So a Rockinbetter isn't a Rickenbacker & a Rockinbetter isn't a Tokai?

[prowla]

8 minutes ago, Skybone said:

Did Tokai UK commission them?

They just bought a load of basses and guitars that were already in production, between 2000 & 2012. They were being sold under the guise of the "Rebelrocker" in Australia and as the Bass Collection Californian here in the UK. The location of their manufacture is still  a bit of a mystery, though more than likely China.

Tokai UK then proceeded to advertise them in the UK & European Guitar magazines, alongside the Tokai guitars & basses. Which brings us to the "Tokai Rockinbetter" "myth".

It's just iffy advertising.

Tokai Gakki did actually make Rickenbacker copy guitars and basses that were advertised in their catalogues in Japan in the late 70's & early 80's, but obviously, these were made in more smaller batches than the money making Gibson & Fender copies.

Tokai Gakki made copy Ric guitars, but not Ric basses.

As per earlier comments, there are copies of catalogues showing the 6-string guitars, but not a single picture of one showing a bass has ever emerged.

Do you have, or have you seen, a Tokai Gakki catalogue with a Ric copy bass in it?

If you do, please share it (genuinely!).

As for manufacture, the 1st run of Rockinbetters were made in Indonesia and subsequently they shifted to Chinese production.

Edited December 16, 2020 by prowla

[Jus Lukin]

-

Edited March 10, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[Marc S]

1 hour ago, prowla said:

.....So, suppose I don my entepreneurial hat and create a company and called it "Tokai GB"; I could then get a batch of "Ronniebarker" basses.......

@prowla - do it!  
"Ronniebarker" basses - that made me smile on this damp, dreary morning   

[Skybone]

4 hours ago, prowla said:

Tokai Gakki made copy Ric guitars, but not Ric basses.

As per earlier comments, there are copies of catalogues showing the 6-string guitars, but not a single picture of one showing a bass has ever emerged.

Do you have, or have you seen, a Tokai Gakki catalogue with a Ric copy bass in it?

If you do, please share it (genuinely!).

As for manufacture, the 1st run of Rockinbetters were made in Indonesia and subsequently they shifted to Chinese production.

I have seen the catalogue pictures on the t'interweb, just can't recall where I saw them.

Backstory: about 20-odd years ago, I became a bit deluded and had started playing guitar almost axclusively (sic).

During that time, as you do, I bought & sold a lot of gear, including a few Gibson LP's. Also during that time, Tokai UK had started importing Tokai Gakki instruments into the UK. The Tokai Love Rock's were gaining very favourable reviews in the UK guitar press, so I bought one. Then another... then another...

Again, during this time, I was doing a fair bit of research into Tokai guitars, and the Tokai Registry / Tokai Forum started up. During my "research", I saw a few copies of Tokai Catalogues from the late 70's, showing, not only Love Rock's, ES, Strat & Tele, P & J copies, but also copies of Rickenbacker guitars AND basses. There was a hell of a lot of misinformation regarding the "Lawsuit" era MIJ guitars & basses, so all these resources were proving invaluable to the discerning MIJ players & collectors. The market of "vintage" MIJ instruments was "hotting up", and traders from Japan started selling direct to the oversea's customers (mainly US, but some Europeans). On these sites, I saw mainly Ibanez, Kasuga, and Aria 4001 copies, but I also recall seeing a few (just a few) Tokai 4001 copies. These were generally snapped up pretty quickly by the MIIJ collectors.

Other things happened, and I ended up acquiring a small collection of late 70's Ibanez guitars, but that's another story...

[cetera]

I actually had a 'Ronniebarker" TRC made up for my Bass Collection Californian! Sold the bass but I still have the TRC. Will use it when/if I ever get a decent jetglo faker!

[BigRedX]

1 hour ago, Skybone said:

I have seen the catalogue pictures on the t'interweb, just can't recall where I saw them.

Backstory: about 20-odd years ago, I became a bit deluded and had started playing guitar almost axclusively (sic).

During that time, as you do, I bought & sold a lot of gear, including a few Gibson LP's. Also during that time, Tokai UK had started importing Tokai Gakki instruments into the UK. The Tokai Love Rock's were gaining very favourable reviews in the UK guitar press, so I bought one. Then another... then another...

Again, during this time, I was doing a fair bit of research into Tokai guitars, and the Tokai Registry / Tokai Forum started up. During my "research", I saw a few copies of Tokai Catalogues from the late 70's, showing, not only Love Rock's, ES, Strat & Tele, P & J copies, but also copies of Rickenbacker guitars AND basses. There was a hell of a lot of misinformation regarding the "Lawsuit" era MIJ guitars & basses, so all these resources were proving invaluable to the discerning MIJ players & collectors. The market of "vintage" MIJ instruments was "hotting up", and traders from Japan started selling direct to the oversea's customers (mainly US, but some Europeans). On these sites, I saw mainly Ibanez, Kasuga, and Aria 4001 copies, but I also recall seeing a few (just a few) Tokai 4001 copies. These were generally snapped up pretty quickly by the MIIJ collectors.

Other things happened, and I ended up acquiring a small collection of late 70's Ibanez guitars, but that's another story...

Sorry, but I am certain that you are mistaken. 

As I said earlier in this thread, I have a printed copy  of the 2000 Tokai catalogue and while it has photos of Tokai-branded copies of Rickenbacker guitars, none of Rickenbacker basses copies. 

You can find scans of the Tokai brochures here. I haven't found photographs of Rickenbacker bass copies in any of them. In fact, the guitars only appear in the 2000 edition. Have a look for yourself.

In 20+ years of looking on the internet I have never come across a single photograph of Rickenbacker bass copy with Tokai branding on it, nor have I found any scans of Tokai catalogues that show the basses. AFAIAC, this is because these mythical instruments do not exist.

I will be happy to be proved wrong, but I will require decent photographic evidence for it, and not someone's half forgotten memories from 20 years ago.

[Skybone]

Yes, but that's the 2000 edition of the catalogue. I didn't say anything about there being any Tokai built Ric copies in the 2000 catalogue, as I know for a fact that there weren't any because of the 70's "Lawsuit Era" instruments.

What I did say was:

3 hours ago, Skybone said:

During my "research", I saw a few copies of Tokai Catalogues from the late 70's, showing, not only Love Rock's, ES, Strat & Tele, P & J copies, but also copies of Rickenbacker guitars AND basses. There was a hell of a lot of misinformation regarding the "Lawsuit" era MIJ guitars & basses, so all these resources were proving invaluable to the discerning MIJ players & collectors.

I also know for a fact, that around 2000-ish, the "MkI" Rockinbetter basses started coming in (solo rail bridge, J style BBOT bridge pickup cover, no mounting plate, plain binding).

The "MkII" Rockinbetter started arriving circa 2003, this time with the flat bridge pickup mounting plate, the now classic "Chickenbacker" style bridge, plain binding. It was circa 2004 that the checker bound versions started arriving in the UK. They were discontinued after legal pressure in 2010, although there were still some new ones kicking around until 2011.

I bought my first MkII in 2010 after selling a 4003.

[BigRedX]

All the Tokai catalogues are in the link in my last post. If there are any Tokai-branded copies of Rickenbacker basses they will be in there somewhere. I can't find any. Can you?

Rockinbetter basses have nothing to do with Tokai. That was already established earlier in the thread.

[Skybone]

31 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

Rockinbetter basses have nothing to do with Tokai. That was already established earlier in the thread.

And I've been stating that for years.

The only association that Rockinbetter has to Tokai is that the company that brought them into Europe was called "Tokai UK" (who were based in Dinnington, South Yorkshire). It didn't help that the advertising used was branded with "Tokai UK", fuelling the misconception of Rockinbetter basses being made by Tokai. They weren't.

What I have said, is that during the mid-late 70's, at the height of the what is now known as the "Lawsuit Era", I have seen catalogues from Tokai, issued for the Japanese market, that also included copies of Rickenbacker guitars and basses.

 

[BigRedX]

17 minutes ago, Skybone said:

What I have said, is that during the mid-late 70's, at the height of the what is now known as the "Lawsuit Era", I have seen catalogues from Tokai, issued for the Japanese market, that also included copies of Rickenbacker guitars and basses.

Where? 

AFAIK all the Tokai catalogues published are in the link I posted above. I can't see any Rickenbacker bass copies in any of them. There are two Rickenbacker guitar copies in the 2000 catalogue and that is it.

If there were Tokai-branded copies of the Rickenbacker basses in existence, there would be photographs of them somewhere on the internet. One would have turned up at some point on the Digimart website, there's 55 pages of Tokai branded guitars and basses, new and second hand, (pretty much every Tokai currently for sale in Japan) there right now including a couple of 60s Hummingbirds, but not one Rickenbacker bass copy. That's because they do not exist.

[prowla]

I have never seen a Tokai branded Ric bass copy, never in my membership of Rickenfaker and other special-interest groups.

I have owned several brands of 70s Japanese copies, including Shaftesbury, Vorg, CMI, Diamond (Aria).

I have seen many other brands from the 70s, including Westminster, Aria, Ibanez, Greco Guitar, John Birch, and more.

I have never seen mention of a Tokai Ric bass copy.

I would love to see evidence that they exist.

[Skybone]

As would I.

Thing is, there is no definitive source for Tokai catalogues, there are many holes in the knowledge base.

There were loads of Ibanez fan sites circa 2000, loads of parts of catalogues, loads of holes in the knowledge of the historic models. Since then, Ibanez have published historic catalogues on their website.

 

Edited December 16, 2020 by Skybone

[Bassassin]

Just a couple of quick points:

I have been studying, researching, restoring, buying & selling MIJ guitars & basses (with a specific interest in Rick bass copies) for around 25 years, have spent the last 20 all over every MIJ-related site, forum & group on the web and have never, ever, seen a Tokai 4001/4003 copy. There is zero evidence they ever existed. There's even some doubt that the Tokai guitar copy is MIJ as it's been suggested that the catalogue it appears in crosses into early MIK Tokai manufacture.

There's more detail to the Tokai/Rockinbetter story than just the UK importer - off the top of my head, a Canadian firm called Dillon or Dillion used the brand on some crude Rick copies. They are better known however for selling fake Tokai Love Rock LP copies (Google 'Fakai') - so the plot is a bit thicker than it appears at first. Still doesn't mean Rockinbetter's in any way connected to Tokai, but it's quite strongly conflated.

The template for current Chickenbacker copies seems to go back to Korean-made Shine Fakers (made by Saehan) in the early '00s. These had the common Chickenbacker tailpiece design (with a Shine logo), Seymour Duncan pickups & mostly had small, non-Rick styled headstocks, although a few had the proper shape. They still turn up occasionally and are pretty well-made apparently, although are dimensionally inaccurate, like all modern Fakers.