budget hifi amp recommendations

[PaulWarning]

there seems to be some cracking advice floating around on this thread so if I can go off on a slight tangent, my present set up is a rega turntable, Arcam Alpha 1 CD player , NAD 3130 amp and Celestion F30 speakers, and I hardly listen to it because I'm fed up with hearing all bass drum and no bass guitar, any ideas anyone?

[Dingus]

It's difficult to say what's causing your dissatisfaction with the sound of your sdystem without actually hearing it and being able to swap componants and listen to the difference, but if I were to hazard a guess I would say that your speakers may be the guilty culprits. Rega turntables , with a decent cartridge and set-up properly ( a prerequisite for any turntable ) sound great, and yout NAD amp may be a bit long in the tooth but it was a fine budget amp in the late 80s and there is no reason why it shouldn't still sound enjoyable now. What's more, unlike a lot of budget amps nowadays, it has got a very good-sounding phono stage input so if you listen to a lot of vinyl then that is big thing in it's favour. The Arcam Alpha One CD will probably sound perfectly respectable in your current system, which leaves your speakers as an obvious choice to start trying to change things. Speakers in hifi are are a funny old thing in so much as they can make the biggest and most immidiate difference to the sound of any system, but at the same time they are a slave to what is going on further up the signal chain. From what you describe it sounds like you you would like some more detail and definition in the sound. Is the sound you are getting now too boomy in the low frequencies to hear the bass guitar properly? If so it could be the positioning of the speakers. It would be handy to know what size room they are in and how they are positioned. Big floorstanding models such as your Celestions benefit from being sited in free space with a couple of feet between the rear of the speaker and the rear wall. It is also critical to position any speakers well clear ( preferably at least a foot and a half) of side walls to prevent them sounding boomy and indistinct. Big speakers are generally designed to work best in bigger rooms, and if you are listening in a smaller space or a room where you can't position the speakers appropriately then you will never get satsfying results regardless of how good the equipment is. It may be if you have a smaller or awkwardly arranged listening room that you actually get more satisfying bass response and detail from some smaller speakers that are more appropriate to that space . As I have said, I haven't heard your Celestions so I cannot pass comment or judgement, but having had a quick Google I would say that they appear to be typical of a lot of less expensive speakers on the market nowadays here they are a lot of box for the money and designed to work as front speakers in cheaper home cinema setups rather than as "proper" two channel audio hifi speakers . I am not saying this to denigrate your Celestions but just to describe how the market for speakers has gone in recent years as struggling manufactures try to maximise the appeal of their products to bigger marketplace . Most ordinary folks nowadays want to buy a home cinema setup nowadays rather than more traditional two channel audio systems and the sound quality of a lot of speakers on the market has suffered as a result. Would it be possible for you to borrow an alternative pair of speakers from somewhere to try them as a substitute for your celestions so you can hear if they make the kind of difference you wish for? A lot of specialist hifi dealers will let you borrow stuff to demo at home,, or if you have got a friend with some suitable speakers to compare. That might be a good place to start. With the turntable and electronics you have already got with the right speakers you should be able to get a sound you enjoy far more than you are doing now.

Edited November 1, 2012 by Dingus

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1351788275' post='1855440']
there seems to be some cracking advice floating around on this thread so if I can go off on a slight tangent, my present set up is a rega turntable, Arcam Alpha 1 CD player , NAD 3130 amp and Celestion F30 speakers, and I hardly listen to it because I'm fed up with hearing all bass drum and no bass guitar, any ideas anyone?[/quote]

Dingus has pretty much nailed it I'd say.
If you're keeping the kit you have try to position your speakers as he's described if you can; I've got floor-standers too which I was recommended to have about 8-10 feet apart with the listener at the apex of a triangle in front at about 12-14 feet away. Despite my other half not liking the idea I tried to toe them in; so that that instead of pointing directly forward they slightly face each other so that the sound from them "crosses over" about 3 feet in front of the listener. It depends on the speaker as to whether they improve matters - for me it did - in spades! The clincher was then sitting them on slate blocks about an inch or so thick.

[gafbass02]

The F30's do indeed have quite bloomy bass. A port plug might help.

[PaulWarning]

hey thanks guys, I too suspected the speakers, they are big for the room I have them in now, I'll try repostioning and a port plug, any sugestions for smaller speakers that will enable me to hear the bass nice and clearly? Like the OP here I'd like something 2nd hand, say up to £100

Edited November 1, 2012 by PaulWarning

[Matt P]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1351794047' post='1855546']
hey thanks guys, I too suspected the speakers, they are big for the room I have them in now, I'll try repostioning and a port plug, any sugestions for smaller speakers that will enable me to hear the bass nice and clearly? Like the OP here I'd like something 2nd hand, say up to £100
[/quote]

i swapped from a pair of budget KEF floorstanders to a pair of Castle Durham 2's sitting on Atacama stands, the speakers were 60 quid from a guy up the road and the stands were a local ebay find for about 20 (including the atabites filler) the difference was huge, the floorstanders sounded fine in my old rented house but in our current living room they sounded useless, i tried positioning and port plugs but nothing helped, sold them to a friend and they sound pretty good in his living room.

the only problem with the castles is the lack of spare parts, when i bought mine the seller had another identical pair that my friend bought, they turned out to have dead tweeters, he had a chat with the seller and was given all his money back and told to keep the speakers, he then manage to get hold of a guy in york with the last pair of correct tweeters, £90 latert he had a pair of speakers that sounded as good as my pair if not a little better, i live in fear of the day that mine develop a fault as i know that repair might not be possible and i love the sound.

the mission 727's in the classifieds might suit your needs.

[Dingus]

There are a myriad of smaller speakers to choose from, and if you're looking to buy secondhand then there is almost so much choice as to be overwhelming. One thing to consider is the compatability of any prospective speakers to your amp ; if you want to turn them up loud then you will need some speakers that are reasonably easy for your NAD amp to drive. Most bookshelf speakers should be fine, but if you can look at the spec for any particular speakers then ideally they would be 8 ohms impedance with a sensitivity over 87db, or 6 ohms ideally with a slightly sensitivity. As for brands and models, some of the smaller Mission speakers such as the 760i or 780 are old favourites of mine and are well worth a punt if you see them cheap, or else something like Tannoy 603s or Tannoy 605 are a solid used buy even though they are from 20 years ago. Some smaller floorstanders will still work in a small room , and if you see something like some Rega EL8s at a sensible price they have got nice meaty bass and you won't need stands.

Edited November 1, 2012 by Dingus

[Mr H]

I've loved this thread - thanks all. I bought a hifi separates system in 1993 when I first got a steady job, then updated it when I got a decent-paying job a few years later. I grabbed a great turntable (Nottingham Analogue Horizon with customised Rega RB250) a couple of years after that, and then children started to appear. I still remember the awful feeling of defeat when I packed everything into boxes away from greasy destructive fingers seven years ago, and it's all still boxed away to this day. Almost three grand's worth, I reckon. If ever a man needed his own room...

[gafbass02]

I know the feeling. I sold a lot of mine to fund basses I no longer own. Still wish I'd Hung on to my ReVox S22 CD player. Just a stunning sounding thing, and my mordant short MS208's.

Edited November 1, 2012 by gafbass02

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='gafbass02' timestamp='1351793030' post='1855527']
The F30's do indeed have quite bloomy bass. A port plug might help.
[/quote]
I've plugged the port and it has helped, still not much bass guitar there though (really frustrating for a bass player), I fear I might have the bug again, damn this thread

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1351801655' post='1855685']
There are a myriad of smaller speakers to choose from, and if you're looking to buy secondhand then there is almost so much choice as to be overwhelming. One thing to consider is the compatability of any prospective speakers to your amp ; if you want to turn them up loud then you will need some speakers that are reasonably easy for your NAD amp to drive. Most bookshelf speakers should be fine, but if you can look at the spec for any particular speakers then ideally they would be 8 ohms impedance with a sensitivity over 87db, or 6 ohms ideally with a slightly sensitivity. As for brands and models, some of the smaller Mission speakers such as the 760i or 780 are old favourites of mine and are well worth a punt if you see them cheap, or else something like Tannoy 603s or Tannoy 605 are a solid used buy even though they are from 20 years ago. Some smaller floorstanders will still work in a small room , and if you see something like some Rega EL8s at a sensible price they have got nice meaty bass and you won't need stands.
[/quote]
cheers Dingus, I won't be turning it up too loud though, sets the tinitus off lol

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='Matt P' timestamp='1351798385' post='1855633']
i swapped from a pair of budget KEF floorstanders to a pair of Castle Durham 2's sitting on Atacama stands, the speakers were 60 quid from a guy up the road and the stands were a local ebay find for about 20 (including the atabites filler) the difference was huge, the floorstanders sounded fine in my old rented house but in our current living room they sounded useless, i tried positioning and port plugs but nothing helped, sold them to a friend and they sound pretty good in his living room.

the only problem with the castles is the lack of spare parts[/quote]

They used to be made in Skipton, Yorkshire until the name was bought out by a Chinese company. Mine are Castle Severn 2's & cost me £600 after a 10% discount for cash. Had an issue with them about 2 months later & was put thru to the guy who actually built them.

[tauzero]

[quote name='Ian Savage' timestamp='1351510770' post='1851859']
Baaaaaarrrrrr-gain....[url="http://www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/music-centre/1002230569#gallery-item-full-2"]http://www.gumtree.c...ery-item-full-2[/url]
[/quote]

It would have been rude of me to ignore that, especially as I had to drop a few drums off in Coventry where it was...

[lurksalot]

with the NAD's my old 3020 ( which my mate still uses) had a function that would lower the input signal enabling you to wind up the power stage , this transformed the sound and the clarity was superb .

but then I will be honest that with a garrard quartz lock table , a decent cartridge and wharfeldale laser 100s , with 'the lexicon of love' spinning , my ears weren't good enough to warrant spending any more .

[PaulWarning]

just seen some second hand KEF C20, does anybody know anything about them?

[leroydiamond]

[quote name='lurksalot' timestamp='1351812962' post='1855878']
with the NAD's my old 3020 ( which my mate still uses) had a function that would lower the input signal enabling you to wind up the power stage , this transformed the sound and the clarity was superb .

but then I will be honest that with a garrard quartz lock table , a decent cartridge and wharfeldale laser 100s , with 'the lexicon of love' spinning , my ears weren't good enough to warrant spending any more .
[/quote]

+1
Its insane to spend serious money on expensive hi fi kit if your hearing is shot. I Purchased an expensive system years ago and got real joy from it, but nowadays I might as well be listening to an old radio as my ears are damaged from all the years of bass playing

[Ian Savage]

[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1351811839' post='1855861']
It would have been rude of me to ignore that, especially as I had to drop a few drums off in Coventry where it was...
[/quote]

Excellent

[51m0n]

Just as a sm,all point. ANyone struggling with the sound of their gear really ought to look into the room acoustics before shifting big bucks on a newfangled shiny toy to try and fix the issue.

A small investment for a measurement mic (assuming you have a cheap audio interface to your computer already) and some time and effort with a free bit of software (Room EQ Wizard) can tell you whether or not you are flogging a dead horse by buying more expensive kit.

Its not difficult to sort out, although it can be harder to get acoustic treatment passed her who must be obeyed. DIY basstraps and broadband absorption will be cheaper than new speakers and amp, especially if you have pretty serious kit already, and the difference to the sound will be far greater and more even across the room.

All that surgically targetting the 'listening sweetspot' and what have you - sorting out the room makes the sweetspot much much larger too.

[Dingus]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1351815497' post='1855900']
just seen some second hand KEF C20, does anybody know anything about them?
[/quote]

That was a decent small speaker from the mid to late 1980s. They were designed to be positioned close to a rear wall to reinforce their bass response, and so they are better suited to a smaller room. I've never heard them myself , but by reputation they were a good speaker of their day and well regarded at the time. If they are really cheap and in good condition they might be worth a try , but if you are in the market for a used compact speaker like that it's worth considering that the market for affordable high quality smaller speakers really took off in the early 1990s as manufacturers realised that this is where most of their potential sales were, and some models from a bit later than these Kef C20s will sound markedly better. Some speakers that retailed at around the £120 to £150 in the early to mid 1990s sounded amazing for their size and can be had for a steal nowadays if you keep an eye out for the right model. My own personal preference is for Mission speakers.. The first proper speakers I got was a pair of 760is ( just seen these on ebay [url="http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MISSION-760i-SPEAKERS-PAIR-OF-QUALITY-2-WAY-REFLEX-6-OHMS-/321011521452?pt=UK_AudioVideoElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_HiFiSpeakers&hash=item4abdc717ac"]http://www.ebay.co.u...=item4abdc717ac[/url]) :and they were fantastic with a detailed and exciting sound , and in most respects they sounded as good as my current speakers that cost ten times as much. In the 90s Mission were ,for the most part, really on top of their game and came out with several cracking smaller ( and larger) speaker designs. They will still sound good now, but the only caveat is that spares for some models might be a problem. If you can get some for a fair price they are well worth a try nevertheless. I still have fond memories of bringing home the first Rage Against The Machine album and listening to Tim Commerfords' Stingray punching out of the speakers in my humble student bedroom and I'm sure they would give you the defined bass that you currently are missing. I'm only banging on about Mission because they are what I'm most familiar with and so can recommend from experience , but plenty of other makers such as Kef and Tannoy also put out some great smaller speakers back in the 90s.

Edited November 2, 2012 by Dingus

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1351860367' post='1856262']
That was a decent small speaker from the mid to late 1980s. They were designed to be positioned close to a rear wall to reinforce their bass response, and so they are better suited to a smaller room. I've never heard them myself , but by reputation they were a good speaker of their day and well regarded at the time. If they are really cheap and in good condition they might be worth a try , but if you are in the market for a used compact speaker like that it's worth considering that the market for affordable high quality smaller speakers really took off in the early 1990s as manufacturers realised that this is where most of their potential sales were, and some models from a bit later than these Kef C20s will sound markedly better. Some speakers that retailed at around the £120 to £150 in the early to mid 1990s sounded amazing for their size and can be had for a steal nowadays if you keep an eye out for the right model. My own personal preference is for Mission speakers.. The first proper speakers I got was a pair of 760is ( just seen these on ebay [url="http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MISSION-760i-SPEAKERS-PAIR-OF-QUALITY-2-WAY-REFLEX-6-OHMS-/321011521452?pt=UK_AudioVideoElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_HiFiSpeakers&hash=item4abdc717ac"]http://www.ebay.co.u...=item4abdc717ac[/url]) :and they were fantastic with a detailed and exciting sound , and in most respects they sounded as good as my current speakers that cost ten times as much. In the 90s Mission were ,for the most part, really on top of their game and came out with several cracking smaller ( and larger) speaker designs. They will still sound good now, but the only caveat is that spares for some models might be a problem. If you can get some for a fair price they are well worth a try nevertheless. I still have fond memories of bringing home the first Rage Against The Machine album and listening to Tim Commerfords' Stingray punching out of the speakers in my humble student bedroom and I'm sure they would give you the defined bass that you currently are missing. I'm only banging on about Mission because they are what I'm most familiar with and so can recommend from experience , but plenty of other makers such as Kef and Tannoy also put out some great smaller speakers back in the 90s.
[/quote]
Thanks for the heads up, I'll keep and eye on them, the KEF's are local to me and no bids yet, at £10 they're worth a punt

[MoonBassAlpha]

Beware of "bargain" hifi speakers from the '80s and 90s with foam cone edge surrounds. They often look intact but will tear when cranked.
I recently got some old JBL Control 1 pros with this issue. I did re foam them, but it was another £20 odd and a couple of hours work.
Acoustic Research (AR) speakers are the same, I've refoamed 2 pairs now, with good results though. AR18s' are a nice sounding speaker for the money, above issue notwithstanding.

[gafbass02]

Phone fail double post

Edited November 2, 2012 by gafbass02

[gafbass02]

Yep, watch the foam surrounds for sure. Also be aware that the kef coda and cresta series speakers from that period were another one that I used to see needing new drivers regularly. Not particularly a fault if the speakers, more the owners. They had a good rep so people bought them irrespective of wether they were right for their listening habits.
Kef's people always used to moan on the 'phone to me about the cresta series that they were
"Designed for classical music"
Despite the fact that they were never marketed as such?! And that classical music can be pretty hoofing!
But boy did they blow easily with a big bass beat. Changed no end of them!
Nothing wrong with them, just the amount that blew compared to the amount we sold was a bit... Well, off!
Predictably for an ex RS employee I very much rate the mordant stuff, but not all of it. Some of the older stuff was TERRIBLE (MS25i's) searing treble and a boxy sound, the declaration series was fab, needed partnering with the right hardware and running in ( a lot!!!) but great and I still own them.
The later revisions of them I was MUCH less keen on. ( The avant series)
The expensive THX pack they made was diabolical too. Not sure how they managed to mess it up so badly given how close it was in terms of design to the rest of the declaration range. The mezzo range however is fab.

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='MoonBassAlpha' timestamp='1351864578' post='1856345']
Beware of "bargain" hifi speakers from the '80s and 90s with foam cone edge surrounds. They often look intact but will tear when cranked.
I recently got some old JBL Control 1 pros with this issue. I did re foam them, but it was another £20 odd and a couple of hours work.
Acoustic Research (AR) speakers are the same, I've refoamed 2 pairs now, with good results though. AR18s' are a nice sounding speaker for the money, above issue notwithstanding.
[/quote]
is this where the out bit of the cone sort of rots away? had this trouble with JPW AP2's, ditched them in the end.
Got my eye on some Eltax Liberty 3+'s at the minute, anybody know anything?

[gafbass02]

Yep. The liberty range were very nice for the money. Later they had a problem with glue failing in the drivers, but if they haven't gone by now then they'll be a good pair.
Nice solid cabinets, attractive design, very deep indeed, big for what they are. A good solid all rounder buy. The eltax liberty and in particular the older symphony series (symphony 6's and especially the 6.2's were a great sounding set of speakers, after the 6.2 version they got terrible and terribler!) had a very pleasent 'airy' open top end which was quite expressive, but maintaining a nice solid attack at the bottom, not a bloated soggy wumph

Edited November 2, 2012 by gafbass02