The Other Notes....? Moving away from Root and 5th

[xilddx]

It's just the way your post came across mate, like a clinical theoretical approach to writing.

You seem like you are well on your way, you play notes you like, that's all you need to do, but obviously you can develop that infinitely. But is NOT just about notes, there is also timing, using space, swing, accent, techniques like legato, staccato, diminuendo, crescendo, ghost notes, trills, tremolo, vibrato, violining (or 'cello-ing' in our case), slides, diads, triads, chords ..

Edited September 24, 2012 by silddx

[WillEdwards]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1348526174' post='1814928']
It's just the way your post came across mate, like a clinical theoretical approach to writing.

You seem like you are well on your way, you play notes you like, that's all you need to do, but obviously you can develop that infinitely. But is NOT just about notes, there is also timing, using space, swing, accent, techniques like legato, staccato, diminuendo, crescendo, ghost notes, trills, tremolo, vibrato, violining (or 'cello-ing' in our case), slides, diads, triads, chords ..
[/quote]

Definitely aaaaaaaaaall that!

[xilddx]

[quote name='WillEdwards' timestamp='1348527891' post='1814959']
Definitely aaaaaaaaaall that!
[/quote]
Get to it then!

Seriously, if you put your time into expression, space and time, rather than notes, you'll find that obsession for finding 'interesting' notes becomes much less important or pertinent to your becoming an expressive bassist.

You will also find playing the simplest of bass lines immensely rewarding.

Edited September 24, 2012 by silddx

[steve-soar]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1348528255' post='1814962']
Get to it then!

Seriously, if you put your time into expression, space and time, rather than notes, you'll find that obsession for finding 'interesting' notes becomes much less important or pertinent to your becoming an expressive bassist.

You will also find playing the simplest of bass lines immensely rewarding.
[/quote]Well said, my friend.

[Bilbo]

Learn major scales, minor scales, melodic minor, diminished, augmented and blues scales in all keys in thirds, fourths, fifths, sixths, sevenths and then learn all the modes and arpegiated chords of all of those scales and modes. If you learn them well and are able to recognise the sounds, you will be able find anything you need.

Should take you about two years.

Anything else is a short cut i.e. the long way round

[thisnameistaken]

Tip while you're taking your first baby steps: Play the tonics and fifths on the first and/or third beats of the bar and put your experimentation in between. So long as you resolve to one of those notes it will still work and any mistakes or unintended harmonisations you make won't be song-ruiningly obvious.

Edited September 25, 2012 by thisnameistaken

[BigRedX]

Theory will tell you all the notes you could play. Only listening, experience and personal taste will tell you the notes you should play.

[Bilbo]

And you develop that listening, experience and taste comprehensively by practising the scales, modes, arpeggios etc thoroughly.

[thisnameistaken]

I only really know a couple of scales and don't understand modes at all despite attempting to understand them a few times. I know what different intervals sound like and I base most of what I do on that.

What would the benefits be of learning modes and more scales? Presumably I'd also need to memorise the context within which to use them, and then wait for that to become automatic, it seems like a lot of information to have to retain and I can't really appreciate from my current position what the benefits would be?

[TimR]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1348562835' post='1815108']
Theory will tell you all the notes you could play. Only listening, experience and personal taste will tell you the notes you should play.
[/quote]

Yes.

It's a two way street. Your ears should be able to tell you that a 3rd will sound good, but your theory will tell you whether it should have been a minor 3rd of major third you just played, and your ears will tell you whether you were right or not. If your theory and ears aren't up to scratch there's a 50/50 chance that you played the wrong one.

[Bilbo]

Think of it as language. The more you know, the more you can express yourself. It doesn't mean that you can't say a lot with what you have but it will mean that your ability to express yourself is impaired. For me, and this is a personal view, everytime I hear a piece of really intense melodic improvising over interesting changes, I want to know what is happening. I can hear the changes in most pop/rock/funk songs without needing to see a chart (I do gigs regularly with people who have no charts and who play songs cold without rehearsal - they expect you to play the song by hearing it Mostly it works but there are occasional train wrecks) but, for me, the more interesting stuff has got things happening that you would probably not 'happen upon' without some element of applied study.

To extend the language metaphor, without some form of study, you may be able to order Chinese food but you may not be able to explain how to prepare some or to explain why it tastes so good. It's up to the individual how far they want to take it.

[Marvin]

Theory just describes what your ears are telling you play.

Who honestly, when they are playing, thinks "I'm going to play an 11th or 6th now". It just flows on what you know sounds right falling off that fretboard. It should be intuitive because music is an expression of yourself, an art, not numbers, dots and squiggles.

[thisnameistaken]

OK, but even if I did learn all the scales and modes I doubt I would be in the position to busk jazz tunes by guessing the changes. Would I?

Sure I can usually find my way through a pop song without rehearsal so my ears are working OK for simple harmony but I can't imagine ever being able to busk changes in a jazz tune based on hearing a recording where the pianist has done everything in his power to obfuscate them.

[BigRedX]

But to extend the language metaphor further, it's only useful if everyone you work with speaks the same language. Otherwise it's as much use as being able to speak Japanese when you are surrounded by Frenchmen.

[Bilbo]

Yes you could because the harmony is always there, even when it is obfuscated to within an inch of its life.

People do think 'I am going to play an 11th now' but they also think 'I am going to make this pretty noise that makes me feel good' as well but they learned that pretty note and how it is best used by studying the scales and modes not because they happened upon it one day by accident. The trouble is, 'ear' players tend not to move very far from basic diatonic harmony and it tends to be those who study who find the more advanced concepts. Needn't be that way in theory (!) but, IME, that's just how it is.

[JTUK]

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[Bilbo]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1348567381' post='1815186']
But to extend the language metaphor further, it's only useful if everyone you work with speaks the same language. Otherwise it's as much use as being able to speak Japanese when you are surrounded by Frenchmen.
[/quote]

Music theory is not another language (and the French, Japanese and Cameroonian all speak it too), it just offers a deeper understanding of the language you already speak, offering new words and, consequently, new insights.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1348567557' post='1815188']
Yes you could because the harmony is always there, even when it is obfuscated to within an inch of its life.
[/quote]

Hmm. I can sometimes sit there even with a chart and not be able to work out where I am in the head let alone figure out the changes by ear from some herbert plonking five humans' worth of fingers down for every chord.

I definitely need some lessons.

[Bilbo]

I am struggling to find the words for this but will try. When you are listening to music that is more than basic first position chords on the first beat of every bar, you have to listen more widely than the actual chord and focus on its relationship to the one before it and the notes that are contained in the presenting sound; is it a fourth higher or a whole tone lower etc? You tend to hear how it sounds in a wider sense than in the way that you would with simpler forms. You can, over time, develop the ability to hear specific voicings but I guess what I am saying is that you hear shape of the chords through the scales and intervals being played rather than as a block chord. Bit like a Rolf Harris painting...'can you see what it is yet'?

[thisnameistaken]

Yeah I know what you're saying but it's hard when the intervals that are the furthest forward are almost totally unrelated to the movement of the melody. I sometimes think jazz is all about trying not to listen to anybody else whilst trying to make them all **** up.

[Doddy]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1348522663' post='1814862']
You are approaching it from a chart reading sessionista's point of view though mate.
(edit)
It really is all about educating your ears and playing what you LIKE hearing. You have to develop your musical imagination. Of course a session player needs to be able to play almost anything, but I don't think that's where the OP is coming from.
[/quote]
...and the problem of approaching it from that angle is?
I actually do more gigs where I don't read charts and it still all helps.
You're right about educating your ears(that's never been an argument),but it's not always about playing what [i]you[/i] like.
The OP may or may not have been coming from that angle,but it's a perspective that no one else had suggested until that point...
and to be honest,saying that "No amount of theory will help you",is doing people a disservice,especially when you later reference
Steve Vai,who knows a ridiculous amount.

[quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1348566487' post='1815168']
Who honestly, when they are playing, thinks "I'm going to play an 11th or 6th now". It just flows on what you know sounds right falling off that fretboard. It should be intuitive because music is an expression of yourself, an art, not numbers, dots and squiggles.
[/quote]
That is why you study and practice...so that when you play you don't think "I'm going to play this note or that note".You do
all that in the practice room. But the idea is that it becomes ingrained and it comes out subconsciously.

The notion that music is an "expression of yourself" isn't always the case.There are a lot of gig situations where you may not be
required to 'express yourself' and it is your job to simply highlight the changes or read the charts or whatever. In these cases you
better know what notes make up what chords.That doesn't mean that you don't use your ears,but it does mean that you sometimes
need more.
[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1348566688' post='1815173']
OK, but even if I did learn all the scales and modes I doubt I would be in the position to busk jazz tunes by guessing the changes. Would I?
[/quote]
I'd say this is more about learning changes and harmony and keeping your ears open than scales and modes. There are a lot of jazz
tunes that follow similar changes to each other,in the same way as pop music does.If you know most of the common changes and can hear
when they are being played it makes life a lot easier to busk on a jazz gig.Then it's just a matter of keeping your ears open for anything
that may be unfamiliar.
[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1348567381' post='1815186']
But to extend the language metaphor further, it's only useful if everyone you work with speaks the same language.
[/quote]
I disagree. I've done countless gigs with people who don't know theory and just play/write,but it doesn't mean that my knowledge
hasn't been useful to either myself or others.

[steve-bbb]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1348522663' post='1814862']
You are approaching it from a chart reading sessionista's point of view though mate.

To really do this properly, you have to be expressing yourself at the speed of thought. To do that you have to use you ears and experience. Your fingers need to have eyes, to quote Steve Vai. This comes with practice and experience. Knowing what intervals sound like is critical, having an imagination to use them is even more so. You don't need to give these intervals names if you don't want to, but you DO need to know what they sound like. You also need a vocabulary of phrases that you like (liking what you play is also critical if you want to play with any expression). You should be able to sing these in your head and play them without thinking as you adapt them to musical situations. I am also of the mind that deciding what notes you LEAVE OUT is a better approach to what notes you PUT IN

It really is all about educating your ears and playing what you LIKE hearing. You have to develop your musical imagination. Of course a session player needs to be able to play almost anything, but I don't think that's where the OP is coming from.
[/quote]

this

if you dont know what notes to fit in the spaces then its probably meant to be left that way

my main concern is there will always be a pesky guitarer whose ears will prick up at the empty space needing filling and they will feel an uncontrollable urge to start widdling all over the place

[jakenewmanbass]

If you can play root and fifth in all it's permutations, still serve the song, and keep it interesting then you are worthy of some of the best bass playing jobs on earth...
If you can't then I would suggest that your quest to play other notes is a little early. Be f***ing awesome with root and fifth before you decide to move on... (I am being deadly serious)

[artisan]

[quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1348580531' post='1815466']
If you can play root and fifth in all it's permutations, still serve the song, and keep it interesting then you are worthy of some of the best bass playing jobs on earth...
If you can't then I would suggest that your quest to play other notes is a little early. Be f***ing awesome with root and fifth before you decide to move on... (I am being deadly serious)
[/quote]

damn right that man

[Bilbo]

[quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1348580531' post='1815466']
Be f***ing awesome with root and fifth before you decide to move on... [/quote]

He's right.

(He's alway f***in' right )