So a Rockinbetter isn't a Rickenbacker & a Rockinbetter isn't a Tokai?

[Bill-R]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1355597855' post='1900487']
Sorry, but that model number is all wrong for it to be a proper Tokai. The letter prefix should have a "B" somewhere in it to denote bass - RG is the prefix for Rickenbacker copy GUITARS. The numbers are the price in thousands of Yen which would make your Rockinbetter cost approximately £20,000-£30,000 depending on the exchang rate; and then there should be a letter suffix indicating the finish.[/quote]

I never said my bass was made by Tokai or that it had anything to do it Tokai in any way. what i did say was i thought my bass was made by Cor-Tek as it has CN1006 that is used by them and would mean it was made in S/Korea in a Cort factory and in 2010 and it was made in June.

[Bill-R]

[quote name='noelk27' timestamp='1355598659' post='1900502']
No, I'm not.
[/quote]
sorry but i just don't inderstand what you are saying.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Bill-R' timestamp='1355598918' post='1900506']
I never said my bass was made by Tokai or that it had anything to do it Tokai in any way. what i did say was i thought my bass was made by Cor-Tek as it has CN1006 that is used by them and would mean it was made in S/Korea in a Cort factory and in 2010 and it was made in June.
[/quote]

So you agree then that these "Rockinbetter" basses and the other non-Tokai branded instruments you've linked to in previous posts have nothing whatsoever to do with Tokai?

[Bill-R]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1355599137' post='1900512']
So you agree then that these "Rockinbetter" basses and the other non-Tokai branded instruments you've linked to in previous posts have nothing whatsoever to do with Tokai?
[/quote]

the bass i have yes. I think its a Cor-Tek Korea made bass and have always thought that.
i think there are two types, the 22 fret Korea made one and the 20 Fret China one! are the two companys the same! i dont know
what is true is that there is a company making Rockinbetter and Rebelrocker basses and guitars and no one seems to know who they are! the Rebelrockers are imported by Tokai guitars Korea and the Rockinbetter are imported by Tokai guitars uk Ltd.
the have been making rockingbetters since 1994 but no one has found out who makes them or what the comapny is called. dont you think that strange! Tokai Japan say they have nothing to do with rockinbetter but won't say if the once had deeling with them! there is no guitar or bass maker called rockinbetter that I can find.
did Tokai once subcontract there ric copys to someone that named then rockinbetter as the were worried about ric taking them to court, the guitars (RG43) have the same speck and you could not tell them apart not sure about the basses.
.
the Tokai Rg43 and the Tokai rg4003 were at one time made by Tokai. where they were licensed or contracted from china i don't know. but again that before 1994 and the Rg43 i have linked is Branded Tokai.

Edited December 15, 2012 by Bill-R

[BetaFunk]

This is a fascinating thread but going off topic slightly it got me thinking (yeah i know it's dangerous!) that all the Rockinbetters i've seen are RG4003s (Bound Body with Triangle Inlays). Some websites list an RG4001which doesn't have a Bound Body and has Dot Inlays.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Bill-R' timestamp='1355600387' post='1900533']
the bass i have yes. I think its a Cor-Tek Korea made bass and have always thought that.
i think there are two types, the 22 fret Korea made one and the 20 Fret China one! are the two companys the same! i dont know
what is true is that there is a company making Rockinbetter and Rebelrocker basses and guitars and no one seems to know who they are! the Rebelrockers are imported by Tokai guitars Korea and the Rockinbetter are imported by Tokai guitars uk Ltd.
the have been making rockingbetters since 1994 but no one has found out who makes them or what the comapny is called. dont you think that strange! Tokai Japan say they have nothing to do with rockinbetter but won't say if the once had deeling with them! there is no guitar or bass maker called rockinbetter that I can find.
did Tokai once subcontract there ric copys to someone that named then rockinbetter as the were worried about ric taking them to court, the guitars (RG43) have the same speck and you could not tell them apart not sure about the basses.
.
the Tokai Rg43 and the Tokai rg4003 were at one time made by Tokai. where they were licensed or contracted from china i don't know. but again that before 1994 and the Rg43 i have linked is Branded Tokai.
[/quote]

I'm sorry but there still doesn't appear to be any real proof in your post that Tokai Japan have ever had anything to do with making either the Rockinbetter or Rebelrocker branded instruments. If the Rockinbetters have been made since 1994, then if they were anything to do with Tokai they would have at some point been Tokai branded. After all Tokai were happily displaying RIC style guitars with Tokai on the TRC in their 2000 catalogue (that's undeniable). If they had been making 4001/3 style basses I am sure that they would have been in one of the catalogues too.

I'm still waiting to see either a Tokai Japan catalogue showing a 4001/3 copy or a photo of one with Tokai on the TRC. No matter how hard I look, I have yet to find either of these things. IMO that's because they do not exist.

As I keep saying the only people linking these instruments with Tokai are people who want to sell you one. Pretending that Tokai Japan have something to do with then is a good way of hyping up what is ultimately a rather ordinary Chinese instrument with what is from an IP PoV a somewhat controversial body shape.

[Bill-R]

[quote name='BetaFunk' timestamp='1355601942' post='1900548']
This is a fascinating thread but going off topic slightly it got me thinking (yeah i know it's dangerous!) that all the Rockinbetters i've seen are RG4003s (Bound Body with Triangle Inlays). Some websites list an RG4001which doesn't have a Bound Body and has Dot Inlays.
[/quote]

yes the 4001 has the dot inlay on the fretboard and the body is more contoured, the 4003 has the triangle (sharks tooth) and binding.

[Bill-R]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1355602512' post='1900552']
I'm sorry but there still doesn't appear to be any real proof in your post that Tokai Japan have ever had anything to do with making either the Rockinbetter or Rebelrocker branded instruments. If the Rockinbetters have been made since 1994, then if they were anything to do with Tokai they would have at some point been Tokai branded. After all Tokai were happily displaying RIC style guitars with Tokai on the TRC in their 2000 catalogue (that's undeniable). If they had been making 4001/3 style basses I am sure that they would have been in one of the catalogues too.

I'm still waiting to see either a Tokai Japan catalogue showing a 4001/3 copy or a photo of one with Tokai on the TRC. No matter how hard I look, I have yet to find either of these things. IMO that's because they do not exist.

As I keep saying the only people linking these instruments with Tokai are people who want to sell you one. Pretending that Tokai Japan have something to do with then is a good way of hyping up what is ultimately a rather ordinary Chinese instrument with what is from an IP PoV a somewhat controversial body shape.
[/quote]

again you seem to imply that i'm hyping them up by saying there made by Tokai and i'm trying to sell mine. you could not be further from the truth. i love my rockinbetter and its a great bass. of my 5 basses it the one i play most. also from the very first post i said i thought my bass was make in korea and had nothing to do with Tokai Japan also said the Tokai Uk only started in 2002 so what happened in the 6 years before that, was it Tokai Japan that imported them to sell in there UK shops as it was only Tokai shops that stocked rockinbetter.
what is proof is that Tokai did make RB43 other than the pictues of them with a TRC there are sone with just a blank TRC. and then the stoped making them after just a year when sales were good, and right away up pops Rockinbetter out of nowhere and has a plany up and running and selling the same Rg43. all around the same time Tokai was having problems importing guitars into the USA and court case in Germany with Gibson.
then as if by magic no one knows where the rockinbetters come from but they started poping up just when Tokai stop making them. nothing strange there. now after 20 years of them being imported round the world, still no one knows where rockinbetter or Rebelrocker come from.
why do most rockinbetters not have serial number????? why can no one tell us what factory there made????
someone is working very hard to keep us from knowing and who would not want to be conected with ric copys???

Edited December 15, 2012 by Bill-R

[Mr. Foxen]

Fairly elaborate explanation that could equally be explained by not being Tokais.

[Bill-R]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1355604035' post='1900570']
Fairly elaborate explanation that could equally be explained by not being Tokais.
[/quote]

Yes i very much agree. but not knowing who is making them then you can never discount anyone either.
I dont think Tokai have been involved in rockinbetter since 1994 and there would be only a small number of Tokai branded ric copys around after 20 odd years as the guitar only sold for 11 months and the bass was said to been sold for almost two years, after that Rockinbetter sprung up and only made 4 guitars, the Rb4003/1 and the RB43/40.

Edited December 15, 2012 by Bill-R

[afterimage]

I think it's down to play one yourself and makes the choice to buy or not to buy. Then maybe buy. Genuine Rick after or upgrade

[Bill-R]

If you check this link
[url="http://www.tokaiguitarsaustralia.com.au/INDEX.html"]http://www.tokaiguit...m.au/INDEX.html[/url]

its the "[b]Tokai[/b] [b]Guitars[/b] Australia"
if you look under Vintage at the bottom suprise... suprise you find Rebel Rockers.
why would a company only selling Tokai Japan/China guitars sell something that they have nothing to do with.
am I the only one that thinks it strange that Australia Tokai dealers all sell Reble rockers.
in the Uk all Tokai dealers sell Rockenbetter. but the say the have no conection to rockinbetter.
if you click on the bass to zoon it up pops the Tokai badge next to the bass.
it just does not add up. the have no other makes advertised only Tokai.
there is something not right about all this!
why would Tokai let Rockinbetter/Rebel be sold by there dealers and promoted as being Tokai made?
and why give a 5 year warranty and a Tokai gig bag?

Edited December 15, 2012 by Bill-R

[Bill-R]

[quote name='afterimage' timestamp='1355607887' post='1900623']
I think it's down to play one yourself and makes the choice to buy or not to buy. Then maybe buy. Genuine Rick after or upgrade
[/quote]

I do think most Rockinbetter players will aim to get a Real ric at sometime in there life. but like squire player want a Fender and Epiphone players want a Gibson. its a step up to the real thing.
not everyone can fund a £2000 bass.

Edited December 15, 2012 by Bill-R

[noelk27]

[quote name='Bill-R' timestamp='1355609546' post='1900645']If you check this link
[url="http://www.tokaiguitarsaustralia.com.au/INDEX.html"]http://www.tokaiguit...m.au/INDEX.html[/url]

its the "[b]Tokai[/b] [b]Guitars[/b] Australia"
if you look under Vintage at the bottom suprise... suprise you find Rebel Rockers.
why would a company only selling Tokai Japan/China guitars sell something that they have nothing to do with.
am I the only one that thinks it strange that Australia Tokai dealers all sell Reble rockers.
in the Uk all Tokai dealers sell Rockenbetter. but the say the have no conection to rockinbetter.
if you click on the bass to zoon it up pops the Tokai badge next to the bass.
it just does not add up. the have no other makes advertised only Tokai.
there is something not right about all this!
why would Tokai let Rockinbetter/Rebel be sold by there dealers and promoted as being Tokai made?
and why give a 5 year warranty and a Tokai gig bag?[/quote]
Again, that's another importer/distributor website, as it clearly states on the title page, owned and operated by Jade Australia: http://www.jadeaustralia.com.au/index.html It's not a website owned and operated by Tokai Gakki.

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='Bill-R' timestamp='1355442984' post='1898601']
"Tokai Ltd UK" do import Rockinbetter 4003 basses into the UK. they are made in Korea not China.
....................

Big Stu
don't know where they are on sale at £299, I got mine for new for £400 and it had £65 off, most shops selling them in the uk at £465.
even at £500 its a really good bass with a three piece thro maple neck. its hard to get a good thru neck for under £500.
[/quote]

I was told last year that it was only the original ones that were made in Korea, they are now Chinese which are at £499..
The £299 I saw on one was in GuitarGuitar Edinburgh when they were first released a few years ago, whether it was a special introductory price I don't know but that's what it was...... remember it distinctly because I was taken in, at first sight of the neck only, that it was an actual Rick at that price, then I read the TRC properly & though "cheeky b*ggers"!.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Bill-R' timestamp='1355603542' post='1900564']
again you seem to imply that i'm hyping them up by saying there made by Tokai and i'm trying to sell mine. you could not be further from the truth. i love my rockinbetter and its a great bass. of my 5 basses it the one i play most. also from the very first post i said i thought my bass was make in korea and had nothing to do with Tokai Japan also said the Tokai Uk only started in 2002 so what happened in the 6 years before that, was it Tokai Japan that imported them to sell in there UK shops as it was only Tokai shops that stocked rockinbetter.[/quote]

No I'm not implying that you want to sell your Rockinbetter. What I'm saying is that the majority of "evidence" that they are made or in some way connected to Tokai Japan comes from dealers and distributors who are hoping that the Tokai connection will help to persuade you to buy what is otherwise are rather overpriced Chinese-made bass.

The company called Tokai UK may well import them, but that means nothing as regards to a concrete link between Rockinbetter and Tokai Japan. I notice that the Rockinbetter bass does not actually appear anywhere on the Tokai UK web site. All a bit shady if you ask me. Importers don't just import a single brand. For instance Korg UK handles a lot of other products and not just those of Korg from Japan. To me the Tokai UK connection with Rockinbetter is it's just another brand they handle along with the real Tokai instruments.


[quote name='Bill-R' timestamp='1355603542' post='1900564']
what is proof is that Tokai did make RB43 other than the pictues of them with a TRC there are sone with just a blank TRC. and then the stoped making them after just a year when sales were good, and right away up pops Rockinbetter out of nowhere and has a plany up and running and selling the same Rg43. all around the same time Tokai was having problems importing guitars into the USA and court case in Germany with Gibson.[/quote]

I'm not denying that Tokai Gakki have made Tokai branded copies of Rickenbacker Guitars - after all I did post the page from their 2000 catalogue that proves this. However the existence of the guitars does not automatically mean that they also made copies of Rickenbacker basses. I have never seen any evidence of this, and it is my opinion that there is no evidence because there are no basses. The internet is a wonderful thing. If something exists somewhere, then someone will have posted a photograph of it. In the 20 or so years that I have been interested in Tokai instruments I have never seen any photographs of 4001 or 4003 style basses with Tokai logos on them. That to me is proof enough that they never have exited. Again as I said in an earlier post, I'll be happy for someone to prove me wrong, but they haven't so far.

It may be that Tokai have had complaints from RIC regarding their guitar copies (I'd be surprised if they haven't), but if they were making 4001/3 clones in 2000 or earlier there would be no reason for them not to have Tokai on the TRC.



[quote name='Bill-R' timestamp='1355603542' post='1900564']
then as if by magic no one knows where the rockinbetters come from but they started poping up just when Tokai stop making them. nothing strange there. now after 20 years of them being imported round the world, still no one knows where rockinbetter or Rebelrocker come from.
why do most rockinbetters not have serial number????? why can no one tell us what factory there made????
someone is working very hard to keep us from knowing and who would not want to be conected with ric copys???
[/quote]

Rockinbetters didn't start "popping up" when Tokai stopped making them, because Tokai never made them in the first place. All that's happened is that someone has seen an opportunity to get some Rickenbacker clones made, since most of the original Japanese makers of RIC copies have moved on to making their own design instruments.

The reason for all the secrecy is two fold. Firstly so that the myth that these instruments are somehow connected to Tokai can be perpetuated in order to help sell them, and secondly so that RIC has difficulties finding where they are being made and getting production stopped.

[noelk27]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1355612985' post='1900675']I'm not denying that Tokai Gakki have made Tokai branded copies of Rickenbacker Guitars ... . However the existence of the guitars does not automatically mean that they also made copies of Rickenbacker basses. ... The internet is a wonderful thing. If something exists somewhere, then someone will have posted a photograph of it. In the 20 or so years that I have been interested in Tokai instruments I have never seen any photographs of 4001 or 4003 style basses with Tokai logos on them. ...

It may be that Tokai have had complaints from RIC regarding their guitar copies (I'd be surprised if they haven't), but if they were making 4001/3 clones in 2000 or earlier there would be no reason for them not to have Tokai on the TRC.[/quote]
Actually, Bill-R is asserting that Tokai Gakki were making Rockinbetter badged instruments through the 80s, up until 1994, and further asserting that thereafter some other version of Tokai Gakki was operating as Tokai Korea and continued to make Rockinbetter badged instruments. That gives us in excess of 30, possibly closer to 40, years where it's being asserted Rockinbetter instruments have been available. Can anyone recall seeing a Rockinbetter badged instrument before the year 2000? In fact, can anyone recall seeing any before the mid 00s? Seriously, if Rockinbetter Rickenbacker copies had been in circulation since the 80s then one of the JapCrap collectors on this site would have previously, or would currently, own one. Does anyone want to jump in at this point and show off their 80s or 90s Rockinbetter? Please, if you've got one, do us all a huge favour and jump in now.

Oh, and as for Tokai being in any way intimidated by threats of legal action by John Hall, well, that sort of thing, generally speaking, doesn’t bother Japanese corporations. They know, under Japanese law, that they aren't committing any offence, unless the foreign manufacturer in question has take the time, and considerable expense, to register all the relevant copyrights, designs and patents in Japan, and subsequently maintained a presence there. You only have to ask Fender USA about that sort of situation, , and what is necessary to combat the competition.

Edited December 15, 2012 by noelk27

[Musky]

So far all the evidence we have available suggests that the Rockinbetter brand is an importer brand, and operates in exactly the same way as other importer brands since at least the sixties. Importer A wants to make a copy guitar so they contact an overseas manufacturer to make them and name them [i]*Brand A*[/i]. Importer B may contact the same manufacturer and ask for the same instrument to be branded [i]*Brand B*[/i]. Same instrument, originating from the same factory, with different branding and different importers. There is no link between the brands other than that they have used the same manufacturing facilities.

From time to time they may approach a completely different factory to make these instruments, so the specs/quality on construction may differ slightly. Other brands (which once had their instruments made in the same factory) may or may not also decide to have their instruments made at the same factory as their rival brands.

So what we have here are at least three brands (Rockinbetter/Rebelrocker/Bass Collection) that have at one point used the same factory for their copies. Some of these are claiming a Tokai link, although the Bass Collection doesn't.

As has been pointed out waaaay back in the thread, the Tokai that is importing the Rockinbetters into the UK has nothing to do with Tokai Japan other than it has the word 'Tokai' in its name. Other companies do as well, but they have nothing to do with Tokai Japan or even musical instruments either.

There's absolutely nothing to suggest that there's any link to Tokai Japan, or indeed that they existed before the early 2000s.

[stingrayPete1977]

So are they made by Tokai then?

[iconic]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1355654448' post='1900886']
So are they made by Tokai then?
[/quote]

Maybe something to do with the [i][b]'Illuminati'[/b][/i]....I've not seen them mentioned yet

Edited December 16, 2012 by iconic

[bassmachine2112]

I think rickenbacker are made by rickenbacker unless they have a secret factory in the far east and the guy that makes the truss rod covers isn,t very good at spelling.

[stingrayPete1977]

Almost every bass I have played made in the far east I have preferred to every real Ricky anyway!

[Bill-R]

[quote name='noelk27' timestamp='1355611186' post='1900666']
Again, that's another importer/distributor website, as it clearly states on the title page, owned and operated by Jade Australia: [url="http://www.jadeaustralia.com.au/index.html"]http://www.jadeaustr...m.au/index.html[/url] It's not a website owned and operated by Tokai Gakki.
[/quote]


As you say it is a distributor. they say "Jade Australia is the exclusive distributor for Tokai" and supply 49 dealerships, the only guitars listed on there site are Tokai apart from the three Rebelrocker, the one bass and two guitars. no other guitars listed other than Tokai! all guitars including the rebelrockers are shown with a Tokai badge next to the product.
again you think that normal, you also think its normal that almost all Tokai dealers also sell Rockinbetter/Rebelrocker but there are none sold outside Tokai dealers shops unless second hand. I really did not think that Tokai made Rockinbetters or had anything to to with them since 94. i did think that Tokai made ric copys and then stopped and Rockinbetter started up and at first there was a conection. but now after seeing that only Tokai dealers sell them, then how can they say they have nothing to do with Rockinbetter if they know there dealers are selling them and there "Exclusive" importer is implying there made by Tokai. they seem happy with this set up. there is something just not right about all this, the fact you can't find who does made Rockinbetter or Rebelrocker is strange, the only paper trail is the importers and both are called Tokai. Tokai uk ltd and Tokai korea and both only supply Tokai dealers.
i do remember looking at a rockingbetter in london in 1996 and almost bought it and it was along side a Shaftbury but i like the rockinbatter better. I missed out on that when i went back next day it was sold and I have been intreasted in them since then, always wanting once and now i have one and very happy with it and make no claim its a Tokai, its a new "2010 model.
I'm not going to say any more as there is no way i can prove that Tokai have a conection to Rockinbetter other than being sold by most of there dealership and only there dealerships!
have really enjoyed the discusion, thanks guys.

[BigRedX]

Jade Australia distribute lots of other guitar brands.

You just have to be looking at the [url=http://www.jadeaustralia.com.au]right web site[/url].

[Musky]

Rockinbetters sold by dealers without a Tokai dealership. A fairly cursory search reveals that.