Intonation Issue

[thunderbird13]

OK the honey moon period is over !

I’ve gotten used to being about to make a sound on the Stagg EUB and I’ve had a few lessons on technique . Now I’m listening to what I’m playing and TBH I’m struggling to keep my intonation. This is particularly noticeable whenever I start moving shifting position, No real suprises there as I’m sure it’s a very common beginners problem , and as my ear/expectations increase I’m sure this problem will get worse before it gets better. So what should I do to help my intonation , scales , appregios, drills ? I don’t want to just keep playing the same thing over and over again ( in this case A blues ) just in case I compound the problem

Any help or recommendations would be appreciated

[BobVbass]

The usual scales and arpeggios but more importantly practice a poker face with an air of "I'm playing notes you lesser talented musicians wouldn't comprehend" Arco helps too

[TheRev]

Play scales in lots of diferent keys, learn to use your ears rather than your eyes to tell you where you are on the fingerboard - you can learn this by playing lots of scales in different keys......
The thumb stop at the bottom of the scroll and where the neck joins the body are good reference points.

Neil Tarton's book, 'beginning scales' is very good for getting to work on scales in different positions.

[thisnameistaken]

My advise would be to make sure the bass is at a comfortable height (most recommend the nut around your eyebrow level, this certainly works for me), and make sure you're not fighting to keep the thing balanced - any struggling to hold the thing comfortably will introduce more variables into your hand positions and make intonation more of a gamble.

How long have you been playing? It takes a while to get intonation right most of the time, from what I've seen I don't think anyone ever gets it right all the time. If you pick up the bass for ten or fifteen minutes a day you will notice a steady improvement, but you must practise things you can't do, not things that already sound good.

Try practising scales on one string, I guess the G would be the best place to start. If you play the whole scale on one string then you are forced to change position every two (or three if you pivot) notes, at least until you get your thumb over. This gives you lots of opportunity to practise changing position, and so you'll quickly learn to do it more accurately. Like TheRev said, try to use the point where the neck heel as a reference point for your hand so you only have to move through a couple of positions before you hit a familiar marker with your thumb.

Honestly though I see bassists who've been playing ten years or more and gig regularly and still play out of tune sometimes. Maybe they can't hear themselves properly or maybe they get fatigued or maybe they're just being a bit lazy on some gigs I don't know, but I've heard a lot of out of tune playing from even very good bassists.

[Silvia Bluejay]

Also, play as many open strings as possible, so that you hear a reference pitch as often as you can. Believe it or not, that's more helpful than you think.

Edited November 1, 2012 by bluejay

[fatback]

Do you play fretless bass guitar? If you do and you play using a thumb pivot, check out the Rabbath method. Intonation just stops being a problem because you need to move your arm so much less (only a few positions). If your thumb placement is right, everything is easy.

[iiipopes]

Get some classical lessons with a teacher who teaches Simandl, and start learning positions and developing "muscle memory" to always be able to come back to the same place every time both with each finger 1-2-4, and in each position as you shift up and down the neck.

[invicta59]

Markers on the side of the neck?

[Clarky]

[quote name='TheRev' timestamp='1351773723' post='1855169']
Neil Tarlton's book, 'beginning scales' is very good for getting to work on scales in different positions.
[/quote]
I just ordered this (it costs a tenner) - here's the link [url="http://web.onetel.com/~andreavicari/neiltarlton/index.html"]http://web.onetel.com/~andreavicari/neiltarlton/index.html[/url]

[TheRev]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1351776100' post='1855211']
Honestly though I see bassists who've been playing ten years or more and gig regularly and still play out of tune sometimes. Maybe they can't hear themselves properly or maybe they get fatigued or maybe they're just being a bit lazy on some gigs I don't know, but I've heard a lot of out of tune playing from even very good bassists.
[/quote]

This makes me feel a whole lot better - I played a horribly out of tune solo at rehearsal last night, partly due to fatigue (I'd already done a gig in the afternoon), partly due to not being able to hear myself (still getting to grips with a new amp, so the EQ meant that anything above the E on the G string was inaduible) and partly due to laziness....

[quote name='invicta59' timestamp='1351779728' post='1855282']
Markers on the side of the neck?
[/quote]

Hmm. My EUB has permanent side markers and to be honest, it made me lazy - I didn't have to learn/hear where the notes were so I didn't bother. If I could go back, I'd order the thing with out the markers and suffer the two or three months it would have taken to get my ear in.

However - on stages where the monitoring is a bit iffy/boomy, I do have some little sticky dots that i pop on the side of the neck of my DB, usually at the G on the E string, just to help stay in tune. I wouldn't call it cheating as such as I'd rather play in tune and entertain people than feel smug about doing it 'properly', but I do sometimes feel a bit guilty.


I suppose I'm trying to say that position markers can be useful when learning or in difficult sonic environments, but it's very, very easy to become reliant on them.
To th OP, I'd suggest limiting markers to those positions where you seem to be having the most intonation problems and giving yourself a time limit for removing them.

Edited November 1, 2012 by TheRev

[Clarky]

As you know Al, I have side markers on my double bass for precisely teh reason that I am new-ish to my band and don't want to screw up, but eventually I want to remove them.

Alternatively you could buy a fretted double bass [url="http://www.gbase.com/gear/rickenbacker-bedpost-fretted-upright-d-1935-b"]http://www.gbase.com/gear/rickenbacker-bedpost-fretted-upright-d-1935-b[/url]

[thunderbird13]

[quote name='TheRev' timestamp='1351781880' post='1855314'
[/quote] To th OP, I'd suggest limiting markers to those positions where you seem to be having the most intonation problems and giving yourself a time limit for removing them.
[/quote]

Actually its a Stagg EUB so it does have markers at the side although TBH I find some of then a little out so they're a bit of a mixed blessing

[thunderbird13]

[quote name='Clarky' timestamp='1351782289' post='1855324']

Alternatively you could buy a fretted double bass [url="http://www.gbase.com/gear/rickenbacker-bedpost-fretted-upright-d-1935-b"]http://www.gbase.com...pright-d-1935-b[/url]
[/quote]

err no thanks

[Silvia Bluejay]

I have reference dots on the fingerboard (as opposed to the side of the neck) of my NXT5, and find them helpful for keeping intonation, obviously. However, their presence also makes me look at my fretting hand far more often than I do on my other upright, and that's something I'd prefer to avoid, especially as I tend to read as opposed to memorise (I know, I know!). So it's a bit of a mixed blessing. Musical ear and muscle memory are best.

[MandShef]

I'd also vote for scales being a really useful tool for improving intonation. Play them slowly with a bow so you can really hear each note. If you've got a piano/keyboard next to you while you play, then you can check against that every now and then. Don't worry - you'll get better with practice

[thunderbird13]

[quote name='MandShef' timestamp='1351782699' post='1855336']
Play them slowly with a bow so you can really hear each note.
[/quote]

I wasnt really thinking of using a bow but I do know that there is an argument that it gives a purer note - a silly question maybe but would a violin bow work OK on a DB . I have an old violin lying around somewhere

[twice]

Hi,
I would second all the points about practicing scales etc, both across and along the strings, in all positions and all keys.
Yes in the beginning it is can be boring, I still practice them but make them musical!
The point about using a keyboard is good, I play through a difficult passage on the keyboard to hear what it sounds like, then practice it on the bass.
But I am not sure about using dots....
The main thing is that you know that you are playing out of tune, which is a step in the right direction!!!

[Bilbo]

Try this.

Don't look at the neck.

Play a C on the A string in half position with your left hand little/third finger.

Without looking at the neck and focussing your mind on where the finger is positioned, shift position and play [i]the same[/i] C using the first finger of your left hand. Your first (fretting) finger is now occupying exactly the same space previously occupied by your little finger. Now reverse the process.

What you will experience is a sense that you hands/mind/ears are guiding you to the correct position rather than your eyes (which are not that useful at this angle as your line of sight is all to cock).

As you start moving around in neck, bear in mind this principle that the fingers should occupy the same space each time and, gradually, over a relatively short period, you will start to fill in the gaps and start to 'feel' where the notes are (you are using your sense of touch and hearing to guide you so 'feeling it' is almost literally true but it is a sensory thing as much as anything else). Over time, you will learn to trust yourself and the intonation will gradually stabilise.

[philparker]

I maybe the least qualified to comment on this as I have only been playing DB for one month, but as a beginner I may be able to share different experiences?!

I didn't really intend to play with a bow, but listening to sage advice from BC forumites and others I thought it might be worth while. I managed to locate a tutor a week or so before I collected my DB and arrange an initial lesson (on the day of collection) and subsequent lessons. It just so happens my tutor is from an orchestral background and even though I highlighted my future plans (jazz, folk, MOTR & majority pizz) all my lessons and tutoring will be a majority of arco until I am at a decent level. I have played fretless for many years and appreciate 'intonation by ear' and watching all the DB vids I have, I've been impressed with the seamless intonation and muscle memory of the players.

I've been studying scales and arpeggios from an ABRSM book as well as Yorke Studies & Kieth Hartley solos - all in a progressive structure and 90% arco. I've been pleased with my progress and consistency of intonation, especially when moving up to position 3 (I haven't started the thumb position yet!) and looking back over the last month I think my progression has been very much helped by the structure ive adopted and the 20+ mins of scales very day - something I would be reluctant to do on guitar or bass.

Luckily I've got the time to practise and I intend/determined to be a good player and don't mind putting in the hard, tedious work in now if its going to get me quicker to the point of competence.

[MandShef]

Unfortunately your violin bow won't do - it won't be the right size/weight. I wonder if it's worth you checking out the 2nd hand stuff on here to see if a cheap bow becomes available? The advantage of practicing scales arco is you can hold the note for longer and therefore stand a better chance of really hearing the note/intonation.

[TheRev]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1351787110' post='1855414']
Play a C on the A string in half position with your left hand little/third finger.

Without looking at the neck and focussing your mind on where the finger is positioned, shift position and play [i]the same[/i] C using the first finger of your left hand. Your first (fretting) finger is now occupying exactly the same space previously occupied by your little finger. Now reverse the process.

[/quote]

Oooh, that's a good one!

When I'm feeling particulary masochistic, I like to practice vomits (do a search on the DB forum) with different intervals - so first set are chord tones - octaves, 7th, 5th, 3rd. Do this in major and minor keys, then move onto thesame exercise using scale tones. In addition to training your intonation it also hardens up your calluses nicely.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='thunderbird13' timestamp='1351783007' post='1855346']
I wasnt really thinking of using a bow but I do know that there is an argument that it gives a purer note - a silly question maybe but would a violin bow work OK on a DB . I have an old violin lying around somewhere[/quote]

It's not so much 'purity' of the note but the sustain and even tuning - often a note will sound slightly sharp when you pluck it and then flatten, so you get a more accurate pitch when using the bow. Also you get more time to hear the pitch thanks to the sustain - many basses and many types of strings lack sustain when plucked.

I've got a spare French bow you can have if you like, it's cheap but it works. You'd still need to get a cake of rosin (I don't have a spare one of those).

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1351787110' post='1855414']Play a C on the A string in half position with your left hand little/third finger.

Without looking at the neck and focussing your mind on where the finger is positioned, shift position and play [i]the same[/i] C using the first finger of your left hand. Your first (fretting) finger is now occupying exactly the same space previously occupied by your little finger. Now reverse the process.[/quote]

When I had a couple of lessons last year this was one exercise which was recommended to me. I mostly went for the lessons because I felt really under-confident about intonation when changing positions, and exercises like this really do help. Especially if you pick notes that you can compare with an open string.

[fatback]

[quote name='Clarky' timestamp='1351782289' post='1855324']
As you know Al, I have side markers on my double bass for precisely teh reason that I am new-ish to my band and don't want to screw up, but eventually I want to remove them.

Alternatively you could buy a fretted double bass [url="http://www.gbase.com/gear/rickenbacker-bedpost-fretted-upright-d-1935-b"]http://www.gbase.com...pright-d-1935-b[/url]
[/quote]

I'd never gig without markers. imo you have to be able to play in tune when you can't hear, and if your band is loud that's going to happen all the time.

Also, if you jump about, you can't rely on muscle memory. Seems to me it's different for relatively static players. Jazz and orchestral bassists can rely on a standard posture. I would say for bassist who sing there's an argument for markers as well.

I find that reading practice removes the reliance on the markers anyhow, as you can't look at both things at once.

Edited November 1, 2012 by fatback

[oggiesnr]

I play scales (arco) whilst using the gstring app on my mobile set at auto tune. I then listen to the correct note when I play it and also concentrate on muscle memory. I've found that I seem to hear slightly flat, what seems in tune to me comes out as flat on the tuner and also to my tutor (who can sing in perfect pitch) so I'm re-educating my ear at the same time.

I'm doing a lot of reading which helps but so does playing open strings, I seem to suffer badly from the effects of gravity pulling my hand down. When I get the bass out I take care to make sure the spike is always the same length so I can see where my hand is out of the corner of my eye.

Having said all that I still have intonation problems (especially when I get above fourth position) but they're getting better a bit at a time.

Steve

PS If there are particular keys you play in a lot concentrate on them first.

[marvin spangles]

The Double bass is a big instrument so there's plenty of margins for tuning error. You tube is full of the good the bad and the downright out of tune.
I've had a few experiences in the studio where I felt that I wasn't quite cutting it 'tuning wise' . I decided that I had to do something about it. Here was my solution.
99% of my work is pizz but I practice mostly with the bow. I start every practice session with about 20 minutes on two octave scales starting on E three octaves and finishing on Eb. then there's a whole load more stuff including Bach which I love but will take a lifetime to get to grips with.
I recently decided to do grades 5-8 in my 50's so it's never too late.
I have a small chamber orchestra which I run and the other day the viola player said to me 'I've never met anyone who plays so many scales' . My reply was 'no one wants a bass player who plays out of tune'...
As a result my technique has improved considerably ... it doesn't make me a better musician but it get's me more gigs and recordings. Most of all it gives me confidence. I only wish I did it years ago. So to the OP I say rather than learn bad muscular memory at the beginning of your DB journey which is difficult to unlearn do something about it now. Enjoy your journey.