There's no substitute for cubic inches.

[Owen]

Last Friday I was messing and hooked up a TF750 to a Warwick 6x10 and a Boogie 1516. Much as I love the whole concept of small and light and super xmax and all that stuff, it really is not the same as lots of speakers pushing a lot of air

[Clarky]

Well there's no hope for me then - I've just ordered a Crazy8 from Mike Arnopol in the US, the highly lauded 1x8" speaker that all the double bassists on TalkBass seem to be raving about!

[Conan]

Not sure... My BF Vintage is a big 2x15. It shifts a LOT of air and makes a hell of a noise.

And I can lift it with one hand.

Some compromises are not compromises at all! Maybe we need to stop thinking of heavyweight boxes giving heavyweight sound? Some do, some don't. Some modern lightweight cabs produce an amazing amount of deep bass at high volumes...

But we bass players are always a bit slow to move with the times aren't we?

Edited October 16, 2012 by Conan

[alexclaber]

It's all about the cubic inches! Volume displacement, i.e. cone area x cone excursion. With that much cone area you don't need much cone excursion at all!

[Ian Savage]

I was ambivalent towards this question until Sunday, when I had the privilege of running through ThomBassMonkey's 500W GK head into Random Jon Poole's Marshall 8x10 - my GOD, I want a rig like that. Could totally lean back into it and feel the air move, haven't achieved that to such a degree with any of the rigs I've had.

[Lozz196]

Yep, weight/carrying/transport issues aside, I`m yet to play through a smaller setup that has the same "feel" and depth of sound as standing in front of an Ampeg all-valve amp, connected up to an Ampeg 810. And I don`t mean volume, as I don`t run amps particularly loud.

That said, for the gigs I do, I don`t need what that Ampeg set-up gives, so I`m happy to go with the lightweight/easily portable option.

I think those kind of set-ups are only really needed on very big stages, where you need that depth of sound - I know you can have bass through the monitors, but it doesn`t sound/feel the same - that`s where the strengths of those big stacks come in, in my opinion.

[chris_b]

Yep.

More always seems to be more.

[Musicman20]

I think bassists are actually quite a modern bunch. Just look at some of the mental basses we are happy to buy....guitarists are MUCH worse! Is it a Strat/Tele/SG/Les Paul through a Fender Twin/some form of Marshall/Mesa? It better be!

No one really thinks heavy cabs mean heavy volume, and the same goes for amps if you ask me.

BUT, and this is a big but, perhaps the tone profile of the cabs we associate with big tone is set that way, with that rock mid kick, like the Ampeg 810.

I haven't as yet found a lightweight cabinet that ticks the boxes, and I keep looking. I also think some of the price brackets are insane. As with everything, there are times when certain items sell very well, but what happens when you've spent £1000 on a lightweight 2x12, for example, then in 2 years time there is a better/lighter version or the trend changes?

Unless the neo shortage changes I don't I'll be buying a lightweight setup. I'd rather invent in a bass. It would have to try very hard to beat the tonal profile of my Aguilar DB212 which is perfect.

[JTUK]

I am surprised people are surprised.

[Roland Rock]

This thread just makes me more excited about my incoming 69er. 6x10 and 65lbs. :-)

[Owen]

I am not for a second dissing the small and lightweight thing. I have totally signed up to it and could not haul those two cabs around even if I wanted to. I am not looking at a neo vs heavy scenario. It was just exciting to have a wall of air moving. I'm sure 2 lightweight 2x15" cabs would do exactly the same thing.

[Ghost_Bass]

Having moved from a 2x10 + 1x15 Trace stack to a single Midget T under a Shuttle 9.0 i can say that my sound had a big improve in definition and portability. It works better for my pub gigs than the old Trace tower and nobody ever complained they couldn't hear the bass (quite the opposite very frequently ), i'll go lightweight any time unless i find myself on a situation where i'll be playing in a big stage with roadies to carry my gig, i think i'll order a Super12T from Alex if that ever comes up!

[neepheid]

I can't see myself ever wanting anything bigger than a 4x10, particularly as I've got a nice light cab already (Zoot - pre Purple Chili). I take a rear ported 1x10 combo on its own to band rehearsals and it makes itself heard right enough

It's maybe not the same as an 8x10, but I think these nuances are lost on most folk so as far as I'm concerned it would be a personal indulgence that I can't be bothered with the aggravation of storing and transporting.

[Ed_S]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1350377561' post='1837896']
Yep, weight/carrying/transport issues aside, I`m yet to play through a smaller setup that has the same "feel" and depth of sound as standing in front of an Ampeg all-valve amp, connected up to an Ampeg 810. And I don`t mean volume, as I don`t run amps particularly loud.
[/quote]

Shame more people don't realise that last bit. At the weekend I went to a gig in a moderately sized venue (couple of hundred capacity, maybe) and ended up getting blasted by an Ampeg SVT whatever-pro (5, I think) and two 8x10 fridges, one either side of the drummer. There was no such restraint in terms of volume, and whilst the Precision / Ampeg was pretty awesome to behold for the first few bars, it was ultimately just ridiculous overkill and ruined the gig. I think what I'm saying is that I'm all for appropriate.

[WinterMute]

In the 80's I ran a GK 800RB bi-amped into an Ampeg 8x10 and a TE 4x10, I played a 5 string Thumb and it sounded awesome... 400 watts was plenty to shift the air and the decibels, however it weighed slightly more than the car I use to shift it around in and I was young, strong and stupidly keen... I also only ran one basic bass sound, and this is the key element.

I'm 48 now, I play 5 string fretted and fretless and the bass sound shifts to suit the style and content of each song occasionally during songs, I need a rig that shifts the air and the db, but can cope with the different tonality and playing styles I employ, plus it has to be small and light...

I have a Pod XT pro and a Crown XTi1000 awaiting a Big Twin T from Alex, I fully expect it to be able to outperform the old rig. I love 8x10 and large scale rigs as much as the next Teutonic Bass Monster, but sometimes technology and the application of knowledge and design comes up with something different.

I'll let you know if Alex, (and by extension, myself) are right.

[v8bass]

Im with the OP on this ..

waiting for my new rig to arrive ...

[attachment=121226:disaster area.jpg]

Gary
v8 ( currently upsizing )

[LawrenceH]

I'd be interested in knowing more about how people perceive low frequency sound in the nearfield - subjectively, I think bigger cabs up close do sound more 'massive' than smaller ones. High excursion and more power can compensate for larger area in terms of overall SPL but up close, a larger cab would give a more even LF dispersion over a body than smaller - however this wouldn't be significant further away. How many people find that small 'super' cabs sound more like the real thing from further away? How vibration is perceived and integrated with signals from the ear strikes me as an interesting topic and I'd be curious to try those rumble packs like the tecamp one, see what difference they made.

[brensabre79]

I agree its about cubic inches, and also agree with Lozz in that standing next to an Ampeg fridge, even if its not would up means you can feel the air moving. But I think one reason that those huge towers work is because the speakers are at head, and more importantly, ear height.

I played a gig the other night where the stage space was small and I had to put my S12 up on top of the other bass players 1x15 combo. The tweeter and top 12" of my S12 were less than a foot away from my head and directly in line with it. Needless to say I wasn't turned up loud but I definitely felt the air moving past my ears and for the first time in a long time I was turning down (well, trying to - the amp was having none of it!) and everyone else was saying "turn up, turn up" I might start using an amp stand or something to get my speaker elevated in future. I've been banging on about it to the guitarists for years... get your amp up high, it'll sound so much better!

[JTUK]

Will it...?? it might be right in your ear, but is that the best place to mix for a room..???
Less of an issue if you are running FOH, but a mix for you might not be a mix for anyone else, not the drummer, not the band..???

[brensabre79]

Well it will if your guitaist puts his amp on the floor facing the back of his ankles and then turns up incredibly loud because he can't hear himself. Simple answer is to put it on a chair (or stand for the well heeled).
My suggestion was that the reason the big stacks are popular isn't because they are loud, or big, but because there is a speaker in line with your ears, so you are hearing more like the sound the people several feet away are hearing because you are in-line with the dispersion.

Also, I think its been established with the popularity of products like the Gramma Pad that getting your speaker off the floor is a good thing.

The problem I have had in the past is everyone telling me I'm too loud but not really being able to hear myself clearly. Sure I can feel the bass through the floor, but can't hear the nuances like pitch and tone. Raising my cab up high was a revelation in that it reminded me of the days I used to have two 4x10s stacked. But not the days when I had a single 18" folded horn design (which was the same size as 2 4x10s). ergo, I think its down to the position of the speaker rather than the size of the cab.

[thumperbob 2002]

Bass is the bottom therefore cabs should be where nature intended- on the floor

[alexclaber]

[quote name='thumperbob 2002' timestamp='1350403086' post='1838343']Bass is the bottom therefore cabs should be where nature intended- on the floor
[/quote]

I've yet to see a double bassist, tuba player or pipe organist performing lying down! Any why do marching bands not wheel the bass drum along the ground?

There are two things to consider with the big vs small cab thing: Are you standing so close that you're in the nearfield? And how far off-axis from speakers that produce your critical midrange are you? A tall stack can get full boundary reinforcement from the floor whilst also having speakers reasonably close to on-axis whilst you're standing in the nearfield. If you accept that the rest of your band and the audience aren't in the nearfield, and therefore you'd have a better perception of your sound if you too stood in the farfield, and you can get far enough from a smaller rig to be reasonably close to on-axis (the better off-axis the rig is, the further from on-axis this can be) then a smaller rig which can really move air can feel just as epic as a big rig.

[Wiggybass]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1350394581' post='1838196']
I'd be interested in knowing more about how people perceive low frequency sound in the nearfield - subjectively, I think bigger cabs up close do sound more 'massive' than smaller ones. High excursion and more power can compensate for larger area in terms of overall SPL but up close, a larger cab would give a more even LF dispersion over a body than smaller - however this wouldn't be significant further away. How many people find that small 'super' cabs sound more like the real thing from further away? How vibration is perceived and integrated with signals from the ear strikes me as an interesting topic and I'd be curious to try those rumble packs like the tecamp one, see what difference they made.
[/quote] This, to me at least, is a [i]very[/i] interesting question, and one I've asked of various clever people (including speaker designers) without ever really getting to the bottom of it (or...maybe I just didn't understand the answer...hmmm...). Fletcher-Munson curves graphically demonstrate how fast the efficiency of our hearing tails off at low frequencies, see here:

http://www.physics.mcgill.ca/~guymoore/ph224/notes/lecture13.pdf

(The whole thing is worth reading if you're genuinely interested)

For ages I assumed that one had to be standing at least one whole wavelength away from a LF source to receive it 'in full' as it were, but apparently this is not the case. The fact is though that, certainly as regards very low frequencies (like the open B on a five-string, about 30Hz), the level standing next to my backline can be quite modest whilst knocking people's drinks over at tables twenty feet away, and I don't know why.

At the same time, I've mixed FOH at a small club gig where the support act used my backline (a Markbass F1 driving a single Bergantino AE112), which filled the room so comfortably that I took it out of the PA totally. A 410 would have been louder but quite possibly no more 'massive' for that room - does that make sense?

LF dispersion is a complex topic. Controlling it usefully has been perhaps the single greatest advance in PA in the last decade, but doing it takes quite a bit of DSP power, extensive control over individual enclosures and specific physical arrangements of multiple cabinets to provide 'beam steering' through selective phase cancellation. I've yet to see any bass backline equipment that even claims to provide dispersion control - and I don't think I will either!

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Wiggybass' timestamp='1350406116' post='1838405']For ages I assumed that one had to be standing at least one whole wavelength away from a LF source to receive it 'in full' as it were, but apparently this is not the case. The fact is though that, certainly as regards very low frequencies (like the open B on a five-string, about 30Hz), the level standing next to my backline can be quite modest whilst knocking people's drinks over at tables twenty feet away, and I don't know why.[/quote]

This is due to direct and reflected sounds interacting. When the direct and reflected sound are approximately in phase you get a peak at that frequency and location, when they're approximately out of phase you get a dip. It's very obvious when messing around with bass cabs in our business unit as most of the boundaries are thick concrete so you get very clear reflections - run a frequency sweep and at certain spots and frequencies it can be completely silent, take a step or two to one side and full loudness is back.

[quote name='Wiggybass' timestamp='1350406116' post='1838405']LF dispersion is a complex topic. Controlling it usefully has been perhaps the single greatest advance in PA in the last decade, but doing it takes quite a bit of DSP power, extensive control over individual enclosures and specific physical arrangements of multiple cabinets to provide 'beam steering' through selective phase cancellation. I've yet to see any bass backline equipment that even claims to provide dispersion control - and I don't think I will either![/quote]

LF dispersion control with bass backline isn't something I see ever happening. To get effective dispersion control you need the speakers to be incredibly accurate, so low distortion in every way possible (frequency, time, harmonics, intermodulation etc). Something like this:

[url="http://www.meyersound.com/products/1100-LFC/"]http://www.meyersoun...ducts/1100-LFC/[/url]

And they need to be active and you need outboard DSP to control how the speakers within the array interact. Without a carefully positioned and programmed array of low frequency speakers you can't get LF dispersion control. Better to get the increase the midrange and treble dispersion as much as possible so that the direct and reflected sounds are more similar.

[Wiggybass]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1350407046' post='1838426'] This is due to direct and reflected sounds interacting. When the direct and reflected sound are approximately in phase you get a peak at that frequency and location, when they're approximately out of phase you get a dip. It's very obvious when messing around with bass cabs in our business unit as most of the boundaries are thick concrete so you get very clear reflections - run a frequency sweep and at certain spots and frequencies it can be completely silent, take a step or two to one side and full loudness is back. LF dispersion control with bass backline isn't something I see ever happening. To get effective dispersion control you need the speakers to be incredibly accurate, so low distortion in every way possible (frequency, time, harmonics, intermodulation etc). Something like this: [url="http://www.meyersound.com/products/1100-LFC/"]http://www.meyersoun...ducts/1100-LFC/[/url] And they need to be active and you need outboard DSP to control how the speakers within the array interact. Without a carefully positioned and programmed array of low frequency speakers you can't get LF dispersion control. Better to get the increase the midrange and treble dispersion as much as possible so that the direct and reflected sounds are more similar. [/quote] Er - yeah, I think I said at least some of that - anyway, ref dispersion, my interest was piqued ref this topic in backline when you said this a few weeks ago (October 3rd in fact):

[i]Yes, the player interacts with their rig, which is very different to PA usage - and arguably another reason why dispersion matters a lot with backline (even though we're one of the few companies to be focusing on its importance). If you change your playing/EQ to get your tone where you're standing, you want that tone to be heard everywhere else. That change that's happened in the PA world, realising that dispersion matters is one we're trying to pioneer in the MI world (guitar too shortly!)

Our lengthy specs are here: [url="http://barefacedbass.com/uploads/barefaced-cab-specs-jan2011.jpg"]http://barefacedbass...ecs-jan2011.jpg[/url]

The unEQ'd -3dB points for the cabs I was referring to are 71Hz (1x12"), 63Hz (1x15") and 44Hz (1x12"). Obviously you can change the response with EQ but that's the starting point. [/i]

Interesting you use Meyer as a reference - a company I know very well! BTW it's perfectly possible to create cardioid arrays with passive (i.e. non-powered cabs), you just need full DSP control for every channel of amp.

Edited October 16, 2012 by Wiggybass