Chris2112 Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1348478728' post='1813947'] I went through this phase..... What hindsight tells me is that a lot of this stuff suffered from a superficiality that meant it struggled to live up to the standards of great Jazz and often lacked the musical interaction that, for me, defined the greatest Jazz. [/quote] But then jazz usually lacks the flair and passion of great fusion, that, for me, defined the greatest fusion records. Jazz is all well and good, especially if you're hosting a dinner for old folks at the bowling green. But years of listening and research have taught me that whilst fusion grew from jazz, there is often a gulf between them in terms of their ability to interest me. I don't buy the lazy argument that fusion was poor man's jazz, amped up for the rock listeners. Rather, I would say it grew from jazz where jazz had become staid and turgid. As much as fusion players can be accused of excess and superficial displays of technical facility, more often than not I believe this stems from a desire to push the instrument and the music to it's limit. For even the most dedicated fusion players have had quiet, feelsome tracks. For every [i]Havona [/i]there is a track like [i]A Remark You Made. [/i]The same argument could be quickoly modified and thrown back at jazz; namely that it's players often turn out boring records, supposedly expecting some kudos and appropriate praise because it's jazz. At their closest, the bridge between jazz and fusion can be little more than electric instruments vs acoustic instruments because the music is so similar. But there are extremes at either end, from overly-fanciful fusion records to lazy jazz plodders. That's the thing with jazz, it often seems quite soulless and self-indulgent. To recommend some more great fusion though... I love this track. Very angular sounds, and Anthony Jackson laying down the bass with some serious groove. I have played this track for friends before and they say it sounds 'dated' because of the synth sounds. I think they're very much 'of their time' and the track is all the better for it. [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jb8k53ZzJbc"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jb8k53ZzJbc[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 [quote name='Chris2112' timestamp='1348696818' post='1817206'] But then jazz usually lacks the flair and passion of great fusion, that, for me, defined the greatest fusion records. Jazz is all well and good, especially if you're hosting a dinner for old folks at the bowling green.[/quote] Jazz usually lacks the flair and passion of great fusion.... What have you been listening to? [quote name='Chris2112' timestamp='1348696818' post='1817206'] At their closest, the bridge between jazz and fusion can be little more than electric instruments vs acoustic instruments because the music is so similar. But there are extremes at either end, from overly-fanciful fusion records to lazy jazz plodders. That's the thing with jazz, it often seems quite soulless and self-indulgent. [/quote] I don't think there is much room for that kind of product anymore, Chris. There is a lot of variation in Jazz now but there aren't many 'plodders' left. There was a tendency in the 50s and 60s to release lp after lp of standards and blues tunes that were often stale and preditable. I agree, but Jazz woke up a long time ago and those kinds of recordings are increasingly rare, unless you classify that Buble/Peyroux/Norah Jones/Jamie Cullem cabaret stuff as Jazz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 [quote name='Chris2112' timestamp='1348696818' post='1817206'] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jb8k53ZzJbc[/media] [/quote] Great Album all round [agree about the Synth sounds and being better] I remember buying it for about £20.00 or so around the mid 90's, now you can download from iTunes for about $10.00 Garry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassBus Posted September 27, 2012 Author Share Posted September 27, 2012 [quote name='Chris2112' timestamp='1348696818' post='1817206'] But then jazz usually lacks the flair and passion of great fusion... [/quote] As Bilbo says what have you been listening to. If you listen to the clip of Wynton Marsallis and Frank Vignola playing Sweet Georgia Brown on youtube I don't think you could really apply that statement to Jazz. Some might say you run the risk of becoming a musical snob with statements like that. Every music has its good points and bad. There is good and bad jazz as there is good and bad fusion, as there is good and bad rock, as there is... The advantage we have these days is the internet to let us hear all that good and bad music. We can then make up our minds before we buy the stuff. Keep an open mind and you'll find the good stuff in any genre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris2112 Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 [quote name='BassBus' timestamp='1348745582' post='1817609'] Some might say you run the risk of becoming a musical snob with statements like that. [/quote] You will note all I have done there in the phrase you have quoted is to paraphrase the sentence that Bilbo had already written, and just changed 'jazz' for 'fusion', essentially giving the phrase the opposite meaning of what Bilbo had said. But if some might say that Bilbo and I are running the risk of becoming musical snobs with statements like that, that's a risk we'll just have to take! [quote name='lowdown' timestamp='1348735826' post='1817418'] Great Album all round [agree about the Synth sounds and being better] I remember buying it for about £20.00 or so around the mid 90's, now you can download from iTunes for about $10.00 Garry [/quote] Tell me about it. A few years ago I was buying as much of Jonas Hellborg's back catalogue as I could get my hands on. Some of the records costing as much as £25 a pop! A lot of them are still unavailable on the internet though. Some of them, I wonder if Jonas even has a copy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 My name's BIlbo and I am a musiclal snob...(as if you didn't know ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 [sub][sub][url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2BuCBFQnBk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2BuCBFQnBk[/url][/sub][/sub] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGh43wP_kjE"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGh43wP_kjE[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visog Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1348771606' post='1818064'] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGh43wP_kjE[/media] [/quote] This was Jaco wasn't it? Can't imagine he was very fond of it. Hated fusion and said so! Plus it doesn't swing, another bug-bear of his, and a whole other debate. Personally I quite like it. This album's also got Stanley on it singing too on a great track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Yeah, that JP. I think of that as Jazz Rock so don't expect it to swing. It is what it is and I [i]think[/i] it was the first Jaco I ever heard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkypenguin Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Two tracks by my favourite fusion composer/performer HIromi Uehara http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbjJI7qK-UA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6pgM-NVfWg My transcription of XYZ is up in theory and technique somewhere if anyone is interested in having a crack at it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassBus Posted September 28, 2012 Author Share Posted September 28, 2012 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1348771322' post='1818057'] My name's BIlbo and I am a musiclal snob...(as if you didn't know ) [/quote] So, quite an open minded snob then, Bilbo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoRi Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Matthew Garrison deserves a place in this topic (I think). [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk8Qs4GUAzA&feature=g-like[/media] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 [quote name='funkypenguin' timestamp='1348779693' post='1818234'] My transcription of XYZ is up in theory and technique somewhere if anyone is interested in having a crack at it [/quote] Yep, i grabbed that a while back - and a very fine transcription it is, of a very fine tune. Garry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassBus Posted September 28, 2012 Author Share Posted September 28, 2012 [quote name='RoRi' timestamp='1348854664' post='1819235'] Matthew Garrison deserves a place in this topic (I think). [/quote] You're right there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkypenguin Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 [quote name='lowdown' timestamp='1348855676' post='1819249'] Yep, i grabbed that a while back - and a very fine transcription it is, of a very fine tune. Garry [/quote] Cheers! glad you liked it. Garrison is more than worthy of a place in this thread. Im determined to see him play live at some point in the future! Family starts around 0:50 [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOTPcVibjhM&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOTPcVibjhM&feature=related[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hollywoodrox Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 This is a cool thread I love the alan holdsworth, tribal tech and ohm stuff. I have a heavy weather by weather report Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Let's mention Passport, Return To Forever, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Bruford, Brand X, Soft Machine.... all had their strengths and weaknesses but also their highpoints. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hollywoodrox Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 I have return to forever on an 8 track cart, my player isnt working tho I think the belt is busted and I am loathe to try taking it apart as it is one of the space helmet shape 8 tracks and I fear breaking the plastic casing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blamelouis Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Best jazz fusion band on te go at the moment is the German trio Jazz Pistols . I have really gotten into their stuff recently and they are very technical but soulful as well . They do a great version of teentown ,birdland , sex in a pan and chick coreas Spain . http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=0_TrKZFmWSk http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=ZMXlVrIDqgg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blamelouis Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Another trio I love are The Bad plus . A fusion band of sorts but they play some beautiful stuff and take The Police's strategy of space and expensive chords to a new level. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=txVSX_DOrpI http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q9hOSZGMXlI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark Lord Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 I have no idea what fusion is, but the clips above that I listened to are diabolical. To me, it's not even music. I 'm happy if you like it and that's your thing, but an utter waste of time to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkypenguin Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 [quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1349001043' post='1820450'] I have no idea what fusion is, but the clips above that I listened to are diabolical. To me, it's not even music. I 'm happy if you like it and that's your thing, but an utter waste of time to me. [/quote] In what way is it not music? not having a pop, im just curious at to why you think that try this [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLXpEt42W-8&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLXpEt42W-8&feature=related[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark Lord Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 [quote name='funkypenguin' timestamp='1349026706' post='1820838'] In what way is it not music? not having a pop, im just curious at to why you think that try this [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLXpEt42W-8&feature=related[/media] [/quote] Yeah, I appreciate that ...... but this particular clip reminds me of a demo cassette that I once got with a portable tape recorder. Sort of musak rather than music. If you like it ... cool ..... but, to me, there isn't enough time left to be listening to this. Curious production on this song too - the guitar and bass appear to be coming through in the centre of the stereo field on top of each other. Not for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkypenguin Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Fair enough, dont listen to it More Aristocrats. Saw their show in Manchester earlier in the year, they took the roof off. Such an amazing gig [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFVL-0i1Haw&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFVL-0i1Haw&feature=related[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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