shoot me if I'm wrong but I never really watch these if I can possibly help it), we are just inured to it. Perhaps The Voice tried a bit more with the backing band. As above I am not sure that venues pay that much less, if at all, for the BT man. It's just the line of least resistance and they don't have to worry about musicians and all their noisy gear. It's just a different age now for the resort entertainment, sadly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottomE Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 Thing is - if you get into/form a decent band that plays music people want to hear you will always get gigs. I think this has always been the case. If you are in it for the money this is even more appropriate. When i hear of bands that are finding trouble getting gigs its normally because they don't recognise what they are doing wrong - its easier to blame landlords, duos or the price of cheese than actually take a look at what they are doing. I'll leave you with this from Wiki... "A duo still performs under the name of Black Lace, but neither current band member was in the group when it was formed or when it enjoyed its biggest chart success" Now thats depressing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 [quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1348573963' post='1815328'] Thing is - if you get into/form a decent band that plays music people want to hear you will always get gigs. I think this has always been the case. If you are in it for the money this is even more appropriate. When i hear of bands that are finding trouble getting gigs its normally because they don't recognise what they are doing wrong - its easier to blame landlords, duos or the price of cheese than actually take a look at what they are doing. I'll leave you with this from Wiki... "A duo still performs under the name of Black Lace, but neither current band member was in the group when it was formed or when it enjoyed its biggest chart success" Now thats depressing. [/quote] There are many many bands from yesteryear who carry the name but no original members..and some make a pretty decent living out of buying those rights and performing the one hit. We had one on our bill recently and they were ok... or pretty good. they had a late afternoon slot but I would think they had the headline wages..even though they weren't booked as such. hmmm..have to up our fee... Most 50's or 60's bands would actuallly be dead or couldn't play now anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalMan Posted September 25, 2012 Author Share Posted September 25, 2012 [quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1348573963' post='1815328'] Thing is - if you get into/form a decent band that plays music people want to hear you will always get gigs. I think this has always been the case. If you are in it for the money this is even more appropriate. When i hear of bands that are finding trouble getting gigs its normally because they don't recognise what they are doing wrong - its easier to blame landlords, duos or the price of cheese than actually take a look at what they are doing. I'll leave you with this from Wiki... "A duo still performs under the name of Black Lace, but neither current band member was in the group when it was formed or when it enjoyed its biggest chart success" Now thats depressing. [/quote] True. I think where I was initially coming from was that where we were staying there was just nothing but the BT entertainers. That was probably dictated largely by the fact that for most venues it was easier to have this for an hour(ish) long "show". Perhaps such entertainers in such resorts are becoming the equivalent of stand ups in big cities, where they buzz around to a few venues a night - nice and easy in/out in that it's largely "here's my backing tracks, where do I plug them in?" and they're away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 I guess its also about the environment. Lanzarote is probably going to attract a certain type of customer base that may be generally less discerning where live music is concerned. My biker brother and his mates, for instance, would hate a BT band and would probably throw things but, as they would never go on holiday to Lanzarote, the risk of injury to Ricky Coo Coo and Germaine is small!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Dave Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 I wouldn't watch a backing tape gig and I wouldn't watch public karaoke which I think backing tape gigs encourage. Not interested. Having said that - when I get to 55 , if my employers will let me go early , we'll be off to live in the Canaries where I'd quite happily consider doing a backing tape in a bar gig once a week or so to supplement my pension and keep my hand in. I expect my current stage persona would have to go...... 'Now then , you sad crowd of cnuts' etc. Might not go down well with the grey euro mob !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlfer Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 What does your biker brother think of jazz Bilbo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Dave Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1348577051' post='1815392'] I guess its also about the environment. Lanzarote is probably going to attract a certain type of customer [/quote] It does. They're called 'holidaymakers'. Ignorant , philistine plebs , obviously ! Be so much better to walk into a bar on your jollys and find 7 miserable old tossers in leather elbow patches playing moondance for 3 hours with their back to the audience , applauding each others extended solos mid song and looking really pleased with themselves! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bremen Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 [quote name='Dr.Dave' timestamp='1348577881' post='1815413'] It does. They're called 'holidaymakers'. Ignorant , philistine plebs , obviously ! Be so much better to walk into a bar on your jollys and find 7 miserable old tossers in leather elbow patches playing moondance for 3 hours with their back to the audience , applauding each others extended solos mid song and looking really pleased with themselves! [/quote] Lanzarote has the power to make Guardian readers do Karaoke. *cough* so I'm told... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottomE Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 I don't think its limited to the Canary Islands. There are plenty of insipid duos around this way too. There may be a case for taking some kind of legal action against the venue when the acts are described as "Live Music". Some of these duos must be using about 80% tapes/midi files and actually playing only 20% of what you can hear. Maybe a trading standards issue? Fasle description? Not fit for purpose. That said, I'd rather concentrate on fine tuning our show and set list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4 Strings Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 [quote name='WalMan' timestamp='1348573143' post='1815308'] As above I am not sure that venues pay that much less, if at all, for the BT man. It's just the line of least resistance and they don't have to worry about musicians and all their noisy gear. [/quote] Its the other way round, we charge more. Our Motown band - £600 for 3 girls and tracks or £1,100 for 3 girls and the 5 piece band. Trouble is, why would the venue take the band, everyone prefers the live band (sax player - Andrew Linham - is sublime!) and always comments etc but who's £400 will it be? Certainly BTs have become more acceptable since the advent of the dreaded X-Factor, but I suppose that's not the only damage it has caused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Dave Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 [quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1348579062' post='1815431'] There may be a case for taking some kind of legal action against the venue when the acts are described as "Live Music". Some of these duos must be using about 80% tapes/midi files and actually playing only 20% of what you can hear. Maybe a trading standards issue? Fasle description? Not fit for purpose. [/quote] Don't agree with that. Even 20% is enough to differentiate between somebody playing/singing and a bloody D J , karaoke or piped music etc. Besides - a 4 piece band might be using a recorded synth part and a click track or similar , where would you draw the line? Someone's in a bar singing live and playing a guitar. That's live music. The backing tapes are on top of that. I wouldn't stay and watch but that's just me. As a description of the entertainment going on inside a blackboard by the door saying 'live music' seems OK to me. Most I've seen also show a poster of a fat tosser in a sparkly jacket with a jason king moustache and 'Saint' put in front of there surname so I don't think anybody would be confused by what they're getting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 [quote name='karlfer' timestamp='1348577833' post='1815409'] What does your biker brother think of jazz Bilbo? [/quote] He would never listen to it by choice but he would probably not walk out. He does go to a pub that has regular Jazz nights but that is because his wife works behind the bar. From what he says he seems to enjoy it in a kind of borderline ambivalent way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4 Strings Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 [quote name='Dr.Dave' timestamp='1348582949' post='1815515'] Don't agree with that. Even 20% is enough to differentiate between somebody playing/singing and a bloody D J , karaoke or piped music etc. Besides - a 4 piece band might be using a recorded synth part and a click track or similar , where would you draw the line? >>>>As soon as someone is performing live it becomes live, even I suppose, to the mixing dj (we had one at Reading, was it?, this year). Someone's in a bar singing live and playing a guitar. That's live music. The backing tapes are on top of that. I wouldn't stay and watch but that's just me. [/quote] Not sure anyone stays to watch, that sort of thing is just background music with a little more repartee with the audience than a dj isn't it? Creates a sort of entertaining atmosphere as opposed to providing something to engage and watch, conversation normally being more interesting to the point of no applause at the end of songs etc. But that's fine too, isn't it? We offer dinner jazz for meal functions, everything is live but careful not to upset the meal atmos and conversation by being too loud. When there'a a little more money around hopefully people won't mind paying a bit more for live music. At the moment the next stage is not to bother with the one man and his guitar and tracks and just pipe the music, if it makes more for the bar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevB Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 I have this vision of Bottom E coming on stage and unplugging Rush on their next tour because they have gone beyond his guidelines of acceptable levels of samples and pre-recorded triggered bits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4 Strings Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 [quote name='KevB' timestamp='1348586218' post='1815588'] I have this vision of Bottom E coming on stage and unplugging Rush on their next tour because they have gone beyond his guidelines of acceptable levels of samples and pre-recorded triggered bits [/quote] After Bilbo has walked out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottomE Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 [quote name='KevB' timestamp='1348586218' post='1815588'] I have this vision of Bottom E coming on stage and unplugging Rush on their next tour because they have gone beyond his guidelines of acceptable levels of samples and pre-recorded triggered bits [/quote] Yeah watch out Geddy with your cheating foot pedal bass synth thing, and you Alex with all those effects and delays. Neal might be ok until he triggers a sample and then i'd have to chin him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raymondo Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 [quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1348573963' post='1815328'] Thing is - if you get into/form a decent band that plays music people want to hear you will always get gigs. I think this has always been the case. If you are in it for the money this is even more appropriate. When i hear of bands that are finding trouble getting gigs its normally because they don't recognise what they are doing wrong - its easier to blame landlords, duos or the price of cheese than actually take a look at what they are doing. I'll leave you with this from Wiki... [b]"A duo still performs under the name of Black Lace,[/b] but neither current band member was in the group when it was formed or when it enjoyed its biggest chart success" Now thats depressing. colin gibb (forget his real name!....ex Black lace ,replaced me in the band when I left Tenerife...he also does a BLACK LAce act with BTs [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raymondo Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1348577051' post='1815392'] I guess its also about the environment. Lanzarote is probably going to attract a certain type of customer base that may be generally less discerning where live music is concerned. [b]My biker brother and his mates, for instance, would hate a BT band and would probably throw things [/b]but, as they would never go on holiday to Lanzarote, the risk of injury to Ricky Coo Coo and Germaine is small!! [/quote] We play a bikers headquarters pub in Coventry regularly and they all love the live band rock stuff.. but when we played their festival earlier this year they had a guy playing guitar and singing to backing tracks,on in the bar for the afternoon and (1) he was fabulous and (2) everybody loved it! No body is right or wrong here ....it's just providing a service for the general(and in the bikers case not so general) public. Edited September 25, 2012 by Raymondo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalMan Posted September 25, 2012 Author Share Posted September 25, 2012 [quote name='Dr.Dave' timestamp='1348577881' post='1815413'] It does. They're called 'holidaymakers'. Ignorant , philistine plebs , obviously ! [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Raymondo' timestamp='1348599082' post='1815845'] We play a bikers headquarters pub in Covemnry regularly and they all love the live band rock stuff.. but when we played their festival earlier this year they had a guy playing guitar and singing to backing tracks,on in the bar for the afternoon and (1) he was fabulous and (2) everybody loved it! No body is right or wrong here ....it's just providing a service for the general(and in the bikers case not so general) public. [/quote] That's the long and short of it! Out in the islands you have holidaymakers looking for some (any) entertainment after a hard day sunbathing and drinking. The bars tend to be pretty small and it makes sense to employ one man and his BT, not to mention to try to appeal to the lowest common denominator. That is not to say that bands can't do OK because some do go and get gigs out there. My understanding is that there is quite a decent demand for bands on the main land, throughout Europe. Even in this country there is still an interest in live music - but there is a recession going on that, together with the smoking ban and our over-zealous attitude to appeasing anyone who complains about noise (or anything else) regardless of how unreasonable they are means that a lot of the live music scene is struggling right now..... Edited September 25, 2012 by peteb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 [quote name='KevB' timestamp='1348586218' post='1815588'] I have this vision of Bottom E coming on stage and unplugging Rush on their next tour because they have gone beyond his guidelines of acceptable levels of samples and pre-recorded triggered bits [/quote] The difference is that, unless they have changed since I last looked, it is all played/triggered in real time and not a button pressed at the start of the track and then played along to verbatum until it finishes. In reality, this kind of stuff has no presence in my listening/viewing as I find it a complete turn off. I would much rather listen to a guy/girl with a guitar/piano etc and no BTs. But I don't got to bars in Lanzarote so why would anyone care what I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevB Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 I know what you mean Bilbo and to some extent I agree but it's all on a slippery slope and it's where to draw the line. I'm sure some sequences by bands are triggered at the start of songs and the drummer has to work to a click track to make sure they are in the right place when some fancy noises appear at a point during the song. Others are triggered once but in 'real time' and then forgotten about and others, like midi bass pedals as used by Rush, Yes, Genesis and whoever should rightly be considered an instrument in themselves, they are no different in that mode to an oversized short keyboard that is being played 'fingerstyle' but with a foot. Hit the wrong pedal and you'll get as bum a note as hitting the wrong string, I've done it often enough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 If i'm fooled in to thinking a performance is entirely live (and I would include live triggers in that) then I don't care if they're playing to a click/BT - obviously I don't care because I don't know. E.G watching a band play to a click with some BVs on a BT, and someone miming the BVs - I probably wouldn't be able to tell, and it would be infinitely more entertaining than watching the lead singer sing along to a BT on their own. You'd still get to see the musicians do their thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1348667926' post='1816673'] If i'm fooled in to thinking a performance is entirely live (and I would include live triggers in that) then I don't care if they're playing to a click/BT - obviously I don't care because I don't know. E.G watching a band play to a click with some BVs on a BT, and someone miming the BVs - I probably wouldn't be able to tell, and it would be infinitely more entertaining than watching the lead singer sing along to a BT on their own. You'd still get to see the musicians do their thing. [/quote] FWIW - I have it on good authority that a lot of metal bands playing the big stages are using backing tracks with additional BVs & keyboards live! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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