So a Rockinbetter isn't a Rickenbacker & a Rockinbetter isn't a Tokai?

[iconic]

Is it a case of...



....I'd be real grateful for clarification/conformation

As I see it at the moment: So we have Rick' getting the hump over clones, fakes, replica's, snides what ever you wish to call them, but from what I read Tokai Japan should also be grumbling into their Sake as they have nothing to do with 'Tokai' Rockinbetter's, even though blurb for new and secondhand sales usually declare 'Tokai' Rockinbetter...the one I viewed didn't have 'Tokai' anywhere on the bass or come to think of it any manufacturer's brand name....which sort of made it a 'no name' bass....unless this bass was a copy of a copy

I think, the 'Tokai' part of the description is that the importer is called Tokai Ltd UK.....if so, this could be seen as a little misleading

So whats the truth, anyone know for sure?

[MB1]

MB1.
Made by Tokai but....."You've not seen me!....Right!"

[iconic]

[quote name='MB1' timestamp='1350981393' post='1845706']
MB1.
Made by Tokai but....."You've not seen me!....Right!"
[/quote]

....seen who, didn't see a thing....!

Edited October 23, 2012 by iconic

[iconic]

[b]Offical Tokai UK site...not 'ere[/b]

[b][url="http://www.tokai-guitars.co.uk/index.php?page=shop.browse&category_id=6&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=31"]http://www.tokai-guitars.co.uk/index.php?page=shop.browse&category_id=6&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=31[/url][/b]

[iconic]

or even here...

[url="http://www.tokaijapan.com/index.html"]http://www.tokaijapan.com/index.html[/url]

[Big_Stu]

I've certainly been told every time that they're made by Tokai, from the first time I saw one when they were first made (£299 ) - right up until last month.
Maybe they don't broadcast it due to [i]not wishing to offend a certain party[/i].

Edited October 23, 2012 by Big_Stu

[BigRedX]

IMO it's safest to say that unless the word "Tokai" actually appears on the instrument somewhere it's not a Tokai.

The problem is that Tokai no longer make all their own instruments in Japan but outsource to Korea and China for the cheaper end of their ranges. What makes these instruments Tokais apart from the the name on the headstock is not the factory that they were built in but the specifications and QC that they are built to. It may well be that the Rockinbetter basses are built in the same Chinese factory that also builds some Tokai branded instruments, but unless they were commissioned by Tokai in Japan and built to Tokai's specifications all it means is that they come from the same factory. That's how the big instrument building factories in the Far East work. They build to different standards as specified for anyone who will pay them. Someone is paying them to make Rockinbetter basses but it's almost definitely not Tokai.

IMO the association between Tokai and Rockinbetter is a myth perpetuated by the internet and the importers of Rockinbetters in an attempt to give the instruments some added kudos. However the real quality that is associated with Tokai instruments is from those made in Japan. The current MIK and MIC Tokais are probably a cut above most of the instruments from those countries with other branding, but they are not of the same standard as the classic Tokais from the 80s upon which the reputation of the Tokai brand has been built. You can still get MIJ Tokais but expect them to come with 4 figure + price tags by the time they reach the UK.

BTW Tokai has not had a problem with making Tokai branded Rickenbacker copies in the past. I have a Tokai Japanese catalogue from 2001 that features 3 such instruments. However they are all guitars not basses. I have never seen a Rickenbacker bass copy with the Tokai name on it.

Of course that doesn't necessarily make the Rockinbetter basses bad instruments. But the supposed connection to Tokai is tenuous to say the least and there is no actual proof other than the word of those who have a vested interest in selling them. I do believe though that the price of the Rockinbetters has become overinflated due to the Tokai name. Try one. If you like it and the price is reasonable then buy it. However don't be swayed by the Tokai name and don't expect the quality of a MIJ Tokai because it's not there.

[brensabre79]

Maybe its the ultimate karma, someone is making fake Tokai's

[Dave Vader]

Jon (bassassin) who was always the expert in these things would tell you that Tokai have absolutely nothing to do with these. I defer to his judgement, particularly because i own one, and when i bought it it was a piece of junk unfit for purpose.
Bit of twiddling and it's lovely now, but nowt like any of the genuine old Tokais i had back in the 90s, which were great.

[Beedster]

[quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1350986100' post='1845790']
Maybe its the ultimate karma, someone is making fake Tokai's
[/quote]

Ha ha, I was thinking that. How do the manufacturers of the Rockinbetters avoid the legal grief that threatens nearly all manufacturers, sellers or even owners of basses that look like that, especially given that the brand name is so clearly designed to reinforce the link?

[Musky]

[quote name='Beedster' timestamp='1350990323' post='1845869']
Ha ha, I was thinking that. How do the manufacturers of the Rockinbetters avoid the legal grief that threatens nearly all manufacturers, sellers or even owners of basses that look like that, especially given that the brand name is so clearly designed to reinforce the link?
[/quote]
At a guess, I'd imagine it's as hard for the IP holders to find the origin of the Rockinbetters as it is for us. Sure, they can compel companies to reveal their suppliers but that costs money. It's far easier to go after the small time importers who are essentially one man operations and threaten them with legal action they could ill afford to even get to the preliminary stages. The same goes for forums. Ebay/Gumtree just roll over on any Vero request, so again it's something easy to initiate.

Still, they've had a trademark on their headstock for a year now, so I'm sure it's just a matter of time before they go after companies that can afford to get lawyers to write back and wouldn't be surprised if there had already been some communication.

I'm not really up on these things, but does anyone know if they've actually initiated legal proceedings against another company? I know the Hipshot dispute was (is) quite long running, but I don't think that even then any papers were served.

[StephenFerguson]

They tried to sue fender for being better basses, and for Geddy theft.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1350986100' post='1845790']
Maybe its the ultimate karma, someone is making fake Tokai's
[/quote]

But they're not fake Tokais. The only people who say Rockinbetters have any relation to Tokai are those with an interest in "bigging them up" such as whoever is importing them into the UK and gullible people on the internet.

[Sean]

Jean-Claude Van Damme plays a character called Gibson Rickenbacker in the film Cyborg. I wonder if TC John Hall took any legal action over that?

The baddie in that film was called Fender Tremelo. I just wonder whether there was a superior Japanese version of the same film.

[RhysP]

[quote name='Sean' timestamp='1351033006' post='1846583']
Jean-Claude Van Damme plays a character called Gibson Rickenbacker in the film Cyborg.
[/quote]

It would have been great if they'd called him Daisy Rock.

[Stag]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1351033843' post='1846597']


It would have been great if they'd called him Daisy Rock.
[/quote]

Lol, thank you for that

[Mr. Foxen]

I've asked bunches of people selling 'Tokai' Rockinbetters, they've all insisted they got something to show its so, and never managed to produce it.

[StephenFerguson]

Tokai, from what I know, only ever copied good basses, the rick is iconic but its sh*te, I reckon if tokai made a rick it would be called a tokai "soft to/moderate puncher" or something along those lines, pre lawsuit tokai never attempted to hide their responsibility for production so why would the rick clones be any different?

[Bill-R]

"Tokai Ltd UK" do import Rockinbetter 4003 basses into the UK. they are made in Korea not China.
they use to show up on the Tokai Japan site but that stoped about 2000.
the are a really well made bass and sound really good.
having bought one after looking at them for almost 10 years.
don't know why Tokai would be the only importer if the had nothing to do with them.
Rockinbetter have been around for almost 30 years now and the first ones had bold on necks.
the newest ones have 22 frets and not the older 20 frets.

Big Stu
don't know where they are on sale at £299, I got mine for new for £400 and it had £65 off, most shops selling them in the uk at £465.
even at £500 its a really good bass with a three piece thro maple neck. its hard to get a good thru neck for under £500.

Edited December 14, 2012 by Bill-R

[noelk27]

Tokai Japan have no connection with Rockinbetter.

[Musky]

[quote name='Bill-R' timestamp='1355528413' post='1899755']
I belive the first Rockinbetters were made by Tokai but then switched from Japan to China in the 80s
its said that Tokai sent over some of there top staff to set up plants in China.
I think it was around 1998 that Tokai and Rockinbetter parted company.
they were still made in the Tokai factory for a while then moved to Korea and I think Cor-Tek make them.
i think the new ones (22 fret) are still something to do with Cor-tek and could be made in the Cort factorys.
they are imported into the UK from Korea. some not all have no serial numbers like the Gresch Cor-tek made guitars.
i have been told the still make them )Rockinbetter) in China but think that is the older 20 fret ones. the newer 22 fret ones are make in korea and also have a double action truss rod.
don't think that Tokai Ltd Uk have anything to do with Tokai Japan.
I have read that the owner of Tokai uk has gone over to china in the past to see the building of Rockinbetters and has increased the import of them in the last few years.
[/quote]
Colour me sceptical.

You may well be correct with any or all of that info, but it would take some hard evidence before I'd be convinced. At the moment there appears to be nothing concrete to link Tokai Japan to Rockinbetter whatsoever, and as it stands your info is peppered with enough caveats for me to remain dubious. If you do have any evidence I'd love to see it, as this topic has been brought up many times without anything definite to suggest the two companies are linked.

[noelk27]

[quote name='Bill-R' timestamp='1355528413' post='1899755']I belive the first Rockinbetters were made by Tokai but then switched from Japan to China in the 80s
its said that Tokai sent over some of there top staff to set up plants in China.[/quote]

Where in China in the 80s was Tokai Japan operating production facilities? Sure this would come as news to Adachi San. Even today, the Tokai branded instruments manufactured in China have only the most tenuous connection to Tokai Japan, as those instruments are manufactured by a Chinese conglomerate that purchased a license from Tokai Japan, allowing use of the classic Tokai name and graphics, and some designs from previous product lines. Tokai Japan took no involvement in setting up or subsequently supervising production in China. Anyway, in the 80s, it was South Korea that Tokai Japan leased and operated additional production facilities.

[Bill-R]

[quote name='Musky' timestamp='1355531638' post='1899787']
Colour me sceptical.

You may well be correct with any or all of that info, but it would take some hard evidence before I'd be convinced. At the moment there appears to be nothing concrete to link Tokai Japan to Rockinbetter whatsoever, and as it stands your info is peppered with enough caveats for me to remain dubious. If you do have any evidence I'd love to see it, as this topic has been brought up many times without anything definite to suggest the two companies are linked.
[/quote]

Tokai use to list the Rockinbetter on there home site back in the early 80s but had Tokai on the TRC but it was not for export (A number of there guitars were not export back then Strats mostly) and they are still listed in there guitar search on there forum, it was around 84 they started using Rockinbetter on there TRC, they also made rockinbetter lead guitars as well as basses. there seems more on there forum about the guitars than the basses but it all before the mid 90s. but the site has not been updated in almost 10 years or more so I think it dead now.. there is also the fact that Ric took action again Tokai back in the late 80s and stoped them imported into the USA and Canada. I think Gibson tried to do the same but lost!!! in germany!!!
it was just after this that Tokai parted company with Rockinbetter. after that Rockinbetter were removed from there site by then. they were made in China then and had been for a few years. the early bolt necks were made in Japan and are hard to find some have Tokai on the TRC and the later thru neck have Rockinbetter.
in the early 2000 rockinbetter was very had to find in the uk and its only in the last 3 or 4 years that Tokai Ltd uk have started to import them again in any great number.
Robert Murdock started the Tokai guitars (UK) Ltd in 2002 and hase been importing them since then as far as I can tell. there was a Tokia Korea and i dont know it it has anything to do with the other two companys.
before that it was imported by Tokai Japan into the UK. again Tokai Japan could be just the importers before 2002.
it is really hard to find out who now makes them and where. most do not have serial numbers so that makes them harder to trace. Cort seem the most likely. the ones with s/n mostly start CN and that Cor-Tek!
look up Tokai RG43 it was there copy ric 330 and one of there best sellers and they also made a 12 string and i think that the guitar that ric stoped them importing to the USA.
here is a link of the paul weller ric 330 tribute using the Tokai rg43 and the certicate.
[url="http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/msg/3439816827.html"]http://newyork.craig...3439816827.html[/url]

sorry i can't give you more information.

Edited December 15, 2012 by Bill-R

[12stringbassist]

Tokai make a couple of brands that aren't labelled Tokai, so they don't get on their website.
Rockinbetter is one of them.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='12stringbassist' timestamp='1355568481' post='1899975']
Tokai make a couple of brands that aren't labelled Tokai, so they don't get on their website.
Rockinbetter is one of them.
[/quote]

Which ones? Their Cats Eyes and Hummingbird branded acoustic guitars are both on the Tokai Japan site.

There is still no evidence that Rockinbetter has anything to do with Tokai Japan.