risingson Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Vocal arrangements are where it's at, these kinds of pedals are far less preferable than seeing 4 or 5 people perform great harmonies if their capability is there. It's like anything though, if you use stuff like this to correct personal inadequacies then it becomes totally pointless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjones Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1349633702' post='1828528'] hmmmmm.... something like thus is taking the p************** IMO. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2r7wuiOFNOg&feature=fvwrel[/media] I can see a Solo of Duo in a bar adding a fuller voice... but that is obvious what they are doing but for a band ..?? I think I'd walk out ... [/quote] Not so sure about the effect but I like his slippers.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Dave Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I guess as a singer , to me it comes down to which sounds best. An 'almost' voice with pitching helped a little by technology or one flat as a witches tit. I've tried really hard over the years to pitch better and it's still not perfect. I have no problem using a digital tuner to mke my bass pitch perfectly - why is my voice different? If I was way off - no , tech wouldn't be the answer , more practise would be the answer. I use a bit of delay on my live voice with the pub rig and that's it. I doubt the investment in more tech would be worth the improvement as my pitching's not bad most of the time , just less than perfect some of the time. If at a bigger gig a PA crew turned up and suggested a harmoniser or similar on my voice - why would I not consider that? I tke the same view as I've always done towards tech , particularly new tech. Will it do a job for me? It's the only question to ask really. Personally I'd also ask if that job would be cost effective but many wouldn't care so much about that which is fair enough, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-bbb Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 [quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1349638850' post='1828628'] Wait a minute... Are you implying that there might be some famous acts that use pitch correction live?!?! [/quote] there are some that dont but really ought to aye pet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-bbb Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 [quote name='Dr.Dave' timestamp='1349680347' post='1828894'] I tke the same view as I've always done towards tech , particularly new tech. Will it do a job for me? It's the only question to ask really. Personally I'd also ask if that job would be cost effective but many wouldn't care so much about that which is fair enough, [/quote] this +1 i dont recall many people criticising brian may when he did the brighton rock solo all those years ago - he only has two hands and can only play one guitar at a time so he used what was available to him to set up the whole multi-layered delays/rounds thing to great effect imho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pikeman Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 How many of us use effects on our basses? Surely this is just the same. Not everyone is blessed with perfect pitch and in my case anything that helps is grabbed with two grateful hands. I've recently started using a vocal effects unit to help my rather poor backing vocals and in the band mix it really does help to fill out the sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted October 8, 2012 Author Share Posted October 8, 2012 [quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1349646086' post='1828762'] Hate autotune, also hate digital harmonies. A human voice singing in tune sounds good, a voice that has been corrected doesn't - it gets very tiring to listen to. Same goes for harmonies. Avoid. And if you can't do the vocals you want with the band you've got then you're out of luck. [/quote] My thinking really... you can either do the track justice with what you have or you can't. A bit of imagination might get you past the problem via a vocal re-work or something, but to have 1 BV sound Huuuuuuge is a bit sly IMO. We started with pretty average BV's..if that.. in our band and would certainly have been a candidate for 'augmentation' had we thought about it, but we worked hard with guys putting their hands up and doing what they can do and we sound pretty decent back there now, IMO. I tend to think that if you want to do a track and you don't have the tools that it needs then think again.. but to kick in a pedal and 'con' people is tacky and if they are sussed... they deserve all the stick they might get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crez5150 Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 We use the TC Voicelive Touch quite extensively in our band set up. It's the same with any effect unit... it's how you go about setting it up. You have to get to know how to use it correctly. How many people here plug into a multi effect unit then unplug ten minuets later because they don't like the sound of it..... it's all in the parameter editing. Don't over do it (as demo'd on the earlier video link) as it will sound dreadful and fake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevB Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 [quote name='crez5150' timestamp='1349687580' post='1828991'] Don't over do it (as demo'd on the earlier video link) as it will sound dreadful and fake. [/quote] I think this is the key, judicial use in the right way can sound excellent. The last time I saw someone using it was where the bass player was the lead singer and he didn't get any support BV's from any other band member. He didn't use pitch correction though, it was some old early harmoniser unit that he said was long discontinued, triggering it with a stand alone foot switch. He knew how to use it and when, just dropping in occasional lines in a chorus or whatever (like in 'Long Train Runnin') to give an extra harmony vocal. Sounded great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crez5150 Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 A lot of the tunes we play (Disco genre) are originally big production numbers with lots of backing box. The lead vox is backed up by myself and the guitarist... but then we drop in further vox to give a much bigger/thicker spread. Whats real handy is for the smaller gigs where we don't have our sound engineer on hand, we have pre-programmed eq/reverbs/delays on the main vox that can be called up as a patch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 [quote name='pikeman' timestamp='1349687056' post='1828981'] How many of us use effects on our basses? Surely this is just the same. [/quote] Of course - the voice is an Instrument as well [In the right hands of course - Just like Bass playing] Garry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisnameistaken Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1349687474' post='1828989']I tend to think that if you want to do a track and you don't have the tools that it needs then think again.. but to kick in a pedal and 'con' people is tacky and if they are sussed... they deserve all the stick they might get.[/quote] I've used effects on vocals before, not so much live but for special effects on recordings, if you're using it creatively then fair enough. But pitch correction is not only a lame practise but usually sounds bad too. Even if you can't hear the software at work you can still hear too much of that over-perfect glossiness and not enough of the voice. I've sung harmony in every band I've ever done and if there was a part I couldn't sing I simply wouldn't sing it. If a digitised correction genuinely sounds better than your vocal then you shouldn't be singing. Get some vocal lessons or work a bit harder on your performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 We're looking at getting on of these for our band. Not so much for auto-tune (although we'll probably use it while writing), more for inspiration and beefing out the sound, adding a bit of harmony and general effects. Used in the right way it's a tool rather than a cheat. Plus the voicelive 2 fits with our on stage setup anyway as we program our drums etc and can feed it the relevant keys as it goes aswell as kicking in effects and patches automatically from the computer. If people take a dislike to it... my advise? Don't come see us We're on a mission to sound the best we can sound and to get our recorded sound live we need something like this as we layer our vocalist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 There's a 3-piece band that plays all over West London called Leech, rock covers, nothing very unusual. The singer/guitarist uses a full array of pedals to do all sorts of clever things, both with his guitar and with his vocals. In particular he uses 3-part harmonies (with himself) in a lot of places, all of them entirely appropriate, with the harmonies being triggered by the chords he's playing. I take my music pretty seriously, and I love singing live harmonies, but there's no doubting that this guy is good and that he uses the effects really well. Horses for courses ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted October 8, 2012 Author Share Posted October 8, 2012 [quote name='charic' timestamp='1349695284' post='1829120'] We're looking at getting on of these for our band. Not so much for auto-tune (although we'll probably use it while writing), more for inspiration and beefing out the sound, adding a bit of harmony and general effects. Used in the right way it's a tool rather than a cheat. Plus the voicelive 2 fits with our on stage setup anyway as we program our drums etc and can feed it the relevant keys as it goes aswell as kicking in effects and patches automatically from the computer. If people take a dislike to it... my advise? Don't come see us We're on a mission to sound the best we can sound and to get our recorded sound live we need something like this as we layer our vocalist. [/quote] That is ok..will you be telling people you do this or is it really obvious..? or would you rather people didn't twig..? I think this is the crux of the problem Of course, we know this stuff happens in the industry and we expect it from Cowell and Britney and the like.. but I tend to be from the LIve is Live school or you aren't upto much.. Was watching a band 'Within Tempration' online..and that girl can really sing but not one BV amongst them in a 6 piece band.. WTF..!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1349698468' post='1829180'] That is ok..will you be telling people you do this or is it really obvious..? or would you rather people didn't twig..? I think this is the crux of the problem Of course, we know this stuff happens in the industry and we expect it from Cowell and Britney and the like.. but I tend to be from the LIve is Live school or you aren't upto much.. Was watching a band 'Within Tempration' online..and that girl can really sing but not one BV amongst them in a 6 piece band.. WTF..!!!! [/quote] It will most likely be very obvious, I'm currently working on learning backing vocals but I have some serious learning to do first as well as a current confidence issue. We don't mind if people know, we'll probably mention it on our facebook page, there's nothing to hide etc. We like our songs how they're recorded and we can currently get close but this will help a consistent sound at all venues aswell as giving us a bit more of a "polished" feel And we're only a 3 piece band... I wonder if we provide "the most metal per musician" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottomE Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 [quote name='crez5150' timestamp='1349688300' post='1829004'] A lot of the tunes we play (Disco genre) are originally big production numbers with lots of backing box. The lead vox is backed up by myself and the guitarist... but then we drop in further vox to give a much bigger/thicker spread. [/quote] I guess if you are trying to copy the original one of these might be a useful tool - if only it sounded nice. Even then it just winds me up in an old git kind of illogical way I'd prefer to hear a band use their own abilities and play tunes that sound good with the lineup that they have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crez5150 Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 [quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1349726104' post='1829764'] I guess if you are trying to copy the original one of these might be a useful tool - if only it sounded nice. Even then it just winds me up in an old git kind of illogical way I'd prefer to hear a band use their own abilities and play tunes that sound good with the lineup that they have. [/quote] Like I said earlier..... it's all in the parameter control. I really like having it in the band now although at first I was a bit sceptical. It's opened up a lot of possibilities that were not there before.... the band sounded awesome before we bought this in... we sound f***ing awesome now ;o) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
police squad Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 used with care they're great. I use one, with my lot, John. Only on Ballroom blitz and Take it on the run where I need a high harmony (which I would sing, if I wasn't the singer and could do BVs) Very useful on the Muse song Knights of Cydonia, which I have sung with the band that JTUK is talking about. That was an old digitech unit from the 90s. It works well because it sounds like the muse thing. Autotune, not on my watch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted October 9, 2012 Author Share Posted October 9, 2012 With the track you mentioned..it would be quite obvious the vocals were treated Martin, so that is less of a 'con; trick, as it were, in my eyes. But since I mentioned the whole thing... I am pretty surprised how many people use it round here... gob-smacked really, which just highlights my not liking the process, more than anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 [quote name='crez5150' timestamp='1349726280' post='1829772'] Like I said earlier..... it's all in the parameter control. I really like having it in the band now although at first I was a bit sceptical. It's opened up a lot of possibilities that were not there before.... the band sounded awesome before we bought this in... we sound f***ing awesome now ;o) [/quote] Agreed. I've heard some really clever use of vocal effects, often used about 10% lower than most people would set it, and it's the difference between 'cheesy' and 'woah!' #technicalterms Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
police squad Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 JT, Dave Collins uses one too!! He bought the same as me. I also use mine a little more in my Duo, (it's great on Easy like sunday morning). Also another usefull part of it is effects. I can mix my acoustic guitar and voice and harmanies, with FX and go into one PA channel, yet still retain control of everything. As you say, if you're out to deceive people, then you're ridiculous!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted October 9, 2012 Author Share Posted October 9, 2012 Martin, That is what I meant by being gob smacked by how many round here use it. He told me he used one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
police squad Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 (edited) he copied me!! there's no auto tune on our ones. Just harmonies and FX. And when you've only got one backing singer (like we have) it does help. Although both our drummer and lead guitarist now have microphones, we're not particularly enjoying what comes out of their mouths!! I've not seen Dave use his, so can't comment on it. Edited October 9, 2012 by police squad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Stumbled across this as a great example of tasteful use of electronically generated harmonies, subtle but does enough to reeeally lift the piece. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMIIuh5Zshk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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