So a Rockinbetter isn't a Rickenbacker & a Rockinbetter isn't a Tokai?

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Bill-R' timestamp='1355535794' post='1899809']
Tokai use to list the Rockinbetter on there home site back in the early 80s but had Tokai on the TRC but it was not for export (A number of there guitars were not export back then Strats mostly) and they are still listed in there guitar search on there forum, it was around 84 they started using Rockinbetter on there TRC, they also made rockinbetter lead guitars as well as basses. there seems more on there forum about the guitars than the basses but it all before the mid 90s. but the site has not been updated in almost 10 years or more so I think it dead now.. there is also the fact that Ric took action again Tokai back in the late 80s and stoped them imported into the USA and Canada. I think Gibson tried to do the same but lost!!! in germany!!!
it was just after this that Tokai parted company with Rockinbetter. after that Rockinbetter were removed from there site by then. they were made in China then and had been for a few years. the early bolt necks were made in Japan and are hard to find some have Tokai on the TRC and the later thru neck have Rockinbetter.
in the early 2000 rockinbetter was very had to find in the uk and its only in the last 3 or 4 years that Tokai Ltd uk have started to import them again in any great number.
Robert Murdock started the Tokai guitars (UK) Ltd in 2002 and hase been importing them since then as far as I can tell. there was a Tokia Korea and i dont know it it has anything to do with the other two companys.
before that it was imported by Tokai Japan into the UK. again Tokai Japan could be just the importers before 2002.
it is really hard to find out who now makes them and where. most do not have serial numbers so that makes them harder to trace. Cort seem the most likely. the ones with s/n mostly start CN and that Cor-Tek!
look up Tokai RG43 it was there copy ric 330 and one of there best sellers and they also made a 12 string and i think that the guitar that ric stoped them importing to the USA.
here is a link of the paul weller ric 330 tribute using the Tokai rg43 and the certicate.
[url="http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/msg/3439816827.html"]http://newyork.craig...3439816827.html[/url]

sorry i can't give you more information.
[/quote]

I've looked through all the Tokai catalogues (covering the mid 70s to 2004) that I can find - both those available on-line and the ones I have physical copies of. There's been a large range of copy basses available over the years, mostly P and J types but also a handful based on Gibson models and even a couple of Warwick-a-likes from the 1989 catalogue, but I can't find a single 4001/4003 style bass in any of them.

The 2000 catalogue has two Rickbacker guitar copies (which say Tokai on the TRC so obviously they have no problem making branded copies of RIC instruments) but still no Rickenbacker style basses.

I'm also a regular browser of the Japanese Digimart site which acts as a search engine for the major Japanese music instruments retailers for both new and second-hand stock. I have never ever seen a Tokai branded copy of a Rickenbacker bass on there. Pretty much every Japanese-made instrument, not matter how rare, turns up on Digimart at one time or another, so the lack of RIC-style Tokai basses makes me pretty certain that they do not and never did exist.

If you can provide hard evidence of an actual Tokai branded 4001 or 4003 bass or at least a scan of a Tokai catalogue showing one, I'll be happy to modify my opinion. Until them it is my experience that they only people making a big deal about the supposed connection between Tokai and Rockinbetter are those with ones to sell.

[noelk27]

With reference to Mr BRX's comments above, I'll second his observations, and find myself in total agreement with everything said.

[iconic]

[size=4].....it's all an a clever play on words, isn't it? I've been there now myself and asked. ....[/size]

[size=4].......if anyone need further proof e-mail them, them being 'Tokai 1947 Japan' directly:- [url="http://www.tokaijapan.com/"]http://www.tokaijapan.com/[/url] it seems a number of people do, ask when & where they made Rockinbetters...usual answer is they have nothing to do with Rockinbetter & Tokai UK??? (insert Tokai something) or what ever they care to call themselves currently. It's private UK company with no connection bar the word Tokai, so yes it is a Tokai Rockinbetter, only not the Tokai you are thinking of, confusing isn't it? [/size]

[size=4]Even better say you want like to place an order for 2000, if one feels they are hiding something. [/size]

[size=4]I'm was puzzled why Tokai Japan haven't pursued this with a 'cease & desist order', though what can they do about it, the actual bass's don't have Tokai written on them, or anyone elses come to that, although more than a few sales sites say they are a Tokai so adding coal to the fire....[/size]


[size=4].... although maybe I shouldn't be so surprised. I worked for a Japanese company for many years and the Japanese aren't a very litigious nation, generally. [/size]

[size=4]Possibly best to think of the Rockinbetter as a very pretty looking bass that looks similar to a Ric'....I've a hunch someone is having a nice tickle out of these no name, no serial number bass's.[/size]

Edited December 15, 2012 by iconic

[Bill-R]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1355577715' post='1900119']
I've looked through all the Tokai catalogues (covering the mid 70s to 2004) that I can find - both those available on-line and the ones I have physical copies of. There's been a large range of copy basses available over the years, mostly P and J types but also a handful based on Gibson models and even a couple of Warwick-a-likes from the 1989 catalogue, but I can't find a single 4001/4003 style bass in any of them.

The 2000 catalogue has two Rickbacker guitar copies (which say Tokai on the TRC so obviously they have no problem making branded copies of RIC instruments) but still no Rickenbacker style basses.

I'm also a regular browser of the Japanese Digimart site which acts as a search engine for the major Japanese music instruments retailers for both new and second-hand stock. I have never ever seen a Tokai branded copy of a Rickenbacker bass on there. Pretty much every Japanese-made instrument, not matter how rare, turns up on Digimart at one time or another, so the lack of RIC-style Tokai basses makes me pretty certain that they do not and never did exist.

If you can provide hard evidence of an actual Tokai branded 4001 or 4003 bass or at least a scan of a Tokai catalogue showing one, I'll be happy to modify my opinion. Until them it is my experience that they only people making a big deal about the supposed connection between Tokai and Rockinbetter are those with ones to sell.
[/quote]

How do i post a picture,
i have a picture of a ric copy 330 with a tokai TRC its from there (Tokai) forum it around about page 220 in the guitar section, there are a few picture on the forum but you have to take a bit of time looking,
Tokai Guitar Registry. if you look through it you will find ric copys there with the shark fin TRC and Tokai name.
i belive that the ric copy RG43 was only made for two years, the 4003 bass was made for about 4 or 5 years with the Tokai TRC. after the its like it was contracted out and made in China, Rockinbetters have not been made by Tokai since around 1994.
the ric copy RG43 and the Bass 4003 were not exported and only sold only in Japan, there was also some some Gibson and Fender copys that were not for export too, mostly strats and Tele. the were never ever in the catalogues just like the ric copys but there are still lots of them around with the Tokai name and s/n.
i have heard that the same Factory makes Dillon that makes Rockinbetter but never haing seen a Dillon i could not say if they are the same.
the fact that Tokai Japan have had nothing to do with Rockinbatter since 1994 and the fact that Tokai guitars Uk took over the importing of them in 2002, i think that has caused the mistaken idea that Tokai Japan have someting to do with them now or in the recent past and that clearly is not the truth.
is your looking for a Tokia ric copy then it will be almost 20 years old. anything after that was nort made by Tokai.
can i also say i do not have a Rockinbetter for sale or have anything to do with anyone selling them,
i just happen to have one and have tried to find out where it was made.

[Bill-R]

[quote name='iconic' timestamp='1355582652' post='1900192']
[size=4].....it's all an a clever play on words, isn't it? I've been there now myself and asked. ....[/size]

[size=4].......if anyone need further proof e-mail them, them being 'Tokai 1947 Japan' directly:- [url="http://www.tokaijapan.com/"]http://www.tokaijapan.com/[/url] it seems a number of people do, ask when & where they made Rockinbetters...usual answer is they have nothing to do with Rockinbetter & Tokai UK??? (insert Tokai something) or what ever they care to call themselves currently. It's private UK company with no connection bar the word Tokai, so yes it is a Tokai Rockinbetter, only not the Tokai you are thinking of, confusing isn't it? [/size]

[size=4]Even better say you want like to place an order for 2000, if one feels they are hiding something. [/size]

[size=4]I'm was puzzled why Tokai Japan haven't pursued this with a 'cease & desist order', though what can they do about it, the actual bass's don't have Tokai written on them, or anyone elses come to that, although more than a few sales sites say they are a Tokai so adding coal to the fire....[/size]


[size=4].... although maybe I shouldn't be so surprised. I worked for a Japanese company for many years and the Japanese aren't a very litigious nation, generally. [/size]

[size=4]Possibly best to think of the Rockinbetter as a very pretty looking bass that looks similar to a Ric'....I've a hunch someone is having a nice tickle out of these no name, no serial number bass's.[/size]
[/quote]

it has a name :- Rockinbetter and a s/n :- CN10061571, I take it the CN means it's Cor-Tex that made it.
not sure if Cor-tex has been making then since 1994 or so other company.
Cor-Tec did make some Gresch guitars for Gresch and they had no serial numbers???

Edited December 15, 2012 by Bill-R

[iiipopes]

[quote name='iconic' timestamp='1355582652' post='1900192']
[size=4]If anyone need further proof e-mail them, them being 'Tokai 1947 Japan' directly:- [url="http://www.tokaijapan.com/"]http://www.tokaijapan.com/[/url] it seems a number of people do, ask when & where they made Rockinbetters...[b]usual answer is they have nothing to do with Rockinbetter & Tokai UK[/b]??? (insert Tokai something) or what ever they care to call themselves currently. It's private UK company with no connection bar the word Tokai, so yes it is a Tokai Rockinbetter, only not the Tokai you are thinking of, confusing isn't it?[/size][/quote]
That's so they won't get sued for trademark infringement, which RIC zealously pursues.

[iconic]

[quote name='Bill-R' timestamp='1355583897' post='1900209']
it has a name :- Rockinbetter and a s/n :- CN10061571, I take it the CN means it's Cor-Tex that made it.
not sure if Cor-tex has been making then since 1994 or so other company.
Cor-Tec did make some Gresch guitars for Gresch and they had no serial numbers???
[/quote]

Sorry meant I 'brandname'...ooh, the ones I've seen haven't had any serial numbers...the plot goes on...!

[Bill-R]

[quote name='iconic' timestamp='1355585041' post='1900232']
Sorry meant I 'brandname'...ooh, the ones I've seen haven't had any serial numbers...the plot goes on...!
[/quote]

you are right in that most rockinbetters do not have serial numbers but strangle some do!!! punched into the neck,
dont know why!!!
i think that here in the Uk the brand name is Rockinbetter but in [b]Australia they are Rebelrocker[/b]

[iconic]

[quote name='iiipopes' timestamp='1355584240' post='1900217']
That's so they won't get sued for trademark infringement, which RIC zealously pursues.
[/quote]

Is that missing a ?

[noelk27]

[quote name='Bill-R' timestamp='1355583599' post='1900207']i have a picture of a ric copy 330 with a tokai TRC[/quote]
You're correct. Tokai Gakki has previously manufactured Rickenbacker 330 copies. These can be seen in Tokai Gakki catalogues of the time. People are known to own these (myself included).

[quote name='Bill-R' timestamp='1355583599' post='1900207']i belive that the ric copy RG43 was only made for two years, the 4003 bass was made for about 4 or 5 years with the Tokai TRC. after the its like it was contracted out and made in China, Rockinbetters have not been made by Tokai since around 1994.


the ric copy RG43 and the Bass 4003 were not exported and only sold only in Japan[/quote]
Show me the proof. Show me a Tokai Gakki catalogue with Rickenbacker 4001 or 4003 copies pictured, or referred to. Show me a photograph of one as owned by someone. In fact, if any member of the forum has a photograph of, or better still owns, a Tokai badged 4001 or 4003 copy feel free to jump in here and post the photographs. I'm betting my bottom Yen it's not going to happen. All I'm seeing in your posts are the same assertions rehashed with no evidence, other than links to retailers, and you can't tell me it's not in the interests of those retailers to connect what they're trying to sell to the legacy and heritage of Tokai Gakki, even if what it is they are selling has absolutely nothing to do with Tokai Gakki.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='noelk27' timestamp='1355587569' post='1900268']
You're correct. Tokai Gakki has previously manufactured Rickenbacker 330 copies. These can be seen in Tokai Gakki catalogues of the time. People are known to own these (myself included).[/quote]

This.

Here is the page from the Tokai 2000 catalogue showing the Tokai badged copies of RIC guitars.



There are no Tokai badged copies of RIC basses in any of the catalogues I have seen.

[quote name='noelk27' timestamp='1355587569' post='1900268']
Show me the proof. Show me a Tokai Gakki catalogue with Rickenbacker 4001 or 4003 copies pictured, or referred to. Show me a photograph of one as owned by someone. In fact, if any member of the forum has a photograph of, or better still owns, a Tokai badged 4001 or 4003 copy feel free to jump in here and post the photographs. I'm betting my bottom Yen it's not going to happen. All I'm seeing in your posts are the same assertions rehashed with no evidence, other than links to retailers, and you can't tell me it's not in the interests of those retailers to connect what they're trying to sell to the legacy and heritage of Tokai Gakki, even if what it is they are selling has absolutely nothing to do with Tokai Gakki.
[/quote]

And this.

Bill-R, you are an employee of Tokai UK and I claim my free (non-Tokai) Rockinbetter bass. ;-)

[Bill-R]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1355588761' post='1900288']
This.

Here is the page from the Tokai 2000 catalogue showing the Tokai badged copies of RIC guitars.



There are no Tokai badged copies of RIC basses in any of the catalogues I have seen.



And this.

Bill-R, you are an employee of Tokai UK and I claim my free (non-Tokai) Rockinbetter bass. ;-)
[/quote]

No! nothing to do with Tokai uk what so ever, I live in Scotland not England, if I was I would of had a Rockinbetter years ago and not waited till two months ago.
been playing bass since 1967.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Bill-R' timestamp='1355589742' post='1900303']
No! nothing to do with Tokai uk what so ever, I live in Scotland not England, if I was I would of had a Rockinbetter years ago and not waited till two months ago.
been playing bass since 1967.
[/quote]

But can you supply us with photos of an actual Tokai-badged 4001/3 or at the very least a model number (you had a model number for the guitar)?

[noelk27]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1355590074' post='1900307']But can you supply us with photos of an actual Tokai-badged 4001/3 ... ?[/quote]
Got my bottom Yen right here.

[Bill-R]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1355590074' post='1900307']
But can you supply us with photos of an actual Tokai-badged 4001/3 or at the very least a model number (you had a model number for the guitar)?
[/quote]

My bass came in two plain brown box with the model RG4003. and the S/n started Cn1006, it had i sticker on the box saying Tokai guitars UK. like i said they have nothing to do with Tokai Japan and Tokai uk have only been importing Rockinbetter since 2002,
i have no idea who imported them since 1994 to 2002 when they moved to China. before that Tokai Japan imported them and sold them through there shops. if you check you will see that the Tokai Rg43 was only branded like that for just under a year with the Tokai name on the TRC and then it changed to Rockinbetter or rebelrocker if you live in the in Aus. it is very hard to find a Tokai rg43 anywhere. easy to get a rockinbetter rg43.
not being able to find one dont mean there not around.
who is now making them! i do not know but do think its Cort.
it not east to find a picture of a bass made over 20 years ago and only imported in 100s and only made for a few years, its east to find rockinbetters, if I come across one i'll post it,
again my only intrest is that i have bought one and the first thing i did was change the strings and fit a ric vintage tone switch. i did not buy it because i though it was a Tokai! i bought it because its a good bass and plays well and i like the way it looks. i have no beef about it being linked with Tokai and i have never said that Tokai has had anything to do with the rg4003 since 1994. the newer 22 fret ones certanly are nothing to do with Tokai. also you will find that there was some made for about two years with the none ric style bridge. the first batch that were Tokai were bold on necks necks with a blank TRC, I did have pictures of it but must of wiped them but will keep looking.

Edited December 15, 2012 by Bill-R

[noelk27]

[quote name='Bill-R' timestamp='1355591635' post='1900337']My bass came in two plain brown box with the model RG4003. and the S/n started Cn1006, it had i sticker on the box saying Tokai guitars UK. like i said they have nothing to do with Tokai Japan and Tokai uk have only been importing Rockinbetter since 2002,
i have no idea who imported them since 1994 to 2002 when they moved to China. if you check you will see that the Tokai Rg43 was only branded for just over a year with the Tokai name and then it changed to Rockinbetter or rebelrocker if you live in the in Aus. it is very hard to find a Tokai rg43 anywhere. easy to get a rockinbetter rg43.
not being able to find one dont mean there not around.
who is mot making them i do not know but do think its Cort.
it not east to find a picture of a bass made over 20 years ago and only imported in 100s and only made for a few years, its east to find rockinbetters, if I come across one i'll post it,[/quote]
Something telling me my bottom Yen is safe and sound, and about to go back into my pocket.

[Bill-R]

here is a USA link.

[url="http://www.usamusic.nl/umi/component/content/article/75-tokai-guitars/347-tokaioverview.html"]http://www.usamusic.nl/umi/component/content/article/75-tokai-guitars/347-tokaioverview.html[/url]

[noelk27]

[quote name='Bill-R' timestamp='1355592873' post='1900368']here is a USA link.

[url="http://www.usamusic.nl/umi/component/content/article/75-tokai-guitars/347-tokaioverview.html"]http://www.usamusic....aioverview.html[/url][/quote]
Proving what? That some imports who stock made in China product badged "Tokai" also stock Rockinbetter? You do understand that made in China "Tokai" aren't made by Tokai Gakki, but by a Chinese conglomerate that licensed the "Tokai" name? Again, licensing brand names and trademarks is common practice for Japanese corporations, as many "brands" only exist as non-corporeals.

[Bill-R]

[quote name='noelk27' timestamp='1355593665' post='1900386']
Proving what? That some imports who stock made in China product badged "Tokai" also stock Rockinbetter? You do understand that made in China "Tokai" aren't made by Tokai Gakki, but by a Chinese conglomerate that licensed the "Tokai" name? Again, licensing brand names and trademarks is common practice for Japanese corporations, as many "brands" only exist as non-corporeals.
[/quote]

Yes and that just what Tokai did 20 years ago, have someone else make the Rockinbetter in China.
did they then sell them off! who knows but they kept being made.
just the same as Gresch, Yamaha, Hofner, Gibson, and Fender all had some models made by Cor-Tek in Korea.
but the guitar you bought was still a Fender, Gresch or Gibson or what ever. the fact that the maker Licensed out the making to another firm to make there guitars to there speck does not make that guitar a bad guitar.
China made Tokai are still Tokai. most makers do not want you to know they have had there guitars made by another maker and probable made cheeper.
fender had some of there squire's made by cor-tek and you can tell by the s/n but its still a fender, just like the MIA, MIM, MIJ are all still fenders.
Cor-Tek made more guitars that Gibson, Fender and Rickenbacker all together made in 2008 but you dont see Cot-Tek on any guitar, the closest you see it Cort. so someone is buying a Cor-Tek made guitar with a diffrent name on it. how many people have Cot-Tek guitars and don't know.
why do they have Rockinbetter in europe but Rebelrocker in Aus??? its the same bass???

Edited December 15, 2012 by Bill-R

[noelk27]

[quote name='Bill-R' timestamp='1355595902' post='1900447']Yes and that just what Tokai did 20 years ago, have someone else make the Rockinbetter in China.
did they then sell them off! who knows but they kept being made.
just the same as Gresch, Yamaha, Hofner, Gibson, and Fender all had some models made by Cor-Tek in Korea.
but the guitar you bought was still a Fender, Gresch or Gibson or what ever. the fact that the maker Licensed out the making to another firm to make there guitars to there speck does not make that guitar a bad guitar.
China made Tokai are still Tokai. most makers do not want you to know they have had there guitars made by another maker and probable made cheeper.
fender had some of there squire's made by cor-tek and you can tell by the s/n but its still a fender, just like the MIA, MIM, MIJ are all still fenders.
Cor-Tek made more guitars that Gibson, Fender and Rickenbacker all together made in 2008 but you dont see Cot-Tek on any guitar, the closest you see it Cort. so someone is buying a Cor-Tek made guitar with a diffrent name on it. how many people have Cot-Tek guitars and don't know.
why do they have Rockinbetter in europe but Rebelrocker in Aus??? its the same bass???[/quote]
Garbage.

Fender USA own a percentage of Fender Japan, along with the joint venture partners, and participates in it's running. That legal arrangement is fundamentally different from one where image or brand rights are licensed, as is the situation for Tokai Gakki, which does not own a percentage of the Chinese conglomerate or participate in its running.

[Bill-R]

[quote name='noelk27' timestamp='1355596704' post='1900459']
Garbage.

as is the situation for Tokai Gakki, which does not own a percentage of the Chinese conglomerate or participate in its running.
[/quote]

like Fender, Gibson, Hofner, Gresch. Yamaha. all not having a Percentage in Cor-Tec but still having them make there guitars for them.

[noelk27]

[quote name='Bill-R' timestamp='1355597123' post='1900470']like Fender, Gibson, Hofner, Gresch. Yamaha. all not having a Percentage in Cor-Tec but still having them make there guitars for them.[/quote]
The difference being that those companies would have contracted Cor-Tek (correct spelling) to build an order for them. Again, that's not the situation for Tokai Gakki, which has licensed use of its brand name.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Bill-R' timestamp='1355591635' post='1900337']
My bass came in two plain brown box with the model RG4003. and the S/n started Cn1006, it had i sticker on the box saying Tokai guitars UK.
[/quote]

Sorry, but that model number is all wrong for it to be a proper Tokai. The letter prefix should have a "B" somewhere in it to denote bass - RG is the prefix for Rickenbacker copy GUITARS. The numbers are the price in thousands of Yen which would make your Rockinbetter cost approximately £20,000-£30,000 depending on the exchang rate; and then there should be a letter suffix indicating the finish.

Still no proof that this instrument ever had anything to do with Tokai.

Just because Tokai UK distribute it means nothing either. There are plenty of UK distribution companies with Japanese brand names in their title and varying strengths of links to the actual Japanese companies they are named after. All of them import and distribute other brands as well as their main title one.

TBH on the few occasions I've spoken to the people behind Tokai UK at trade shows nothing they have told me has filled me with confidence and a lot of it smelt like total BS. That's why when I bought my Tokai instruments they came directly from Japan and not via the UK distributor.

Edited December 15, 2012 by BigRedX

[Bill-R]

[quote name='noelk27' timestamp='1355597284' post='1900477']
The difference being that those companies would have contracted Cor-Tek (correct spelling) to build an order for them. Again, that's not the situation for Tokai Gakki, which has licensed use of its brand name.
[/quote]

what your saying is Tokai Licensed someone in China to make there guitars but with there name on it.
is that right!

[noelk27]

[quote name='Bill-R' timestamp='1355598018' post='1900488']what your saying is Tokai Licensed someone in China to make there guitars but with there name on it.
is that right![/quote]
No, I'm not.