Setting up amp

[jonunders]

Hi,
I am using a Mark Bass LM111 through a Barefaced S12T. My bass is a G&L 2500.
My question is Where do I start when setting up. Once I have set the gain and everything is in a flat position, what next?
Do I start with the lows/mid or highs. Tweeter on or off, Passive/active on bass.
If you follow where I coming from, then any advise or tips would be very much appreciated.
Thanks in anticipation of you help
Jonathan

[zero9]

I tend to run my amps flat and adjust the controls on the bass (my bass is active), that's usually good enough for me to get the sound I want.

It's horses for courses as it depends what type of sound you're aiming for.

For instance, if you want a 'scooped' sound, cut the mids and boost the low and high frequencies. Your G&L 2500 should be capable of producing quite a range of sounds before you need to adjust the amp, which might be worth experimenting with first.

Do you have a particular sound in mind or are you struggling to get the sound you want?

[brensabre79]

Like he said, does it sound good flat?
If you have a graphic eq or a parametric a neat trick is to boost frequencies first (I start from the lowest and work up) to see which ones you really don't like about the sound, its easier to hear and one or two will probably really stick out in the room. So cut those frequencies and you'll have your amp tuned to the room.

The rest is down to what you want. If its too trebley try this trick with some of the higher frequencies. Its a case of trial and error mainly, but after a while you'll get used to what your sound is like.

Also, I'd not do too much until you're playing with the full band because everything changes when they start playing and you might find that nasty mid frequency you got rid of is exactly the frequency you need to cut through the mix.

[Lozz196]

With Markbass amps, try adjusting the VLE or VPF first. The VPF is what I mostly use, I just put it on max, gives a scoopy sound. When I put new strings on my bass I then turn up the VLE which takes off some of the high-end twang. I always have the tweeter on. I finfd that this sound on its own isn`t that good to the ear, but in the mix it really works - plenty of low end presence, but still defined enough for each note to be heard. This is using a passive Precision.

[Big Mick]

I tend to use the VLE and my tone and pickup selector to get what sound I want. Using my Yamaha BB414 with roundwounds, through a LM3 and Traveller 102P cab. If I want the VLE all the way left or right, then I'll probably adjust the VPF the same direction as the VLE as well.
For most sounds I tend to have the EQ mildly scooped. Works for me

Cheers, Mick.

P.S. Don't forget to set the gain so it doesn't clip. I've found that basses vary enormously in output and so do peoples playing styles!!

Edited October 23, 2012 by Big Mick

[Conan]

What have you been doing up till now? That's some pretty high-end gear you have there for a total beginner, so I'm guessing that you have some experience of "setting up"? Are you having problems with the method you have used up till now?

Edited October 24, 2012 by Conan

[jonunders]

Thanks for your replies. I have been playing for about two and a half years and still having trouble getting the right sound.
I have played with all the settings, Thats why I'm asking how other BC's set up. I know the initial question sounded as if I'm new but
I need things explained in plain English.

[Jack]

Turn your amp up quite loud and turn each control until it sounds better than at any other position.

[barkin]

^this. If it sounds good, it is good. If it doesn't, change stuff until it does sound good...there's no right or wrong.

An approach that might (or might not...!) work for you, is to start with everything flat, then turn things up one at a time until you discover what aspects of your sound you don't like.

Hours of fun

[Big Mick]

Right, EQ set flat (12 O'clock) VLE and VPF both full right (5 O'clock) = a very full rounded sound good for blues etc.
VLE and VPF 12 O'clock and EQ flat = more modern sound, good for Metallica and various rock and metal stuff.
VLE and VPF full left (7 O'clock) = very bright, thin and twangy, Slap syle!!!

And don't forget that's without even touching the EQ or your guitar tone and pickup selector!!!!
I suggest checking out some of the youtube Markbass demo's as some of them are very informative.
Have fun.

Cheers, Mick.

[Lozz196]

An update to my earlier post, on my new Markbass set-up - Mini CMD121P & NY121, I have Gain on 7, everything else at midday, and it sounds great. Am sure once my strings get older I`ll need to adjust the VLE & VPF, but that for me is best place to start, all at midday. The usually for me, I cut rather than boost, figuring if I don`t like the sound, it must be something in there I want to remove. Adding to it will still keep what I don`t like.

[alexclaber]

Just sent you a document Jonathan! I'd work through getting the unplugged sound as right as possible, then plugged in with no EQ using just the neck pickup, then try with just the bridge pickup, then try with both pickups. Only then start messing with EQ etc. By breaking the process into stages you'll develop a much better understanding of how to control your tone.

[51m0n]

Wow [b]massive[/b] overuse of the VLE and VPF in here.

Those are hugely powerful filters, anything over about nine o'clock on them and you are in major danger of wrecking your tone in a mix, unless there is something very wrong with the rest of your kit (ie bass).

The VLE is unique filter on a bass amp, it is a high shelf eq with a fixed -15 to -20dB cut (cant remember the exact detail, but its to all intents and purposes a low pass filter) when it is off (fully anticlockwise) it has a center frequency of 20KHz, and when its fully on (totally clockwise) its center frequency is just 250Hz!

If you roll this all the way up you have nothing over the low mids coming through, you are in thud city central. Even at 12 O'clock you are getting into the realm of no treble, and seriously attenuated upper mids. Use with extreme caution!

A tiny bit can help if you have no tweeter attenuator and you dont want things too bright (which was its original intention on the combos MB produced with no such tweeter control). There is no need to get carried away with it in a mix though. And yes I have played blues with a P type sound, and no you wont help yourself fit into such a mix live by cutting all the top end in that situation.

The VPF is a mid scoop control, centered at 380 Hz (right in the mids) Fully anticlockwise there is 0dB attenuation at this frequency, fully clockwise you are talking 15 to 20dB of mid suck. It has a fairly wide Q, so it affects a lot of rfrequencies around it, yes out of a mix it can sound really nice, and with some basses it can sound nice if you use it in moderation (again above 9 O'clock you are getting into dangerous territory) for certain styles, but you must bear in mind that too much and you will lose your mids.

The mids are the bit we hear best, that is where your pitch info is, that is what you will compete against the guitar and snare in the mix with. Cut that and you will soon become a rumble in the mix.

So if you use these two controls together on full you are relagating your bass to not in the mix at all above about 250Hz. This is generally not a good thing....

As for EQ on the LMIII heads its a bit 'odd' IMO.

The bass control is a shelving filter that has a frequency of 40Hz, which is [i]very[/i] low for bass, most rigs dont handle that very well, IMO it would have been better centered a little higher, maybe as high as 80Hz, but what is doen is done.

The lo mid is a bell, centered at 360Hz, so if you boost this and apply VPF they virtually cancel each other out (slightly different curves, and almost the same frequency, its not exactly cancellation, but is close enough to be daft). This is a little high for my liking, but it will add some 'girth' nevertheless. Too much will be muddy though, if you are suffering from muddingess, a cut of a few dB here can help - or use the VPF, its the same diff.

The high mid is a bell that is centered at 800Hz - right where plectrum click is, and growl, and string noise, and honk, depending on how much you push it, and how you play, and what the rest of your rig comprises of.

The Hi is 10KHz, and that is [i]really[/i] high for bass, you better have a tweeter, and new roundwounds, and decent pickups (pref active)


Thats all very tech isnt it. Try this:-

1. With the band, at 'war' volume - never ever try and set your eq for a gig, unless you are playing [i]at that volume in the mix[/i]!!!! Can not stress this enough, Fletcher Munsen curves and all sorts of acoustic oddities and differences prevail at those volumes, and what sounds good in a mix will more often than not totally fail soloed. Rule 1 Soloed doesnt matter one bit!

A mix is just that, get the whole band to set up like this...

Get the drummer playing good and loud.

Then you set up as follows:-

2. Set everything flat - eq section at 12 noon, filter section full anticlockwise

3. Set your input gain so the input light doesnt quite light up (play hard, lift the gain until the blue light comes on, back it off till it stops)

4. Raise the main volume until you are as loud as the kick, nearly as loud as the snare. If you both play 4 on the floor the bass should add a note to the kick drum, and add oomph to the snare

5 Get the guitars in so they are just less than the snare, both together., They will complain that they cant hear themselves - get their cabs pointing at and closer to their heads

6 Listen for what is wrong with the bass, too little low end, too much mud, not enough girth, too much upper mid (unlikely against distorted guitar) too much top (even more unlikely)

Try and listen for what there is too much of, rather than too little of. Then turn that part down and the total volume up - cuts are less detrimental to timbre than boosts, its just how our ears work.

7 If you are struggling to hear the guitars, get one to add mids, and both to roll off a little distortion (good luck, but it always works). They should fit together and be punchier when you do this.

8 The entire band should be far quieter than before - this i good for stage volumes, hearing each other, and finally hearing the singer, who should have no trouble getting over the rest of you now.

9 Get everyone to stop and listen to each individual instrument on its own, having re-eq'ed it to fit in the mix as a whole, some will sound laughably bad on their own, but that doesnt matter, its the mix as a whole that the punters listen too, not any individual instrument.

Edited October 25, 2012 by 51m0n

[Conan]

All hail Simon - the God of Tone!

[51m0n]

Haha!

If you like

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1351164490' post='1848076']
Wow [b]massive[/b] overuse of the VLE and VPF in here.
[/quote]

Totally agree! I always start with these off. The VPF is quite useful in moderation for getting the sound a bit 'tighter' - as well as the low-mid scoop it has the effect of tilting the overall response towards the treble. A little bit reminiscent of SWR.

I like Markbass stuff but I do think the centres on their hi-mid and treble control leave an annoying gap in an important tonal region, right across the resonance peak of a typical pickup.

[Ed_S]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1351164490' post='1848076']
Wow [b]massive[/b] overuse of the VLE and VPF in here.
[/quote]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1351180207' post='1848342']
Totally agree! I always start with these off.
[/quote]

I always finish with them off, too! With a LMII and S12 (no tweeter), I've just never found any better sound in the mix than the EQ all at 12 o'clock, both filters fully off, gain set to match the output of the bass and volume set to match the output of the drummer!

[Big Mick]

Simon, I'll try some of your suggestions at our jam tonight!!!
I've even printed it out so the others (the ones who won't turn down on stage!!) can absorb your pearls of wisdom!!


Cheers, Mick.

Edited October 25, 2012 by Big Mick

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Ed_S' timestamp='1351188884' post='1848512']
I always finish with them off, too!
[/quote]

Hah, 9 times out of 10 so do I!

[51m0n]

[quote name='Ed_S' timestamp='1351188884' post='1848512']
I always finish with them off, too! With a LMII and S12 (no tweeter), I've just never found any better sound in the mix than the EQ all at 12 o'clock, both filters fully off, gain set to match the output of the bass and volume set to match the output of the drummer!
[/quote]

Me too. My sa450 into an S12t I like to boost the low mids a smidge down around 250Hz, just a tad, (like 12:30 to 1:00pm) - dont need to, just like it more, and I dont go for mud at all!

[quote name='Big Mick' timestamp='1351191414' post='1848540']
Simon, I'll try some of your suggestions at our jam tonight!!!
I've even printed it out so the others (the ones who won't turn down on stage!!) can absorb your pearls of wisdom!!


Cheers, Mick.
[/quote]

Best thing to do is take a recording device, set up like I suggested, play your set, have a break, let everyone do what they normally woudl, rerecord the set, normalise the volume of both sets and listen back to them a couple of days later with the whole band, do a blind test to see who prefers which mix.....

[jonunders]

Some excellent suggestions. Thank you. I will certainly be applying them.
Now just got to get the rest of the band to take note!

[Muzz]

Completely agree with playing with EQ in a band setting - I spent years going round and round adjusting backwards and forwards, before I realised that what sounds good in a mix with the rest of the band doesn't always sound as nice when soloed, and vice versa. What really brought it home was using my Schreoder cab - the low mid bump doesn't sound fantastic on its own, but in a band context, it really delivers. Also a big +1 for attenuating issues out rather than adding more in - it's counterintuitive at first (it just feels more natural to add more bass, or mids, or treble to a problem sound to fix it), but it can work a lot better.

As someone else said, hours of fun!

[Conan]

[quote name='jonunders' timestamp='1351238919' post='1848982']
Now just got to get the rest of the band to take note!
[/quote]

Good luck with that!

Typical of this is a comment made by our drummer following our first gig (which saw some people leaving with their hands over their ears). We suggested that he might have been a bit too loud and that maybe he could consider using his electronic kit so that we could turn him down to a level commensurate with the rest of the band...

"I paid four grand for this kit [his Sonor acoustic kit] so I'm going to bloody well use it!"

Edited October 26, 2012 by Conan

[scalpy]

My set up is reasonably similar to the OP and have to agree it's a bit fiddly to get the sound spot on. All the posts about the amp EQ are pertinent but as a G&L player I would recommend playing through as many rigs/desks with various EQs etc as possible to get an idea of what your instrument is capable of. The G&L tone can be a bit hard to pin down so you need an idea of how what you're listening to breaks down into you/instrument/amp/cab. Despite the myriad of options using a G&L pre-amp I've found that I only used to use 3 with my old rig, and 2 with this one. However, since getting these sounds about right my playing commitments have quadrupled (seriously!)- I hope you have the same luck!!

[51m0n]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1351243080' post='1849072']
Good luck with that!

Typical of this is a comment made by our drummer following our first gig (which saw some people leaving with their hands over their ears). We suggested that he might have been a bit too loud and that maybe he could consider using his electronic kit so that we could turn him down to a level commensurate with the rest of the band...

"I paid four grand for this kit [his Sonor acoustic kit] so I'm going to bloody well use it!"


[/quote]

Seen this a lot of times especially with rockier covers bands.

If he cant play his kit in a manner that suits the venue with it set up as it is then something has to change. Either he has to learn to rock out without belting the bejesus out of the kit, or he has to modify the kit to project less when he does.

How you tune a kit can dramatically change its volume. I'm not suggesting tune it wrong, but if you tune each drum to its lowest fundamental note on the batter side, and tune the resonant head lower than this (by up to a third) you can get the toms to do that cool bowww sound that drops in pitch, they wont ring as long and they wont be as loud. Dampen them a tad to stop excessive ringing.

Same with the snare, but be vicious with dampening, since it can be super loud. You can get a meatier sound from a snare like this, with less top end snap that is what really uhrts - think more 70s rock than up to date - sounds great in a mix.

The kick will probably be tuned a fifth or an octave above the lowest possible resonant frequency. When you drop it down it will sound immense, but actually be quieter - the drumer will certainly need to get the spring on his pedal turned right up to deal with the loss in bounce of the batter head, but he will soon get used to it, and the added depth to the kick will sound great, and not make any punters leave.

Like this:-
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga8Q12mKYxI[/media]

Effectively tune it for the studio more than live,.

If that doesnt work, then open up all the drums and put a folded tea towel inside on the resonant head taped to the shell. Massive drop in volume, same tone (ok similar) , no need to dampen the outside. Move up to a towel if that doesnt work. The old super dry 60s & 70s funk snare sound was achieved often by putting a fat wallet on the batter head for dampening - it makes it quieter too!

Normally its not the drummer alone though - if you dont put him through the PA and the pub is a reasonable size he usually wont be too loud - if he is then his cymbal bill is probably more than slightly impressive.

The guitarists and the bass must be set strickly to the volume of the drums when they arent going through the PA. If you listen to the mix on most rock albums the drums totally dominate the mix (after the vocals). Obviously getting the stubborn guitarists to turn down to match an unamplified drummer can be really tough, but if you do the band will sound 'just like the record' you wil get huge compliments for mixing the band to the backline 'properly' and you will not drive ounters from the pub.

The problem is that everyone has to learn to listen a bit differently, and be super careful in the placement of their amps to enable them to hear them when they are rather quieter. Using a couple of tradesmens hopup platforms to lift the amps up high enough can really help. Getting the amps back as far as you can behind and alongside the drummer, and pulling him forward a bit so he can hear them too is also useful. Or setting amps up as side fill type monitors and micing them ever so slightly in the FOH is another strategy that can help.

If your drummer says no, then he may have to find another band if you want to keep playing in those venues....

Edited October 26, 2012 by 51m0n