Blimey it's big!

[Fat Rich]

Picked this up last night, first time I've played an upright and I'm amazed at how physical it is:

[IMG]http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/xx159/richardmatthews_photos/forum%20stuff/uprightandJazz_zps3865b6c8.jpg[/IMG]

Makes my usual bass look like a toy! I had a few quick goes on it, I'd heard that it's like learning a new instrument but I don't seem to be having too much trouble transferring some walking lines onto it so far. Early days though!

I'm going to get a few lessons so I don't pick up too many bad habits... meanwhile I've a few questions if you don't mind indulging an idiot.

1. How delicate is this thing? Is there a right way of lifting / carrying it? It came in a canvas bag, I'm thinking I should probably get something that'll protect it a bit better.

2. How hard should I be plucking the strings? I had a quick go at Spencer.b's house when I picked it up, he said to pluck harder and the bass seemed to come alive... but will I damage it if I play too hard?

3. I've had a look at some teachers and some Youtube vids that seem to advocate the use of a bow, partly to help improve intonation. Is this really necessary? I don't have a bow and I'd no intention of playing with one, just to bash out some simple walking lines and play my usual rubbish.

4. Did a quick search on here for learning material, so far come up with Ed Friedland's DVD, Rufus Reid's DVD, Modern Walking Bass Techniques by Mike Richmond, Beginning Scales by Neil Tarlton, Essential Techniques for Acoustic Bass by Todd Philips. Any good? Any other suggestions?

Thanks in advance!

[Silvia Bluejay]

Congrats! Well jel!!!! I so want one too

I don't think it's necessary to learn to bow in order to learn to play double bass - I can't bow to save my life but I'm doing progress on the upright nevertheless.
I'm sure you know that there is a special technique for plucking a double bass - you shouldn't apply the plucking style you use on your bass guitar, or you'll risk cramps and tendon problems.

I'm sure our experts will come to your aid with more detailed advice. In the meantime, look at videos of double bass players and keep your eyes on their hands - and notice their pizzicato style.

Usual series of vids for absolute beginners, just to get you started:

[url="http://www.ehow.com/videos-on_2584_play-upright-bass.html"]http://www.ehow.com/videos-on_2584_play-upright-bass.html[/url]

Enjoy your DB! You'll fall in love with it

[Doddy]

1. I only use a canvas bag for mine. Hard cases are bloody massive and a real pain to fit in the car.I've had no
problems with it....just be careful of smacking it into things.

2. I don't know if you know anything about Upright technique,but you don't need to pluck the string that hard. You
can,but you are risking choking the sound.If you lighten up you'll get more tone.

3. I'd recommend learning how to use the bow,if only to a basic level. I'm not the greatest arco player-I can use it
on a gig if necessary but mostly it has really helped my playing both with intonation and technique-I just haven't had
enough chance to practise it for a while.

4. I like Rufus Reid's 'Evolving Bassist' book (the dvd is cool too).Ray Brown's book is good for running scales up and
down the instrument. The Simandl book is good,and has been a 'standard' text for years.

[TPJ]

Looks great. Playing DB is great fun. Enjoy

[invicta59]

DB's are pretty robust - theres plenty of videos on the tube showing them being stood/laid on or being generally thrown about. They can be picked up by the neck easily enough - just don't risk a detached fingerboard by picking it up by the fingerboard below the neck heel. I carry mine by leaning it, side on, towards my shoulder, reaching round and picking it up by the upper bout keeping the bridge to the "inside" to avoid any knocks from doors/tables/drunk punters while moving it any distance, whether in its bag or not.

I wouldn't worry about the canvas bag.. padded bags are bulkier and need more room in the car/van/hallway and don't really offer any additional protection from falling objects (mic/pa speaker stands/etc). Hard cases are a real pain to carry/transport.. probably only worth it if you have an expensive bass.

Plucking strength is hard to define.. so many variables to consider.. String type, string height, sound post position and plenty more. I'm not sure there is "a" special technique for playing upright, so much as a whole variety that can be used at any time. If you watch this video, you can see several different techniques being used.

[url="http://youtu.be/iFTqVHEJZ0A"]http://youtu.be/iFTqVHEJZ0A[/url]

[oggiesnr]

Have a lesson or two ASAP and your tutor will, with any luck, give your bass the once over and advise you of anything obvious that needs looking at. They'll also sort out posture and plucking etc before you get bad habits.

I hadn't intended to get into arco, apart from for checking intonation etc, but I'm finding I'm doing more and more of it and it's actually paying off in terms of my general musical technique as well.

Steve

[Fat Rich]

Thanks for all the replies, I'll get some lessons sorted out ASAP.

Judging by the clips I've seen I don't think I'm plucking too hard, I'll experiment with a lighter touch and try to understand the nuances. Plus I've played it probably an hour and a half this evening without straining any muscles or causing myself any aches or pains which is probably a good sign.

I'm doing all the things I do on electric bass, keeping everything relaxed, trying to keep my hands and wrists fairly straight, not waggling fingers too much or pressing too hard into the fingerboard. My plucking technique looks pretty much like the ones on the clip, just a bit clumsy at the moment till I get used to it.

Hopefully the bass is in pretty good shape, although it wasn't expensive it was used by a pro player:

[url="http://www.canalplus.fr/c-divertissement/pid3301-c-concert-prive.html?vid=397008"]http://www.canalplus.fr/c-divertissement/pid3301-c-concert-prive.html?vid=397008[/url]

It's going to be a while before I get up to speed, but definitely enjoying the challenge of learning something new!

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Fat Rich' timestamp='1348158672' post='1810206']1. How delicate is this thing? Is there a right way of lifting / carrying it? It came in a canvas bag, I'm thinking I should probably get something that'll protect it a bit better.[/quote]

If it's a ply bass it's probably sturdier than it looks and the neck joint will be the weakest spot - avoid smacking the pegbox on anything and don't let it fall over. If it's a carved bass then avoid smacking [i]anything[/i] on anything because they chip and split with a lot less effort!

[quote name='Fat Rich' timestamp='1348158672' post='1810206']will I damage it if I play too hard?[/quote]

No. Slapping can wear the fingerboard eventually, especially if you use steel strings, but no, don't worry about that.

[quote name='Fat Rich' timestamp='1348158672' post='1810206']3. I've had a look at some teachers and some Youtube vids that seem to advocate the use of a bow, partly to help improve intonation. Is this really necessary?[/quote]

It's a good idea but it's a bit of a Catch-22, the bow. If you bow your bass it will be way, way louder than if you pluck it, and when you first start bowing you will sound considerably worse than you do when you pluck, so there's going to be a period of playing horribly - AND LOUDLY - to get over. I can't help the feeling that my neighbours can hear it, so I hardly ever get the bow out. Shame because I do like the sound (when it works).

[Clarky]

Two comments from me to add to the above

1. Get a lesson asap - its invaluable to set your posture and technique on the right road. There are a few DB players on BassChat that teach in the London area such as jakenewmanbass (I can recommend him strongly) and chrkelly (not had a lesson but super nice guy)

2. I gig DB in my band and cannot play arco for toffee - I don't feel the need to learn either (although I do have a bow) as the music I play (folk/blues/country/flamenco) simply doesn't require it. Some strings don't work for playing both arco and pizz and an arco setup usually requires higher action than a pizz-only setup, although personal tastes can obviously vary widely about string height (some like it Ray Brown-style high to get more plucking volume, I prefer it low as I have to play a lot of fast lines). In short, learn arco if you want the broadest DB experience but its not necessary for many types of music. Your call here

[Fat Rich]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1348184167' post='1810704']
If it's a ply bass it's probably sturdier than it looks and the neck joint will be the weakest spot - avoid smacking the pegbox on anything and don't let it fall over. If it's a carved bass then avoid smacking [i]anything[/i] on anything because they chip and split with a lot less effort!

[/quote]

Yes, it's ply so hopefully I won't break it!

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1348184167' post='1810704']
It's a good idea but it's a bit of a Catch-22, the bow. If you bow your bass it will be way, way louder than if you pluck it, and when you first start bowing you will sound considerably worse than you do when you pluck, so there's going to be a period of playing horribly - AND LOUDLY - to get over. I can't help the feeling that my neighbours can hear it, so I hardly ever get the bow out. Shame because I do like the sound (when it works).
[/quote]

Neighbours won't be a problem, I'll see what a teacher says but it sounds like they'll probably want to go the bow route.


[quote name='Clarky' timestamp='1348209115' post='1810743']
Two comments from me to add to the above

1. Get a lesson asap - its invaluable to set your posture and technique on the right road. There are a few DB players on BassChat that teach in the London area such as jakenewmanbass (I can recommend him strongly) and chrkelly (not had a lesson but super nice guy)

2. I gig DB in my band and cannot play arco for toffee - I don't feel the need to learn either (although I do have a bow) as the music I play (folk/blues/country/flamenco) simply doesn't require it. Some strings don't work for playing both arco and pizz and an arco setup usually requires higher action than a pizz-only setup, although personal tastes can obviously vary widely about string height (some like it Ray Brown-style high to get more plucking volume, I prefer it low as I have to play a lot of fast lines). In short, learn arco if you want the broadest DB experience but its not necessary for many types of music. Your call here
[/quote]

What's considered a high action? Mine is currently 12mm on the E down to 10mm on the G.

[i]Edit: Action measured at the end of the fingerboard, I've done a few searches and action seems to vary from 7mm up to 18mm so I guess mine is probably about where it should be.[/i]

Edited September 21, 2012 by Fat Rich

[bremen]

[quote name='Fat Rich' timestamp='1348177883' post='1810619']

Hopefully the bass is in pretty good shape, although it wasn't expensive it was used by a pro player:

[url="http://www.canalplus.fr/c-divertissement/pid3301-c-concert-prive.html?vid=397008"]http://www.canalplus...html?vid=397008[/url]


[/quote]

Lucky bugger, I was looking at that bass and was very taken with the sound in that clip. Enjoy!

[PaulKing]

Yeah, nice score. It sounds a million dollars in that clip.
Pull the strings harder than you think, you have to get the whole bass to vibrate, not just excite a little electromagnet...
You can't pull too hard, when the need arises.
Some people buck the trend, but most abandon guitar style fingering .. angle your hand downso findgers point to the floor, and use the wholeside of your finger to pull those really big notes.

12mm on the E is on the high side, but not unusual. If you play Stanley Clarke jazz noodling, you might go down as low as 5-6mm ... but 9-10 on the E is about average i'd say, for most pizz.

If you want to play properly, learn witha bow - it does improve intonation immensely. But don't fear that bypassing the bow will mean you can't play perfectly well in most circumstances. I still can't bow for toffee, and I've been playing blues/roots music at at good level for 25yrs.

[Fat Rich]

Spent another hour or so on it today, it feel less like cuddling a wardrobe and more like playing an instrument.

I've just been playing 12 bar walking lines in E, using lots of open strings to check intonation and I'm starting to be able to find the notes I want a bit better. Still get totally lost sometimes although that's partly from trying to remember chord tones, chromatic approaches, tritone substitution, turnarounds and other stuff that's got buried under 20 years of rubbish in my head.

Still no aches and pains, everything feels fairly comfortable. I seem to be getting a good tone out of it whether I play hard or soft, also more consistent volume levels from each string and between fretted / open strings.

Put some feelers out for lessons but haven't heard back.

Thanks again for all the comments and advice!

[oldslapper]

Really pleased for you. I found once I gigged the DB for the first time there was no going back. Much prefer DB to electric these days.
Are you enjoying the physical aspect of playing it?
I tend to dance with mine, well..smooch. love it!

[FLoydElgar]

Do bowing... very important... Depending how serious you are with the instrument... Get yourself a good tutor preferably someone who's a pro!
Buy Niel Tarlton's Bowing method books and off you go.... with a decent tutor... you'll be fine!

Edited September 21, 2012 by FLoydElgar

[oggiesnr]

[quote name='FLoydElgar' timestamp='1348258408' post='1811639']
Do bowing... very important... Depending how serious you are with the instrument... Get yourself a good tutor preferably someone who's a pro!
Buy Niel Tarlton's Bowing method books and off you go.... with a decent tutor... you'll be fine!
[/quote]

+1 the Neil Tarlton books, not expensive and enough in them to keep you going for years.

Steve

[PaulKing]

[quote name='FLoydElgar' timestamp='1348258408' post='1811639']
Do bowing... very important... Depending how serious you are with the instrument... Get yourself a good tutor preferably someone who's a pro!
Buy Niel Tarlton's Bowing method books and off you go.... with a decent tutor... you'll be fine!
[/quote]

I do fundamentally take issue with that ... We're back to the horses for courses argument. Or maybe just a definition of the word 'serious'?
Anyway, Db is a more versatile beast than even us players often give it credit. I acknowledge that bowing has to be an integral part of classical, and probably most top level jazz technique, due to its unforgiving reliance on intonation and fingering. So if the only way to take DB seriously is to play orchestral, chamber, pro level jazz ... OK.
But I couldn't be much more serious about my playing, within the confines of day job, parenthood etc. it's a very serious hobby, costing money and as much dedication as I can find. But I realise I will never have the time to approach arco and orchestral playing, neither do I have any interest in doing so.
Meanwhile, what I do I do well, I practice hard, I take seriously, and I derive huge, life-affirming pleasure from ... without ever reaching for the bow.


You know what I mean... I'm not pissing about, playing at this, not in my book anyway!


I will concede that to reach any kind of professional level .... if that's how we're going to define serious ... bowing is the way forward. And i know my own technique would improve if i took to the bow. Maybe that's what you mean. But I get a bit touchy when people write off amateur hobby pizz playing as somehow less serious or significant.

Edited September 22, 2012 by PaulKing

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Fat Rich' timestamp='1348245641' post='1811406']
cuddling a wardrobe[/quote]

Nice.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='Fat Rich' timestamp='1348245641' post='1811406']
Still no aches and pains, everything feels fairly comfortable.
[/quote]

You're not really trying, are you?



On the whole bowing thing, I got into playing DB because I love the sound of a plucked DB playing walking basslines. For that reason also, I'm trying to learn how to play slap DB (I am notorious for absolutely [i][b]hating [/b][/i]slap on any other sort of bass).

I simply have no interest in the sound of a bowed DB, and no desire to learn how to do it.

If you like the sound, best learn how. Otherwise, opinions as to what constitutes "serious" playing are a bit irrelevant.

IMHO of course.

[artisan]

well said Paul i wholeheartedly agree

[Fat Rich]

[quote name='oldslapper' timestamp='1348253334' post='1811558']
Really pleased for you. I found once I gigged the DB for the first time there was no going back. Much prefer DB to electric these days.
Are you enjoying the physical aspect of playing it?
I tend to dance with mine, well..smooch. love it!
[/quote]

It's getting less physical the more I get used to it, some way away from dancing with it at the moment!



I've got a lesson booked with a pro player for Monday, I'll see what she says about bowing as it's not something I want to do unless it's ultimately going to save me a lot of time improving my intonation.

There seem to be books purely on bowing technique, seems like I might spend a lot of time learning a technique I don't really need. I've played unlined fretless basses for a while so I'm used to playing with my ears rather than my eyes, maybe that'll help me along.

I'm probably never going to be a serious player, just something I'll do for fun and relaxation. I do like to do things right, or if I decide to play unconventionally (I mess about on drums ambidextrously, no crossed arms which surprises some people) it's because I've given it serious thought and worked out that the benefits outweigh the drawbacks.

Still, I'm not ruling anything out at this early stage.

[thisnameistaken]

Have you got a bow? I've got a spare cheap French bow you can have if you want one, I'd be happy to send it to you in return for a donation to BC.

[zero9]

Blimey, this is bigger

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOhwt7uMutY&feature=fvwrel"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOhwt7uMutY&feature=fvwrel[/url]

[PaulKing]

Nice, love that clip. Bet he couldn't slap it though. I'd give it a go...

Meanwhile, thoroughly nice to see some bass chatters last night, unexpectedly. Happy jack and bluejay, I didn't even really twig who you were straight away, so sorry we didn't chat longer! Cheers for coming anyway.

Happy jack, I'm very happy to find an afternoon one weekend and swap tips. There'll be no bowing, and my intonation will only be good ENOUGH if you know what I mean...

[Silvia Bluejay]

LOL

It was a pleasure to see you, Paul, and the other guys from Jump 66, this time not just on stage at a distance but also close enough to have a chat! I'm sorting the photos and vids and will be in touch soon. And it was great to have Jack and Paul the Junkyard Dogs drummer there too. Fantastic night - we should do this more often!