Recording recorder

[Earbrass]

Hi all,

I need to record a friend playing the recorder (soprano and tenor) for a piece I'm working on. I don't have a lot of experience mic'ing acoustic instruments, and any advice from more experienced basschatters would be appreciated as to mic position etc. I have 2 AKG C1000s at my disposal, though I'd only expect to use one. The recordings will form part of a wind quartet section, probably with a fair amount of reverb on, so I'm not too fussed about picking up room ambience.

Any thoughts?

[charic]

Are C1000's the only ones you can get hold of?

I would suggest using both at different distances. One close mic'd and one distance mic'd

Whoever you're recording will have to stand pretty damn still though as you're going to want to aim the close mic (about a foot away) at the soundhole (or whatever it's called) and directly into it aswell I expect. The other mic 3-5ft away should help if what you're picking up is quite harsh.

[51m0n]

Oh boy, big topic.

Firstly record the thing in a big space that sounds great, if you record this in a crappy sounding room, then no amount of digital reverb can remove or cover that innate crapness from the recording, you'll just add a different flavour over the top. I cannot stress this enough, dotn go for a poor sounding room with recorder!!!

The only other possiblilty is a very very dry room, and add a great sounding convolution reverb at mix time. You can get a great (really, brilliant) set of impulses for the Bricasti M7 [url="http://www.samplicity.com/bricasti-m7-impulse-responses/"]here[/url] which you can load with the free SIR vst from [url="http://www.knufinke.de/sir/sir1.php"]here[/url]

C1000's are pretty average at best. They are OK for OH's in a pinch.

If you have alittle bit of time and budget on your hands, the very very best bang for the buck small diaphragm condcensor that you can buy in Europe is the [url="http://www.lineaudio.se/linemic.htm"]CM3 [/url]from these guys [url="http://www.nohypeaudio.com/lineaudioproducts.htm"]here[/url] for about £90ea They blow C1000s away in every single respect, and are getting into Schoeps range of excellence (though Schoeps are still better).

If you have less budget you could do worse than t[url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_tbone_sc140_stereoset.htm"]hese bad boys from Thomann[/url], which have a really good physical design (very close in many physical respects the Neuman KM84) and cost about £76 a pair with a stereo bar!

When I get the time (actually its not time todo it, its time to finish the damn thing, its turning into a huge piece, including a fair amount of info on microphone design and characteristics, with a tonne of diagrammes I'm doing from scratch - I hope its worth the effort!), my next recording blog is all about stereo micing ensembles in rooms. Which would give you a lot of pointers about recording the entire ensemble, in which case you need two mics for stereo.

A very important part of recording acoustic instruments is mic position. Simplest rule to follow for a mono recording is to walk around the player listening with one ear covered and listen, when you find a spot you like the sound of put the mic capsule right there, then listen on cans and fine tune it if necessary.

Some guidelines, acoustic instruments sound from their entire physical size. If you mic closer than their longest dimension you are close micing the instrument, and the position and direction of the micropphone becomes hyper critical to the resultant tone - you tend to pick up the bit you are closest to (with an omni mic) or pointing at (with a cardiod mic).

If the performer moves whilst playing (hint the [i]all[/i] do) then you will have constantly changing tone as you record. This is a "bad thing" - dont go there with something like a recorder! (So no close micing as a rule)

If you dont get within close micing distances however, a different set of issues will arise. You are now entirely dependant on the room/instrument mix. There is something called 'critical distance' - it is the distance away from the instrument where the room reverb is of equal volume to the source. If you have one mic, and the instrument is to be in any way a feature in your recording, you do not want to be outside the critical distance, as your recording will be very washy and indistinct. If you watch the meters as you back off the mic from the source, you will see them drop in volume, as you get further away they will stop dropping in volume, this means you have gone beyond the critical distance, ie reverb volume >= source volume.

For what you want to record you want to be within the critical distance and beyond close micing distance. In a smaller room this is can be tricky to achieve, especially with such a quiet instrument!

Final points, noise - recorder is quiet, really really quiet. You need to have no background noise leaking in to the recording - close back cans are essential for everyone listening in! Recorder has nothing going on below 250Hz (unless its a bass recorder, but even then its minimal) use a high pass filter to bin any hum and low frequency noise.

Good luck, and enjoy it!

Edited October 15, 2012 by 51m0n

[Earbrass]

Wow. Thanks so much for all of that guys, very helpful.

[Huge Hands]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1350294882' post='1836807']
C1000's are pretty average at best. They are OK for OH's in a pinch.
[/quote]

This is of course my opinion, but in my experience, I have to disagree.

At the time they were new, for the price, I found these to be one of the most versatile mics on the market. OK, they might not compete with a C414 or Neumann for sizzling highs, but they should do what you're asking. They certainly worked for OHs for me, both in studio and live situations.

I remember doing a recording once where people were saying - "Wow - how did you get that piano sound?". The answer was two C1000s and some clever mic placement after a fair bit of experimentation.

I have never tried to mic a recorder, but if you have the tracks, I'd be aiming for one fairly close mic'd near the hole on the top just below the lips, and one ambient in the room as a starting point. See how that works. (EDIT: Whoops - just read charic's post - what he said!)

Edited October 15, 2012 by Huge Hands

[51m0n]

Fair enough, but IME thats perfectly in line with them being average at best.

Pretty much any sdc will do for OH's, C1000s (and I've used a matched pair for OH's for years when there wasnt anything better) certainly can cope in this task.

Micing a piano is all about placement, almost more than any other instrument I can think of (harp is a bitch too actually). If you get the placement exactly right with less great mics you will achieve a far better result than brilliant mics without the same level of attention to placement. So not surprised one jot there either.

The CM3 are in a completely different league to the C1000, hugely hugely better mic. They have one nuance you need to be aware of, they are a very very wide pattern cardiod, not an omni as they reject at 180 degrees, but still very wide, which is part of why they sound so natural too. So if you are about to close mic something and rejection is vital, there are cases where (a hihat mic for instance) a C1000 [i]may [/i]be more appropriate, but in general the C3 is going to give you a more accurate representation of what you are recording - which in this case means better IMO.

The Thomann is an unsual beastie, unlike the myriad other sdc cheap chinese clones it doesnt have the actual diaphragm about 5mm recessed into the body. Instead, and exactly like the Neumann's that all those cheap clones are copying, it has the diaphragm virtually flush with the end of the mic, which actually makes for less resonances and a hugely better mic physically - [url="http://www.oktavamod.com/"]there are people out there modding these mics[/url] (and Oktava mk 12s) for pretty serious bucks and delivering really exceptional quality results. So I'm happy to put the Thomann's up against a set of C1000s in a lot of places, except they are stupidly cheap!.

Edited October 15, 2012 by 51m0n

[charic]

[quote name='Huge Hands' timestamp='1350304160' post='1836982']
This is of course my opinion, but in my experience, I have to disagree.
[/quote]

Fair enough, I just find C1000's very harsh particularly in the highs. With something like recorder harshness could be a deal breaker IME.

Each to their own and all that

[Huge Hands]

I was just pointing out that they should do the job fine - he shouldn't really need to spend any cash on new mics, unless he's being really particular about it. If he is, then I'm sure 5im0n's choice will be very good.

I'd happily use C1000's - as we've all said it's about placement just as much as anything else.

[51m0n]

Yup, C1000s if you find the exact right place to put them could do ok.

The chance of that is improved the better the acoustic in the room.

If you have a nasty room, and a nasty mic, and a slightly harsh recorder (anyone heard a descant that didnt sound shrill like a screaming child?) I reckon you are going to struggle to tame the 'ouch' factor in the sound.

Lovely sounding room, decent player, better mics and you have far more successful placement options already, so a better chance of a good capture.

IME....

If I had this to record I might even try a Cascasde Fathead II with a Lundahl trannie, if the recorder sounded harsh.

Edited October 15, 2012 by 51m0n

[Earbrass]

Not sure how "nasty" the room is - but the player is very good and she has some nice instruments, so if it comes out sounding horrid it's going to be all my fault. If it doesn't work out, I've still got the options to go into a local studio for a half-day, or as a last resort use the fake MIDI recorder sound that is currently acting as a "place-holder" (actually it's not at all bad - but the real thing would be better if I can capture it successfully).

A new mic is a possibility - I was looking at the Shure SM81, but the CM3 is certainly much cheaper, though supply seems to be intermittent.

[ahpook]

could you borrow a mic for the session if you think the C1000's aren't up to the job ?

[51m0n]

Take a leaf out of Phill Brown's excellent book 'Are We Still Rolling' and go and find a nice local church, give them a small donation to be able to use it to do a live recording for a couple of hours. Pick one that sounds 'nice', and doesnt have any loud heating systems in operation (or anyone wondering around).

You'll be fine, since you have no lyrical content to scare the practitioners, unlike when Phill Brown tried this option