"Live Music" Entertainment

[Gust0o]

[quote name='shizznit' timestamp='1348485456' post='1814067']
She told me that the punters prefer 'one man and his CD' type acts and not live bands, which is fair enough.[/quote]

Crikey, who are these punters? I've often wondered if they're mistaking indifference for approval. I suspect some will like it - but I've never seen many people getting into the spirit of this kind of show (well, blood alcohol levels notwithstanding) - simply getting on with the pint at hand.

[WalMan]

[quote name='Gust0o' timestamp='1348678038' post='1816865']
Crikey, who are these punters? I've often wondered if they're mistaking indifference for approval. I suspect some will like it - but I've never seen many people getting into the spirit of this kind of show (well, blood alcohol levels notwithstanding) - simply getting on with the pint at hand.
[/quote]Is this again the X-Factor / BGT / [i]possibly even[/i] Karaoke effect, in that punters come to expect to see a lone vocalist performing to a backing track on an empty stage?

I don't know, but perhaps I should give my next holiday destination some better thought

[BottomE]

[quote name='WalMan' timestamp='1348678637' post='1816876']
I don't know, but perhaps I should give my next holiday destination some better thought
[/quote]

Most of the Med is saturated by this type of thing unfortunately. USA has some great music cities. France has some really good open air gigs in the summer.

[peteb]

[quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1348679456' post='1816882']
Most of the Med is saturated by this type of thing unfortunately. USA has some great music cities. France has some really good open air gigs in the summer.
[/quote]
As does (mainland) Spain and Italy, especially the Tuscany region from what I understand.....

[4 Strings]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1348679707' post='1816888']
As does (mainland) Spain and Italy, especially the Tuscany region from what I understand.....
[/quote]

I suppose places where holidaying Brits are not.

[Bilbo]

I guess its just us Brits that will settle for these bastardised monstrosities

You can fool some of the people all of the time.....

[Dr.Dave]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1348665280' post='1816633']
The difference is that, unless they have changed since I last looked, it is all played/triggered in real time and not a button pressed at the start of the track and then played along to verbatum until it finishes.
[/quote]

Ahhhhhhhhh....... now I get it. It's not the button's marked 'start' you object to , it's just the one's marked 'play' !!

[JellyKnees]

We use backing for drums with our originals band for playing live, mainly because we haven't been able to find a good enough drummer (yet - we're still looking)... it's a compromise solution, I'd much rather have the real thing, but if we hadn't gone down this route we wouldn't have done any gigs at all (I'd rather do what we do than play with a mediocre drummer).

It does give us some flexibility to add a few extra sample, keyboard sounds etc as well...ideally we would have another person to do some of these things too, but again it comes down to practicalities, logistics etc. It also gives us the ability to control volumes and play in some smaller venues (it also means that we don't have to wait while the drummer skins up again...)

FWIW, we haven't had any negative comments from any audiences or other bands that we have played with, they've generally seemed pretty receptive to what we do, but then I've spent a lot of time programming the backing stuff to make it sound interesting and convincing.

[KevB]

I have to say I was pleasantly surprised on my recent trip to Skiathos that in one resort where I went to a BBQ there was a full band playing (drums/guitar/bass/keys player who doubled on sax with guitarist and/or bassist singing). I noticed they were all very young and probably doing it for beer money. Definitely not the norm in Med hol locations. Mind you the 'one man and a cd player' approach isn't new - another charity gig I saw had various people turning up and doing a short set. One of them was an old German fella who got up with a little barrel organ round his neck , fed the bit of paper in and proceeded to sing over it as he turned the handle, sort of 18th century kareoke!

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Dr.Dave' timestamp='1348736145' post='1817424']


Ahhhhhhhhh....... now I get it. It's not the button's marked 'start' you object to , it's just the one's marked 'play' !!
[/quote]

Missed the point. It is the difference between 'playing' the samples and having them played for you by a machine. If you start the sample and stop it in real time as part of your performance, it is no different to hitting a cymbal and stopping it; the musicians are responsible for the noise and where it occurs in the performance. If you start the tape and play along with it, and will crash and burn if you don't do exactly the same thing every time, it is no different to playing along with a Jamey Aebersold cd in your bedroom and you are a slave to it. Bores me rigid.

A great example woiudl be Bill Bruford's Earthworks 'Up North' (look it up on youtube)., He is playing samples on a Simmons kit and it is a really interesting use oif the technology of the day. If the riffs he was playing were on a tape instead, that would suck.

Unless I am missing something, Rush don't play along with tapes, they trigger stuff as they play, be that with a keyboard, bass pedal or whatever. I have no problem with that. But playing along with a recording that contains massive chunks of pre-recorded stuff is [cough] a bit naff, innit? Imagine going to see play where a lone actor performs his lines to a pre-recorded version of the play; a kind of 'Shakespeare Minus One'. It would suck all the life out of it.

[Dr.Dave]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1348738787' post='1817487']
Missed the point. It is the difference between 'playing' the samples and having them played for you by a machine. If you start the sample and stop it in real time as part of your performance, it is no different to hitting a cymbal and stopping it; the musicians are responsible for the noise and where it occurs in the performance. If you start the tape and play along with it, and will crash and burn if you don't do exactly the same thing every time, it is no different to playing along with a Jamey Aebersold cd in your bedroom and you are a slave to it. Bores me rigid.

A great example woiudl be Bill Bruford's Earthworks 'Up North' (look it up on youtube)., He is playing samples on a Simmons kit and it is a really interesting use oif the technology of the day. If the riffs he was playing were on a tape instead, that would suck.

Unless I am missing something, Rush don't play along with tapes, they trigger stuff as they play, be that with a keyboard, bass pedal or whatever. I have no problem with that. But playing along with a recording that contains massive chunks of pre-recorded stuff is [cough] a bit naff, innit? Imagine going to see play where a lone actor performs his lines to a pre-recorded version of the play; a kind of 'Shakespeare Minus One'. It would suck all the life out of it.
[/quote]

I've not missed the point , mate. I just recognise it as a very thin one - and anyway it's an even finer line you're drawing.

Cast to point - Mate of mine needed to pay the mortgage so started doing a solo guitar vocal with backing tapes. He did everything on those tapes (bar a couple of basslines I did because I was round his gaff) bass , guitars , keys , even - get this - proper miced up drums. Alll recorded in his garage with his own studio gear. Just to put the icing on - he even did a couple of tunes he wrote himself , and thereby took some of his own music to an audience he could never have reached otherwise. Because of th money he made he was able to continue writing and recording his own songs.

What's he done wrong?? What's he done that makes him any less of a musician? What he's done is make a few bob by entertaining more folk than he normally does!!

You might do a double take here but I happen to agree with a lot of what you say re, covers bands , trib bands , and now this. I totally respect your consistent line which is always to encourage new music - art rather than craft. Can't see how anyone could knock that. Trouble is , you tend to do it by discouraging other forms of entertainment and I can't - for the life of me - see why.

[Bilbo]

Because I am a miserable ol' barsteward

Seriously, though, it is because I am an idealist. I have no doubt whatsoever that my 'values' are self-defeating and the 'real world' doesn't work like I would want it too. I would easily be able to get out there and do a backing tapes thing (I have the kit to do it), or join a tribute band or do 'those' covers in order to increase my 'market share' etc but I just can't do it 'spiritually' (I can't think of a better way to articulate it). Like you implied, my polarised views comes over as overly concrete on here when, in reality, I am much more tolerant of they ways that others function in the world of music. But, if you can't be an idealist on an internet forum, where else, in this day and age, can you be?

Besides, someone has to do it

[thumperbob 2002]

I once was in a band that used drums on tape. Our drummer left and we couldnt find another one so ( this was the 80s ) as I had my own studio we had a pal of mine come in ( real good drummer- later had massive success in a band as a singer ) and put down the tracks.

Done- we had a drummer for that period where we had loads of gigs so could sort the gigs without panicking about a drummer.

One night- might have been the first gig- on the encore " the sun aint gonna shine anymore"Walker bros-- the tape machine f**ked up.

So I had to play drums and bass. Bum,bum bum- crack- bum,bum bum-crack......" loneliness- is a "

It was a first for me and I still laugh about it now.

[Bilbo]

But you usually get a mediocre singer doing the same old.......

I mnea, when was the last tme you saw Ronnie James Dio doing a BT gig in Lanzarote?

[WalMan]

I [i]think[/i] that is sort of where I was/am coming from with this. It was a different face doing much the same set to BT's that were probably a CD, but a CD of average MIDI using average soundsets. Fine for the punter who probably just hears a bunch of choons they know - how many times did I hear Mack the [i]feckin'[/i] Knife in 10 days - but the averageness of it got to me

[peteb]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1348771090' post='1818051']
But you usually get a mediocre singer doing the same old.......

I mnea, when was the last tme you saw Ronnie James Dio doing a BT gig in Lanzarote?
[/quote]
A mate of mine is an excellent, much in demand singer but a few years ago he was was living out in Tenerife doing a solo act with BTs for a living......

[ironside1966]

People who don't like Solo acts will never go and see them and just assume they are all rubbish.
They are many average solo singers out there just like there are many average bands. But it is OK to be average. keep music free and not elitist.

[4 Strings]

I think I understand where Bilbo is coming from, we were booked for a 'Tribute Night' and, to be honest, many of the other acts were poor. We were the only act without BTs, our sax player was infuriated by the whole thing. After his years of study and extremely hard work in becoming little short of an elite sax player, working just as hard to promote his own quartet with original music among a number of other projects to see people being paid for the display of so little talent and heavy reliance on other people's for a, frankly, poor act it was a little too much for him.

How could he find mediocre singing and performance to off-the-shelf tracks entertaining? The 'real world' sees the punters seeming to lap it up, I see people trying to make a living, the venue sees a booking fee less than a fifth of ours. Our sax player would rather have been anywhere else. He's not a musical snob, just knows what it takes to be a talented professional.

[Bilbo]

Eggsactly. I guess it would be like turning up at the National Portrait Gallery and seeing a load of painting by numbers pictures. Just because someone else likes them doesn't help you if you expect something more.

I'm going to start another thread

[Dr.Dave]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1348771090' post='1818051']
But you usually get a mediocre singer doing the same old.......

I mnea, when was the last tme you saw Ronnie James Dio doing a BT gig in Lanzarote?
[/quote]

I saw a backing track bloke knock out a brilliant 'Butterfly Ball' in Puerto Del Carmen , then announce to his audience of largely non-rock fans (by the look and age of them) that if they liked the song they should ' broaden your minds - check out the late Ronnie Dio and his music'

Maybe some of them did.

Attack that , then !

[ironside1966]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1348818513' post='1818555']
I think I understand where Bilbo is coming from, we were booked for a 'Tribute Night' and, to be honest, many of the other acts were poor. We were the only act without BTs, our sax player was infuriated by the whole thing. After his years of study and extremely hard work in becoming little short of an elite sax player, working just as hard to promote his own quartet with original music among a number of other projects to see people being paid for the display of so little talent and heavy reliance on other people's for a, frankly, poor act it was a little too much for him.

How could he find mediocre singing and performance to off-the-shelf tracks entertaining? The 'real world' sees the punters seeming to lap it up, I see people trying to make a living, the venue sees a booking fee less than a fifth of ours. Our sax player would rather have been anywhere else. He's not a musical snob, just knows what it takes to be a talented professional.
[/quote]



That's about the quality of the acts not about using backing tracks.

If you take away the excitement and energy of the band I find a lot of real band singers lacking, they can be just as bad if not worse than many cheap solo acts.

Edited September 28, 2012 by ironside1966

[spinynorman]

During the Jubilee weekend I got dragged into a pub which had a girl singer with a laptop and one active speaker. We've played there in the past, but it really is too small for a band, and they get hassle from neighbours and the council about the noise. The girl was a good singer, used the mic well, moved well, looked the part and engaged with the punters without being overbearing. It's not something I'd want a lot of, but if it helps the pub stay in business, I don't see a problem.

At the other end of the scale, I went to a "Black Country Night Out" where a BT girl was singing songs not obviously Black Country in origin, but aimed at the baby-boom-after-WW1 generation. Early on she said she was going to sing something for everyone, and I really wanted to shout out "Can you do some Rage Against the Machine for me, love?" but I bit my tongue. Almost off.

[Doddy]

Just out of interest,while many people are happy to see a singer perform with all of the music on
track,how many would be satisfied to see a band perform with all of the vocals on track?

[Dr.Dave]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1348841907' post='1819011']
Just out of interest,while many people are happy to see a singer perform with all of the music on
track,how many would be satisfied to see a band perform with all of the vocals on track?
[/quote]

Firstly - singers with B T's don't make me happy - I just don't think they're doing much wrong if other folk are entertained by them.

Secondly - a lot of 'personal appearance' type gigs are done by singers miming to their own backing tape. It wouldn;t float my boat but - again - if the punters that are there are happy , who is anyone to say it's wrong.

Something being crap doesn't make it wrong.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Dr.Dave' timestamp='1348842360' post='1819022']
Something being crap doesn't make it wrong.
[/quote]

No, but it does make it crap. But why do people have a problem if I call it as I see it? Infinite tolerance of mediocrity and the uninspired is what makes 'live music' a dubious attraction for many.