51m0n Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1349876070' post='1831626'] Si - this [url="http://soundcloud.com/kilta/sets"]http://soundcloud.com/kilta/sets[/url] was done live on about 14 channels, no acoustic treatment but a massive room. Obviously the lack of vocal helps a lot, but I reckon it sounds pretty good. Hopefully not what you'd refer to as a demo but i'll defer to your superior judgment Surely the "vibe" you get from tape is all to do with the sound of recording to tape, rather than the performance going on to the tape. [/quote] Sounds fine mate. Very nice! A few questions then, you had a big room, really really big? The bigger the space the less treatment you need. Hence this sounds fine, and the more spill you can live with - because the spill sounds natural and enhances the overall sound. How much did you try and seperate the amps from the drums? How long have you been recording in that room, and how much have you tweaked the setup to get this result? Would you honestly say it was more or less time than you could reasonably expect to spend in a commercial project/demo studio? How much have you done in the mix to sharpen this up? How long has that taken? Its a fine mix of a perfectly acceptable recording, and the result sounds fantastic, but the point is it was done by you for the sheer love of it, and every step along the way was a learning experience validated by the facts that you love it, you learn every time you record, and you are saving yourself tonnes of cash. You cant run a commercial studio like that though, because no one wants to spend the kind of time (therefore money) it takes to go along step by step - you need a result yesterday, you need it to be killer every time. Nevertheless other than your skills the biggest asset you have is that space to record in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Hey if its good enough fo rthe Stones its good enough for anyone... http://mixonline.com/recording/interviews/audio_rolling_stones_start/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 (edited) Si - yes, it's a massive room. I think the reason I got good at doing that particular band is we would record every practise, and each time when I got home I would tweak the mix slightly. I never changed the recording set up from how it was to begin with so it would improve each time. It's a massive room but very bassy. The bass rig in there has all of the low end taken out and still sounds huge. I think my point was that technology is opening doors to more people, and it's not always a negative thing - in my example I put together a cheap digital recording set up and use it to capture live performances, rather than create ultra-processed pop-mush EDIT: Sorry, forgot about seperation. There is absolutely no attempt made to seperate the amps. We're not using headphones, just set up to practise with a mic ont he guitar cab, DI on bass, 12 mics on the drums/room. Edited October 10, 2012 by cheddatom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skol303 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Very interesting thread! I can't add much opinion that hasn't already been voiced, other than to say music technology is never inherently 'good or bad'. It's surely either useful to the song/genre in question, or not. A light and transparent touch for jazz/folk, a heavy handed dollop for dance music - and everything in between. To pick up on the Cher thing... I'm no fan of the gratuitous autotune used on 'Believe'. But I'm sure everybody here knows the track and it sold a heap. Innovative for its time? I'd say yes. Since greatly overused? Also yes. Now if only we could 'Turn back time' and rewrite history... [terrible pun, I'll get my coat]. PS: anybody see that Abbey Rd series a while back, when various bands recorded tracks direct to vinyl? That's gotta take some nerve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1349864460' post='1831400'] ....all fretted basses are just real basses with stabilsiers.... [/quote] Behave!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1349882135' post='1831752'] Si - yes, it's a massive room. I think the reason I got good at doing that particular band is we would record every practise, and each time when I got home I would tweak the mix slightly. I never changed the recording set up from how it was to begin with so it would improve each time. It's a massive room but very bassy. The bass rig in there has all of the low end taken out and still sounds huge. I think my point was that technology is opening doors to more people, and it's not always a negative thing - in my example I put together a cheap digital recording set up and use it to capture live performances, rather than create ultra-processed pop-mush EDIT: Sorry, forgot about seperation. There is absolutely no attempt made to seperate the amps. We're not using headphones, just set up to practise with a mic ont he guitar cab, DI on bass, 12 mics on the drums/room. [/quote] Nice stuff. And absolutely fine for what you do - if everything is captured live then obviously spill becomes less and less of an issue. However were a band to come in who needed a lot of 'help' with overdubs and drop ins, then its not longer a useable set up, since the seperation is then required or you get spill drop outs where ever there is a drop in (iff you get me). Horses for courses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 I have been able to move the odd kick or snare but other than that, yeh, the bleed is terrible. I'd like to make some "Gobos" or whatever you call them, when I have the money... Anyway back to the OP, I would say that yes, to a certain extent technology is making some people lazy (or enabling lazy people to make music). I guess it's down to producer/engineer types to stand their ground and demand good performances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 [quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1349890529' post='1831899'] To pick up on the Cher thing... I'm no fan of the gratuitous autotune used on 'Believe'. But I'm sure everybody here knows the track and it sold a heap. Innovative for its time? I'd say yes. Since greatly overused? Also yes. Now if only we could 'Turn back time' and rewrite history... [terrible pun, I'll get my coat]. [/quote] Autotune had been around for several years before the Cher single. I can remember using it in the late 90s when it was already well established as a plug-in, to fix a couple of errant notes in complex backing vocal part. It was quicker easier and less damaging to our singer's diva-ish ego. It's not all about T-Pain or unnaturally pitch perfect vocals you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skol303 Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1349953240' post='1832583']Autotune had been around for several years before the Cher single. I can remember using it in the late 90s when it was already well established as a plug-in, to fix a couple of errant notes in complex backing vocal part. It was quicker easier and less damaging to our singer's diva-ish ego. It's not all about T-Pain or unnaturally pitch perfect vocals you know. [/quote] Yeah, I agree. I guess the point I was trying to make is that Cher made a feature of autotune as a deliberate effect, rather than using it as a fix to correct her vocals (as you rightly mention it was used long before). Just an example of how music tech can be used in different ways for different purposes :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 And the point I was trying to make was that people have been listening to Autotuned vocals for years before they were aware of it. I bet lots of those complaining about it have heard plenty of tracks with it own that they were simply unaware it was there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1349957848' post='1832674'] And the point I was trying to make was that people have been listening to Autotuned vocals for years before they were aware of it. I bet lots of those complaining about it have heard plenty of tracks with it own that they were simply unaware it was there. [/quote] +1 How could you ever know if it were done carefully? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacDaddy Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Arguments about technology are only relevant if placed in context. Jamerson used the most technologically advanced bass of the day, Jimi Hendix used the most modern equipment he could get his hands on. As with all technology good or bad only come in to play when you decide what to do with it, but where music is concerned it can only ever be a matter of opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urb Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Many jazz albums are still cut completely live today and often feature only first or second takes - I spoke to one engineer recently who told me he's now working more and more with jazz bands as the level of playing among some well known/popular bands is so bad - and that they reply on fixing and splicing stuff in the studio to sound good - that he finds it depressing when he can actually play ALL the band's instruments better than they can - even if he admits he's a crap keyboard player... technology is just a tool, always has been, and it's always open to positive use or abuse - let's face it if you want to go completely analogue and do single live takes today - you can Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 [quote name='urb' timestamp='1349965932' post='1832840'] Many jazz albums are still cut completely live today and often feature only first or second takes - I spoke to one engineer recently who told me he's now working more and more with jazz bands as the level of playing among some well known/popular bands is so bad - and that they reply on fixing and splicing stuff in the studio to sound good - that he finds it depressing when he can actually play ALL the band's instruments better than they can - even if he admits he's a crap keyboard player... technology is just a tool, always has been, and it's always open to positive use or abuse - [i]let's face it if you want to go completely [s]analogue[/s] digital and do single live takes today - you can[/i] [/quote] Fixed for you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urb Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1349969428' post='1832913'] Fixed for you [/quote] I've told you I don't want you auto-tuning my posts OK... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 but how can digital be used for live recording when everyone knows digital sounds lifeless? [/troll] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Bwahahahahaaaaaa! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 [quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1349859969' post='1831312']Willie Weeks’ famous bass solo on Donny Hathaway's live album was recorded at a gig months after the main track was recorded, and they were spliced together in the studio. Can you hear the join? I can't. [/quote] I can't let this go unchallenged. :-) What's your source? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingson Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1349963194' post='1832788'] +1 How could you ever know if it were done carefully? [/quote] People get an idea into their head about what autotune does and then go right ahead blanket statement. It's got to be a lack of familiarity with how a lot of records get made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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