The Other Notes....? Moving away from Root and 5th

[xilddx]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1348580086' post='1815457']
...and the problem of approaching it from that angle is?
I actually do more gigs where I don't read charts and it still all helps.
You're right about educating your ears(that's never been an argument),but it's not always about playing what [i]you[/i] like.
The OP may or may not have been coming from that angle,but it's a perspective that no one else had suggested until that point...
and to be honest,saying that "No amount of theory will help you",is doing people a disservice,especially when you later reference
Steve Vai,who knows a ridiculous amount.


That is why you study and practice...so that when you play you don't think "I'm going to play this note or that note".You do
all that in the practice room. But the idea is that it becomes ingrained and it comes out subconsciously.

The notion that music is an "expression of yourself" isn't always the case.There are a lot of gig situations where you may not be
required to 'express yourself' and it is your job to simply highlight the changes or read the charts or whatever. In these cases you
better know what notes make up what chords.That doesn't mean that you don't use your ears,but it does mean that you sometimes
need more.

I'd say this is more about learning changes and harmony and keeping your ears open than scales and modes. There are a lot of jazz
tunes that follow similar changes to each other,in the same way as pop music does.If you know most of the common changes and can hear
when they are being played it makes life a lot easier to busk on a jazz gig.Then it's just a matter of keeping your ears open for anything
that may be unfamiliar.

I disagree. I've done countless gigs with people who don't know theory and just play/write,but it doesn't mean that my knowledge
hasn't been useful to either myself or others.
[/quote]

The problem is, a relative beginner posts a question like this, and are often told, learn scales, learn intervals, learn the modes, learn theory, learn to read .. It's bollocks really, because it's idealistic and completely unrealistic. This sort of advice takes a lifetime and it usually makes people feel very inadequate, and may put them off learning much at all. Easy steps. Sure, if he wants to be Jimmy Haslip, by all means go to school, but for most of us that's not the way it is.

No amount of theory will help someone be musical if they are not constantly LISTENING and educating their ears.

That's pretty much my angle anyway.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1348585044' post='1815557']
He's right.

(He's alway f***in' right )
[/quote]

He is !

[steve-soar]

[quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1348580531' post='1815466']
If you can play root and fifth in all it's permutations, still serve the song, and keep it interesting then you are worthy of some of the best bass playing jobs on earth...
If you can't then I would suggest that your quest to play other notes is a little early. Be f***ing awesome with root and fifth before you decide to move on... (I am being deadly serious)
[/quote]There it is.

[Doddy]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1348588513' post='1815616']
The problem is, a relative beginner posts a question like this, and are often told, learn scales, learn intervals, learn the modes, learn theory, learn to read .. It's bollocks really, because it's idealistic and completely unrealistic. This sort of advice takes a lifetime and it usually makes people feel very inadequate, and may put them off learning much at all. Easy steps. Sure, if he wants to be Jimmy Haslip, by all means go to school, but for most of us that's not the way it is.

No amount of theory will help someone be musical if they are not constantly LISTENING and educating their ears.

That's pretty much my angle anyway.
[/quote]
No one's arguing about listening and educating your ears...But why is the rest bollocks and unrealistic? It's certainly
not unrealistic due to the amount of people over the years who have learnt and are still learning all of this stuff.Of course
it takes years to study,but what is the problem with that? Again,there are tons of musicians who are still studying even though
they have had long careers in music. No one said that you can or should learn this overnight,it's a long steady process.
If people feel inadequate or put off by suggestions of what to learn,then that's down to the individual.The way that I've always
approached it,is that it's all just part of the learning process.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1348592037' post='1815698']
No one's arguing about listening and educating your ears...But why is the rest bollocks and unrealistic? It's certainly
not unrealistic due to the amount of people over the years who have learnt and are still learning all of this stuff.Of course
it takes years to study,but what is the problem with that? Again,there are tons of musicians who are still studying even though
they have had long careers in music. No one said that you can or should learn this overnight,it's a long steady process.
If people feel inadequate or put off by suggestions of what to learn,then that's down to the individual.The way that I've always
approached it,is that it's all just part of the learning process.
[/quote]

Sorry, poorly phrased, I meant the advice is pretty much bollocks, its an overused used stock answer to those seeking some improvement in their playing and writing. A good tutor needs to identify the student's issues and remedy them with intelligently targeted exercises, not a very large theoretical undertaking.

[Doddy]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1348594922' post='1815762']
Sorry, poorly phrased, I meant the advice is pretty much bollocks, its an overused used stock answer to those seeking some improvement in their playing and writing. A good tutor needs to identify the student's issues and remedy them with intelligently targeted exercises, not a very large theoretical undertaking.
[/quote]
Ok.
I feel the same way about all the 'just play what you feel' type answers.
Your right about a good tutor...but as we're not actually in a proper lesson situation,my advise to study chord tones isn't(in the grand scheme of things) a massive theoretical undertaking,and will actually help the OP to understand how they can use notes other than the
root and fifth.

[risingson]

[quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1348580531' post='1815466']
If you can play root and fifth in all it's permutations, still serve the song, and keep it interesting then you are worthy of some of the best bass playing jobs on earth...
If you can't then I would suggest that your quest to play other notes is a little early. Be f***ing awesome with root and fifth before you decide to move on... (I am being deadly serious)
[/quote]

Absolutely, I wish I'd been astute enough to have said this.

[peteb]

[quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1348566487' post='1815168']
Theory just describes what your ears are telling you play.

Who honestly, when they are playing, thinks "I'm going to play an 11th or 6th now". It just flows on what you know sounds right falling off that fretboard. It should be intuitive because music is an expression of yourself, an art, not numbers, dots and squiggles.
[/quote]

[color=#222222]Music has a strong mathematical element – even I can see that speaking as someone who is self-taught, doesn’t really read music and likes to think of themselves as having a ‘good ear’.[/color]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1348565096' post='1815147']
I only really know a couple of scales and don't understand modes at all despite attempting to understand them a few times. I know what different intervals sound like and I base most of what I do on that.

What would the benefits be of learning modes and more scales? Presumably I'd also need to memorise the context within which to use them, and then wait for that to become automatic, it seems like a lot of information to have to retain and I can't really appreciate from my current position what the benefits would be?
[/quote]

[color=#222222]If you know a major and a minor scale then surely modes are not such a great leap? They are just scales made up of the same notes but starting on a different note from the original scale……[/color]

Edited September 25, 2012 by peteb

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1348598911' post='1815842']If you know a major and a minor scale then surely modes are not such a great leap? They are just scales made up of the same notes but starting on a different note from the original scale……[/quote]

Yeah I know what they are (although I can never remember their names) but I don't know why they exist or where to use them or why that one repeating sequence of intervals can be messed with like that and still work.

So I guess I know how to use two of them, that much is true.

[peteb]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1348599680' post='1815860']
Yeah I know what they are (although I can never remember their names) but I don't know why they exist or where to use them or why that one repeating sequence of intervals can be messed with like that and still work.

So I guess I know how to use two of them, that much is true.
[/quote]
I can never remember the names either, but it's not really important.

My main use for them is that in addition to the major and minor scales you will ofter use a major scale with a dominant 7th or a minor scale with a natural 6th rather than a minor 6th.........

[3below]

[quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1348566487' post='1815168']
Theory just describes what your ears are telling you play.

Who honestly, when they are playing, thinks "I'm going to play an 11th or 6th now". It just flows on what you know sounds right falling off that fretboard. It should be intuitive because music is an expression of yourself, an art, not numbers, dots and squiggles.
[/quote]

I so agree with this, and yes I did know my scales and stuff once. These days it just pops out in my hands, I know what sounds right and wrong. Theory has helped me increase the amount of right notes I get in the stages before automaticity. Zen and the art of bass playing. Trouble is with age I forget chord structures of songs, crib sheets with big writing is the answer lol.

Edited September 25, 2012 by 3below

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1348601251' post='1815887']My main use for them is that in addition to the major and minor scales you will ofter use a major scale with a dominant 7th or a minor scale with a natural 6th rather than a minor 6th.........[/quote]

OK. So would you do that to support a particular type of chord? Or to create a particular mood? I mean, is there anything that these modes are typically used for, or are they as generic as the two that everybody knows?

Also, when does anyone ever have the audacity to use a whole-tone scale? I think I've heard Stevie Wonder do it once, but is that how useful it is - you can use it once if you're lucky and mega talented?

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1348602971' post='1815925']
Also, when does anyone ever have the audacity to use a whole-tone scale? I think I've heard Stevie Wonder do it once, but is that how useful it is - you can use it once if you're lucky and mega talented?
[/quote]
over any 7#5 chord..!

[peteb]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1348602971' post='1815925']
OK. So would you do that to support a particular type of chord? Or to create a particular mood?
[/quote]
Both, but I would say more often the former (for the stuff I play)......

[SteveK]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1348599680' post='1815860']
Yeah I know what they are (although I can never remember their names)
[/quote]
[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1348601251' post='1815887']
I can never remember the names either, but it's not really important.
[/quote]
You're right knowing the actual names isn't important, unless you're trying to verbally communicate them to someone else.

For anyone interested - a little mnemonic device (of my own creation) which helped me to remember them:

[b]I[/b]onian[b]; D[/b]orian;[b] P[/b]hrygian[b]; L[/b]ydian[b]; M[/b]ixolydian[b]; A[/b]eolian[b]; L[/b]ocrian
[b]I[/b] [b]D[/b]o [b]P[/b]lay [b]L[/b]ike [b]M[/b]y [b]A[/b]unt [b]L[/b]ucy

[peteb]

[quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1348608613' post='1816045']
You're right knowing the actual names isn't important, unless you're trying to verbally communicate them to someone else.

For anyone interested - a little mnemonic device (of my own creation) which helped me to remember them:

[b]I[/b]onian[b]; D[/b]orian;[b] P[/b]hrygian[b]; L[/b]ydian[b]; M[/b]ixolydian[b]; A[/b]eolian[b]; L[/b]ocrian
[b]I[/b] [b]D[/b]o [b]P[/b]lay [b]L[/b]ike [b]M[/b]y [b]A[/b]unt [b]L[/b]ucy
[/quote]
Fortunately, I don't generally need to identify them by name to other people - it's generally 'that minor scale with the natural 6th'!

However, that is very useful to know so many thanks.....

Edited September 25, 2012 by peteb

[spinynorman]

When I first took up bass I read a thread on a forum (not this one) where someone had been to see some hotshot bassist and reported "it was great, he didn't play a root note all night".

Down the years I've sometimes wondered if that was actually a good thing.

[xilddx]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1348602971' post='1815925']

Also, when does anyone ever have the audacity to use a whole-tone scale? I think I've heard Stevie Wonder do it once, but is that how useful it is - you can use it once if you're lucky and mega talented?
[/quote]

Depends how you phrase it doesn't it? Same as Diminished scales, I love the sound of them.

[risingson]

[quote name='spinynorman' timestamp='1348611939' post='1816111']
When I first took up bass I read a thread on a forum (not this one) where someone had been to see some hotshot bassist and reported "it was great, he didn't play a root note all night".

Down the years I've sometimes wondered if that was actually a good thing.
[/quote]

That sounds like 1.) my idea of a nightmare and 2.) like the guy talking had probably disappeared up his own arse!

[SteveK]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1348602971' post='1815925']
Also, when does anyone ever have the audacity to use a whole-tone scale? I think I've heard Stevie Wonder do it once, but is that how useful it is - you can use it once if you're lucky and mega talented?
[/quote]
Another example of a [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjexmfdXXhQ"]whole-tone scale @ 0:06[/url] blink and you'll miss it!

[xilddx]

[quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1348614898' post='1816146']
Another example of a [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjexmfdXXhQ"]whole-tone scale @ 0:06[/url] blink and you'll miss it!
[/quote]

There you go! Nice one

[spinynorman]

Just remembered [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/60829-to-go-the-bill-wyman-bumper-book-of-root-notes/page__p__625953__hl__bill%20wyman%20book%20of%20root%20notes__fromsearch__1#entry625953"]The Bill Wyman Bumper Book of Root Notes[/url].

Looks like I killed that thread.

[Geek99]

Patrick pfeiffer explains this really well in bass guitar for dummies, available at your library

[bassfunk]

Not sure if this will help? I have no problem with grooves etc and have a pretty good knowledge of theory, but I really enjoyed the below lesson, might be something to get yourself started on?
http://youtu.be/VJNq4GVoy5I

Then when you've had a go at both parts of the exercise and had a mess about, practice with stuff like this:
http://youtu.be/_zVVySagJJU

Then try the same kind of thing but with a backing track over a Major chord, etc etc. Then go find a bass teacher who can really expand your mind and playing :-)

Edited September 26, 2012 by bassfunk