Truckstop Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Hello all, Just looking for a few pointers to get the best out of my live mix. Any help or advice gratefully received! I play mainly large pubs but cracking into the wedding and functions market in the spring and need to make sure my bands live sound is as good as it can be. Up until recently, we've just been putting vocals through the tops and using backline, but I've convinced the band that we need to invest in a proper full range PA in order to make our lives easier (we have serious volume wars between guitar and keyboard) and look better in front of prospective clients. Here's the band set-up: Lead vocal, bass w/ BV, guitar, keys, drums I have a 12 channel powered mixer (8 mic/DI inputs) and basically everything goes in. 2 vox, Guitar and key amps mic'd, bass DI'd. Drum kit uses bass drum mic, snare and overhead for toms and cymbals. I use an aux out to a smaller mixer that I use to power 4 monitors. I'm not looking to get a sound worthy of an arena! Just looking to get all the instruments nicely balanced and make sure that our onstage volume doesn't get too high. At the moment it's really bad with our keyboardist and guitarist being really bad for turning up constantly. They keep drowning each other out and I once had to have a break after a song because my head was swimming from all the volume. As you can imagine, probably doesn't sound too good out front! My powered mixer has a headphone input. I was wondering whether a good headphone mix translates to a good FOH mix? I also have a 31 band EQ on the way with other bells and whistles. Useful? Thanks for any help! Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Headphone mix will be completely different to FOH. Elevate the guitarists and keyboard players keyboards and put them a little distance away from them so they act as monitors (they can't listen with their knees). How to do a quick good sounding live mix. Turn on PA Find feedback point on microphones and turn down slightly Only cut with EQ at this point do not boost (at risk of feedback) Tell entire band to play a song, leave lead vocals alone. Set any backing vox to sit just beneath the lead vocals, this may be done with EQ of Vol. Boost any drums that you feel need it but don't do it for the sake of it Set Instruments to their respective levels leaving space for bass in the mix (should sound a little "hollow" without you) Start playing bass and set level to suit Leave it alone from here on out, no-one is to change any amp settings (especially volume). Using this method I can usually soundcheck and mix ready in less than 2 minutes Once you're able and if you have anyone who can plink on bass as them to do so, go to the back of the pub and see what it sounds like there. If still ok you're in business Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOD2 Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 It seems that you've identified the first problem in getting a good live mix - the on-stage volumes. You have to sort this out first, otherwise the band will always be turning up and messing up the mix, or not be able to hear themselves and messing up their playing. Charic's advice is spot-on - move the backline amps so that the players can actually hear them. Either raise them or tilt them (you can make or buy stands to tilt combo amps) so that the sound goes to their ears and not their knees. Move the amps so that they point to the player and not the rest of the band. If everything is going through the PA, and the on-stage volumes of the amps should be as low as you can all work with - then you make up the volume at the front of house by using the PA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbytodd Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 we have the same problem but its our guitarists that sneak the volume lelevs up during the gig.because our drummer uses an electronic kit he has stored the drum tracks for a few songs so that he can go out front and set the pa. so at the start of the first set alls good then you start to get louder and louder guitars and by the end of it its sounds like we are standing in a music shop.but you cant get it through to them . +1 to charics post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musophilr Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Likewise, +1 to Charic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truckstop Posted November 2, 2012 Author Share Posted November 2, 2012 Cheers! So @charic, don't bother with the headphones then? So, what am I listening for when I'm adjusting the EQ? I have a bit of experience EQ'ing drums to match the room, but not with other instruments. Many thanks! Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 [quote name='Truckstop' timestamp='1351854697' post='1856144'] Cheers! So @charic, don't bother with the headphones then? So, what am I listening for when I'm adjusting the EQ? I have a bit of experience EQ'ing drums to match the room, but not with other instruments. Many thanks! Alex [/quote] The likelihood of a PA sounding anything like your headphones are so slim, add room acoustics into that and it's not really going to work. If you're looking at adjusting the EQ I would experiment at practices rather than live, you'll probably find some stock settings which work for your singers (or even better get a recording of them and see what you need to do to their voice to get the best sound). Happy to look at EQ settings for you if you get a bit stuck Really, live in a pub environment you're looking at avoiding three things: 1. Feedback (cut the appropriate freq or turn down) 2. Boominess (cut some of the bottom end or if you have the capability around 200Hz(ish) 3. Harshness, some PA's can sound a little harsh up top with high volumes. Roll off some frequencies to cut this back. Other than that it's a pub gig so you have very little control over the sound really Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobVbass Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 I usually use the main EQ to get rid of the feed back in the room not to get right sound - place your channels at levels needed, raise the master volume until you start getting feedback, EQ it out, raise again and EQ next freq out etc - lower the master slightly and you'll be feedback free. Use the channel EQ's to get the right sound from each channel. (if that all makes sense?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truckstop Posted November 2, 2012 Author Share Posted November 2, 2012 [quote name='bob_pickard' timestamp='1351855015' post='1856151'] I usually use the main EQ to get rid of the feed back in the room not to get right sound - place your channels at levels needed, raise the master volume until you start getting feedback, EQ it out, raise again and EQ next freq out etc - lower the master slightly and you'll be feedback free. Use the channel EQ's to get the right sound from each channel. (if that all makes sense?) [/quote] Had to read a couple of times but yes makes sense! Cheers! Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOD2 Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 The headphones can sometimes be useful to debug a problem (not while you're actually playing, of course !). You should be able to send individual channels to the headphones and if you have a pair of isolating headphones you can listen to what the mic is picking up on that channel and hear, for example, if it sounds particularly bright or dull and then start to compensate on the channel EQ. But other than that it's no good for comparing headphones with the live sound - the resonances that you get in a room are not picked up in the headphones so you get an artificial feel of what the mix sounds like. Try to CUT the EQ rather then boost it, wherever possible - that helps keep feedback under control. As has been said, use the master EQ to adjust the overall sound to fit the room. Try playing a CD that you know really well over the PA and adjust the master EQ so that the CD sounds good. Watch out for a situation where you, for example, cut treble on the master EQ then end up adding treble to all the individual channels on the mixer - these two actions cancel each other out ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben604 Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 We make sure that our backline sounds good first, and that the drums are tuned, this is done in the practice room. Then small adjustments are made for the room we're in, but it's usually very minor. We play some music first to make sure the PA sounds alright in the room, adjust the sub... We do vocals first, the rest of the band listen to me line checking, then the kick, snare and toms to get a level on the whole kit (we don't usually use an overhead for the cymbals in pubs, they're loud enough) We play so regularly that the guitarists know what sort of levels they need to be at on their amps anyway, so we then play two songs with varying dynamics, so we can get a balanced mix with either me or the guitarist out front listening to levels. We mic the guitars only if the room is big or there's something directly in the way of the crowd, there are a few gigs where we're "enclosed", so we put everything though the PA and point a speaker in their direction. Then, after aaallll that, I bring the foldback mix up and we play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben604 Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 (edited) Also, I'm not sure how you guys set up, but we play loud and very very rarely have feedback issues. Do you all have your PA infront of the microphones? (this isn't an ars*y comment by the way!) Edited November 2, 2012 by ben604 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Low cut the keys, guitar, bv's, lead vox, snare and any drum overhead you have. Main EQ (a little graphic usually) for feedback - first investment you need to make is a serious set of 31 band graphics, one for monitors one (stereo ) for FOH. Use that to surgically remove feedback requencies. Done right this will get you something like 6 to 12dB of added volume before feedback. You dont need to use all that volume, stay sane for the sake of the punters, but the more headroom you have before feedback the better. Aim the gguiatr amp and keyboard amp at their respecive faces, at 90 degrees to FOH. The use FOH to provide the sound of their instruments to the audience. Position them at opposite sides of the stage [b][i]always[/i][/b] with amps facing in as side fills. Any backchat from them and fire them as unsuitable fo rthe gigs you are looking to get. No second chances. I'm a git aren't I The punters are all that matters here, no room for huge egos (not even one). The punters care about the following (in order of importance):- 1. Lead Vocal 2. Lead Vocal 3. Lead Vocal 4. Lead Vocal .... n. Lead Vocal Seriously. Everything else is there to support the song. Sound engineers tend to think that punters think like this:- 1. Kick drum 2. Kick drum 3. Kick drum 4. Kick drum 5. Vocal They are wrong.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOD2 Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Yes, you can use the 31-band EQ to "ring out" the system. There are various methods for doing it but all are essentially the same. An experienced sound engineer will be able to listen to feedback from the system and quickly recognise which frequency this is occurring at, and then lower the appropriate slider on the 31-band EQ to cut the feedback. It's hard to do this without the experience. Another way to do it is as follows - Before you start, make sure all the stage mics are in place and switched on. If your mixer has a high-pass (or low-cut) filter switch on each channel then switch this ON for all mics except bass and kick drum (if appropriate) - this prevents mics which don't need low frequency signals, like vocals, from picking up low rumbles from the room. 1. Start with the EQ flat (all sliders at zero) 2. EQ the room by listening to a CD and adjusting the sliders for a good sound 3. With the EQ set where you want it, SLOWLY raise the master volume until feedback starts 4. Now lower the master until the feedback just stops - you're now on the edge of feedback 5. Now go round the EQ and raise each slider slowly in turn until you find the one that provokes the feedback 6. Lower this particular slider a little 7. Repeat steps 3 to 6 When moving the sliders on the EQ you move them up and then back to their original position (set at step 2) if they don't provoke feedback. With a little practice you'll be able to home in on the sliders that generally cause the feedback and just work with those ones. If you can use your 31-band EQ in "mono mode", so that one set of sliders affects both left and right, then do so - it's easier to work with one set rather then two - otherwise you'll need to move both left and right sliders at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 ^ +1 (5im0n) I've once seen a sound engineer working on getting the 'perfect' kick sound in isolation for 3 tracks (everything else muted on PA). They then turned on the rest of the mix and it sounded crap The day I spend 3 songs sound checking a bands songs is the day I'm working at Wembley Arena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truckstop Posted November 2, 2012 Author Share Posted November 2, 2012 Lovely, cheers guys! Loads of tips there! Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 So tell me more about getting the kick drum to sound +++ AWESOME +++. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Tune the kick drum to its lowest fundamental frequency (this is actaully really good advice). Mic it with a mic pointing at the beater Cut some low mid (around 200Hz usually) - in fact cut all that mud Add some Lo 9around 60Hz Add some 4Khz to 8KHz (hell all of that you have) Jam it through a hard kne compressor with an attack around 50ms and release around 100ms, ratio 6:1 threhold so its giving you about 9 to 12dB GR on every hard strike Turn it up 12dB too loud in the FOH... Drink 3 pints to shoot your top end hearing down in flames , then eq the top end back in to help (especially good after 15 years doing FOH since you already have no upper frequency hearing to speak of). "Hello Wemmmmbbllleeyyyyyyy!!!!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truckstop Posted November 2, 2012 Author Share Posted November 2, 2012 Erm, is that serious advice or pisstaking?! Ha ha I don't want to end up with the bass drum sounding like Scorpion! Truckstop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben604 Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 I, personally, think the kick is really important! Completely drives a song. So, I make sure the crowd can feel it in their chest and hear the punch with their faces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 In my punk band The Daves, we put everything through the pa. We soundcheck without the pa - aside from vocs - to get the backline at the volume so we can hear everything, and so that we are at the correct levels with the drums, and for the venue - we don`t play louder than the drums will go acoustically, we simply don`t play venues big enough for that. From there we get a presence of each instrument in the pa speakers, but that is all, and then soundcheck again to make sure all is well. We don`t use the pa to be as loud as the backline, just to make the sound more even across the front, and to get a greater depth of sound. We don`t have any instruments through the monitors. Working this way, we always sound roughly the same, whether rehearsing or playing a gig, and we - usually - don`t have volume issues. Of course, having a guitarist in the band means that sometimes volume discussions occur....... With regards to eq, we leave it all flat, aside from the drums where we back off of some of the lows. In addition, I always DI pre-eq to the pa as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musophilr Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 If you have control over gtr & keys EQ I've found that if you notch it down slightly at around 3kHz, it obscures the vocals less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 [quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1351857972' post='1856203'] So tell me more about getting the kick drum to sound +++ AWESOME +++. [/quote] [quote name='Truckstop' timestamp='1351859827' post='1856249'] Erm, is that serious advice or pisstaking?! Ha ha I don't want to end up with the bass drum sounding like Scorpion! Truckstop [/quote] Its something of a pisstake in that it is too much of everything..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassfunk Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 I'm with Lozz on this. We rarely play rooms so big that the backline needs to be louder than the drums (our drummer is a fairly loud player anyway). We EQ the kick so that it's just punching through a little. Then make sure vox are loud and clear. You mentiona keyboard amp, Does he not have a monitor? why use an amp? Our keyboard player uses a wharfedale powered monitor, the sound is directed to his hears not the rest of us/FOH so there are no sound wars! We also sound check a song that starts quiet, gets loud and has a keys and guitar solo. We always sound check with the same song too (not the newest one in the set for a bit of practice) so we know exactly how it should sound. But I'm no expert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.