First Experience with Rickenbackers

[gsgbass]

I compared the price of the Fender Select Jazz, or Precision to the Rickenbacker 4003. I like the 4003 better, and at that price of the 4003, it's $350.00 less than the Fender Select.

[4000]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1352761891' post='1867241']
My main one is pretty much as good as could possibly be for the price.
[/quote]

Which could also probably be said about a Sue Ryder and a Fodera.

What is it, just out of interest?

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='4000' timestamp='1352896003' post='1868921']
Which could also probably be said about a Sue Ryder and a Fodera.

What is it, just out of interest?
[/quote]

Its a bass.

Edit: Oh yeah, guess from the mention of other brands, you think the writing on the headstock imparts special properties to the function of an instrument. This one says 'Better than yours' on it, so there you go. Much cheaper and more effective to have that written on it and spend the money on stuff that actually makes for a good instrument.

Edited November 14, 2012 by Mr. Foxen

[4000]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1352902622' post='1869116']
Its a bass.

Edit: Oh yeah, guess from the mention of other brands, you think the writing on the headstock imparts special properties to the function of an instrument. This one says 'Better than yours' on it, so there you go. Much cheaper and more effective to have that written on it and spend the money on stuff that actually makes for a good instrument.
[/quote]

Oh, that's really helpful, thanks. I [i]was[/i] actually interested. What if I'd been so impressed by how much you thought of it that I'd wanted to go and try one? You seem to be making an awful lot of assumptions about peoples motivations for buying instruments.

I once bought a Westone Quantum simply because I loved it. Same for the Hohner Jack I bought which I liked better than a room full of far more expensive stuff. They could have said "Nads" on them for all I cared, or nothing at all, like the bitsa Strat I helped a friend put together. Oh, and I'm referring to them by brand to give you a reference point; it's called communication.

As I've said before, it's quite possible to like something for what it actually is rather than what it says on it. If I like a Picasso, is it only because Picasso painted it? Can't I like it simply because I like it and [i]it happens to be [/i]a Picasso? Can't I like Picasso's work for any other reason than because it's got his name on it? By your reasoning it would appear not; I'd simply be blinded by that fact. Nice world view.

I don't generally like Rics because they say Rickenbacker on them, I generally like them because I like the way they sound, look and feel; they simply happen to be Rics and for clarity I obviously refer to them as such. If I was talking about my mate Keith I'm going to refer to him by his name, not because it holds some sort of mystical quality but because it might help people have an idea who I'm talking about. "Oh yes, I know him" or "never heard of him".

I don't think Rics are inherently better than other basses. I only think that in most instances they're better [i]for me[/i]. For someone else they could be the worst thing in the world; who am I to tell other people what's best for them? Everyone should make up their own mind about what works for them.

So, your bass is a bass. What does it look like? What's the configuration? What do you like about it? Elaborate. If you're not interested in discussing basses what are you doing on a bass forum?

[Mr. Foxen]

If you want to try it, you'd have to come round my house and do so. Brand isn't a relevant reference point because it bears no relation to the substance of a bass. I was asked to suggest a bass of substance. And since I've been playing this one for many years, and continue to do so in favour of a great many others, I can say with absolute certainty, that it is an excellent instrument. The writing on the headstock is absolutely irrelevant to that. For the name thing if I'm asked to suggest a good guitar tech, I'll point someone at a specific guy, once I've established a few specifics, as opposed to going 'just go for any guy called Jones', because not all Jones' are the same person.

I like my bass because when I choose to play bass, this is the bass I like to play. This one, not any other ones that are similarly configured.

[quote name='4000' timestamp='1352934713' post='1869667']
If I like a Picasso, is it only because Picasso painted it?
[/quote]

See, if you'd said 'painting' instead of the first 'Picasso' it might have looked like you meant it.

Edited November 14, 2012 by Mr. Foxen

[Musky]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1352936236' post='1869691']
If you want to try it, you'd have to come round my house and do so. Brand isn't a relevant reference point because it bears no relation to the substance of a bass. I was asked to suggest a bass of substance. And since I've been playing this one for many years, and continue to do so in favour of a great many others, I can say with absolute certainty, that it is an excellent instrument. The writing on the headstock is absolutely irrelevant to that. For the name thing if I'm asked to suggest a good guitar tech, I'll point someone at a specific guy, once I've established a few specifics, as opposed to going 'just go for any guy called Jones', because not all Jones' are the same person.

I like my bass because when I choose to play bass, this is the bass I like to play. This one, not any other ones that are similarly configured.
[/quote]
Sorry Oli, but I've got to say I don't think that cuts it. It pretty much renders your post entirely pointless, especially as you don't attach a price point to the bass which plays 'as good as could possibly be for the price'. Which of course was the point of 4000's post. It also fail's to answer Cairobill's post which prompted your reply in the first place.

As things stand you're just announcing "I've got a nice bass", which presumably you got for a good price. It doesn't really move things along much.

Edited November 15, 2012 by Musky

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Musky' timestamp='1352938111' post='1869717']
Sorry Oli, but I've got to say I don't think that cuts it. It pretty much renders your post entirely pointless, especially as you don't attach a price point to the bass which plays 'as good as could possibly be for the price'. Which of course was the point of 4000's post. It also fail's to answer Cairobill's post which prompted your reply in the first place.

As things stand you're just announcing "I've got a nice bass", which presumably you got for a good price. It doesn't really move things along much.
[/quote]

The point of the substance thing being that the mystique built around the brand has no substance, but serves to maintain a high price. A concious decision has been made to pursue that end. The real substance of an instrument is down to the player to a massive extent. All of the branding stuff is value to a dealer, and is essentially insubstantial, it is just theory. As in, 'in theory, a cheap Chinese bass is inferior to an expensive American one', but in practice, the cheap Chinese one is massively better, because the practice is in the playing, and I can only absolutely say that about a bass I've been playing in favour of other basses. Having a 2mm action etc is still theoretical, in itself it doesn't make the bass good because it might still be unsuited to the player, although it has a contribution to make. But a brand name contributes nothing but resale value, and resale value is only good for basses you don't want to play.

[4000]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1352936236' post='1869691']
If you want to try it, you'd have to come round my house and do so. Brand isn't a relevant reference point because it bears no relation to the substance of a bass. I was asked to suggest a bass of substance. And since I've been playing this one for many years, and continue to do so in favour of a great many others, I can say with absolute certainty, that it is an excellent instrument. The writing on the headstock is absolutely irrelevant to that. For the name thing if I'm asked to suggest a good guitar tech, I'll point someone at a specific guy, once I've established a few specifics, as opposed to going 'just go for any guy called Jones', because not all Jones' are the same person.

I like my bass because when I choose to play bass, this is the bass I like to play. This one, not any other ones that are similarly configured.



See, if you'd said 'painting' instead of the first 'Picasso' it might have looked like you meant it.
[/quote]

Another helpful, informative post. Well done. While I'm interested in the bass you play, I'd prefer not to have to travel the length of the country to find out its got more strings than I need or that it weighs 15 lbs. A starting point would have been nice.

Ah well, I tried. I think next time I'll go on a cooking forum to talk about tennis rackets. Because all hell might break loose if I mention a particular type of potato by name.

FWIW, you appear to have chosen to completely miss my point about the Picasso. Oh sorry, [i]painting[/i].

Everybody move along, nothing to see here.....

Oh, one other thing. You state that "not all Jones's are the same person" and "this one, not any other ones that are similarly configured". In a previous thread when I stated pretty much the same about my particular pair of Rickenbackers you used that as an excuse to bash their consistency. Ironic that, seeing as your argument is therefore rendered inconsistent.

Edited November 15, 2012 by 4000

[4000]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1352940665' post='1869732']
The point of the substance thing being that the mystique built around the brand has no substance, but serves to maintain a high price. A concious decision has been made to pursue that end. The real substance of an instrument is down to the player to a massive extent. All of the branding stuff is value to a dealer, and is essentially insubstantial, it is just theory. As in, 'in theory, a cheap Chinese bass is inferior to an expensive American one', but in practice, the cheap Chinese one is massively better, because the practice is in the playing, and I can only absolutely say that about a bass I've been playing in favour of other basses. Having a 2mm action etc is still theoretical, in itself it doesn't make the bass good because it might still be unsuited to the player, although it has a contribution to make. But a brand name contributes nothing but resale value, and resale value is only good for basses you don't want to play.
[/quote]

But you’re contradicting yourself by judging an instrument on brand name, pricepoint and country of origin, instead of on its own merits. Also, with regards to pricing, costs are cheaper in China and therefore you're always likely to get better value for money (if you look at many USA made guitars, they're pretty similar prices to each other, give or take). However that doesn't mean the bass you buy will be better, because it's all subjective. Even a bass that is built fantastically well at a great price point may not be a great musical instrument in your terms, may not work for you, because that is once again subjective, assuming you believe in the concept in the first place. I agree with your point about the playing being most important, but you have to want to pick the bass up in the first place and it has to satisfy whatever needs you may have (comfort, playablity, sound, aesthetic, reliability etc).

The only thing that matters at the end of the day is whether the instrument, wherever it was made, however much it costs, whatever its brand (or not) works for you. That doesn't mean that someone's perfect instrument (or as near as such a thing is) couldn't possibly be a "brand" one; it doesn't mean they've simply been hoodwinked. It's still quite possible that a Rick, a Fender, a Musicman or whatever, even if it's a specific instrument that's not necessarily representative, may suit a player for far more valid reasons than what it says on the headstock. Some may even find they like an instrument in spite of their [i]negative[/i] expectations. Will an instrument be any better or worse for simply taking the logo off? No.

Edited November 15, 2012 by 4000

[Mr. Foxen]

But if the logo makes it cost 4 to 5 times as much as an otherwise equivalent instrument, it throws the value for money right out the window. Which is the whole point of the exclusivity being easier to sell than substance, making a good instrument is quite difficult. Stuff can be inconsistent when you can buy 5, pick the best of them and bin the rest for the price of a single inconsistent instrument with an expensive logo.

[4000]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1352988905' post='1870200']
But if the logo makes it cost 4 to 5 times as much as an otherwise equivalent instrument, it throws the value for money right out the window. Which is the whole point of the exclusivity being easier to sell than substance, making a good instrument is quite difficult. Stuff can be inconsistent when you can buy 5, pick the best of them and bin the rest for the price of a single inconsistent instrument with an expensive logo.
[/quote]

I may agree if I could find an equivalent instrument. But there isn't one. Because I want the neck to be a specific way, I want it to have specific features, both functional and aesthetic, and nobody else makes that instrument. They never did, not even the copiers. Regardless, I think you're too easily dismissing the effect on pricing of country of origin. Also, it's quite possible that the best of the cheaper 5 instruments may still not satisfy you in the way that the best example of the more expensive instruments can. Or vice versa. Again, to me it's about finding the instrument that works best for you, not how much it costs. Of course most of us are constrained to some degree or other but if the instrument that suits me better costs more, so be it. Although FWIW, my main Ric cost me £490 in 1993. Not a huge sum even then. And I didn't even consider buying it until I picked it up and played it, surely the best test of all.

[Mr. Foxen]

Country of origin has no contribution to the substance of an instrument. Nor does price. Substance can come at a cost, because you can have an instrument made to fulfil most things if the luthier is skilled enough, and you are honest enough in knowing and communicating what you want, the trick there is telling them what you want to achieve not telling them how to achieve it, because they know that part better than you.

[Highfox]

As much as I'm enjoying treading this thread (as a new owner of a Rick) ..with the utmost respect I think we should put this thread to rest now.

[4000]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1353005352' post='1870454']
Country of origin has no contribution to the substance of an instrument. Nor does price. Substance can come at a cost, because you can have an instrument made to fulfil most things if the luthier is skilled enough, and you are honest enough in knowing and communicating what you want, the trick there is telling them what you want to achieve not telling them how to achieve it, because they know that part better than you.
[/quote]

If price isn't important (and it isn't really) why do you constantly stress it as a negative/positive? And though price and country of origin may not be important, country of origin does have an affect on price, and yes, you also keep referring to that.

This is (once again) beginning to remind me of Syd Barrett's "Have You Got It Yet?"

Highfox, our discussions often go on this way, to my eternal amusement. I think you're right, and once again we should knock it on the head....'til next time.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='4000' timestamp='1353015936' post='1870647']
If price isn't important (and it isn't really) why do you constantly stress it as a negative/positive? And though price and country of origin may not be important, country of origin does have an affect on price, and yes, you also keep referring to that.

[/quote]

Because paying for nothing is a waste of money, and money is a finite resource for most people. It is a very real thing, as the exchange medium to purchase an item to perform a function, you can pay for function, or you can pay for exclusivity from a marketing strategy, with the corresponding reflection on which you rate more of your music or your image.

[Pow_22]

*Pops head in, shouts ''Rickenbackers are sh!t'', then runs off like a little school kid*

[4000]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1353029371' post='1870835']
Because paying for nothing is a waste of money, and money is a finite resource for most people. It is a very real thing, as the exchange medium to purchase an item to perform a function, you can pay for function, or you can pay for exclusivity from a marketing strategy, with the corresponding reflection on which you rate more of your music or your image.
[/quote]

So it is important. Then it isn't. Then it is. Have You Got It Yet?

And we're done, if only to save the sanity of the rest of Basschat.

Edited November 16, 2012 by 4000

[Roger Evans]

Always fancied a Rick myself. Very distinctive sound.

[gsgbass]

It is what you make of it.

[Chest Rockwell]

it is something i cant justify spending that kind of money on! (or at least, I dont have enough spare wonga to throw around on guitars)

[Highfox]

I'm totally smitten with mine, been worth the over inflated price to me

[iiipopes]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1353029371' post='1870835']
Because paying for nothing is a waste of money, and money is a finite resource for most people. It is a very real thing, as the exchange medium to purchase an item to perform a function, you can pay for function, or you can pay for exclusivity from a marketing strategy, with the corresponding reflection on which you rate more of your music or your image.[/quote]
I remember hearing a lecture of something similar to that in economics class at university decades ago. I would dare to say that in the case of Rickenbacker, the function markets itself, and the demand/supply curve orders itself accordingly. Mr. JH of RIC is a master of balancing supply with demand to keep the price up where it is, so new instruments do not seem that much more expensive than good used instruments. The bottom line is that the quality of the instrument and its inimitable tone are what drive the market in this instance. The variance is that unlike a lot of products, the marketing is done as much by the respective consumers, both the owners/players and the audience, as the company itself.

[gsgbass]

I'm glad I was able to do the deal on my 4003 when I did. Any other time in the past never worked out, cash wise. I love it.