How to do a live mix?

[Cosmo Valdemar]

Very helpful thread, this.

[JTUK]

Doesn't really matter if you have FOH or not, IMO..you should approach certain things the same way.

Tune/EQ all intruments to occupy a sonic space and have a little cros-over as poss.

Any decent drummer should be able to get a decent tune from his kit...it is that basic. If they can't do that, then you have the wrong guy.
Bass needs to cut not flood a mix and sit around the kit....and you need to hear all the notes when playing with full drums.as this underpins the whole song and mix.
Gtrs and Keys need dynamics to either play a support rolle or lead role and they should be aware where they need to be dynamic or integral.

Once you have all this in place an a generic EQ on the instruments, non P.A support mixing is easy and just a case of levels.. by and large.
And when you have this core good mix sorted and all the instruments sound good on their own and don't clash with others sonic space, the FOH engr gets a pretty easy ride
and 15 mins sound checks for decent size P.A and stages become easy to manage as you have done all the hard work for him..hopefully.

[allighatt0r]

This is interesting, I would never set the volume from the "edge of feedback" level of vocals, It seems like that's a sure fire way of getting an ear splitting-ly loud mix! The method I use is to have the drums play alone at first, balancing the kick volume with the snare drum in most venues. In large places we mic up the toms and get them somewhere around the volume of the cymbals. "Overhead beneath the snare and hi-hat to add a bit of zing to those two where necessary.

I'll then soundcheck the bass against the drums (either at the end of my 30ft lead in a small place or getting the guitarist to play for me while I listen), so we have a suitable level and EQ such that we're complementing each other rather than clashing or drowning out either way. Will then layer guitars on top of that (adjusting all three instruments if necessary), and then plonk the vocals on top of that.

I tend to find that I cut almost all of the low frequencies off of the vocals, otherwise they tend to sound very boomy, especially when talking between songs, although this may just be a characteristic of our PA.

Still not found a way to stop the guitarist turning his volume knob clockwise or stopping the drummer from getting a bit more heavy hitting over the gig...

[Truckstop]

My keyboard player insists that his amp is part of his 'sound' (some sort of Marshall combo) and will not be DI'd! So I have to mic his combo. I'd prefer to DI straight out of his keyboard and give him his own monitor, but you know, whatever. If he's happy to carry it all around then fine!

Need to invest in a couple of amp stands methinks.

Thanks for all the input guys, this is all well helpful!

Alex

[charic]

[quote name='allighatt0r' timestamp='1351864882' post='1856348']
This is interesting, I would never set the volume from the "edge of feedback" level of vocals, It seems like that's a sure fire way of getting an ear splitting-ly loud mix!
[/quote]

Once you know your feedback point you can turn it down.

What happens if you do it your way, putting the vocals on last and they feedback?

You have to turn the lot down, this in turn changes the way the speakers interact with the room which means EQ has to change.

I'm not saying you're doing it wrong btw, it obviously works for you. It could take a bit longer this way around though.

[Huge Hands]

Unless you are planning to run the guitarist and keyboard player through the PA and not allow them any backline amps. no matter how good your shiny new PA is, it will still sound s**t as they'll still be turning their amps up against each other and over the PA.

They are your fundamental problem and you may be better off investing your money in psychological help!

I do have a story about this - A few years ago, I (as a former FOH engineer) was asked along to a mate's band's gig to give them pointers on their mix. I told them that to be honest, I was thinking of leaving halfway through because the guitarist's amp was giving me a headache. They went in a strop, and then came back to me a few weeks later admitting they'd been refused a few regular gigs at a couple of venues due to complaints and now thought that this might have been the reason why. They then asked me to go to a rehearsal. I let them play for a bit, and then asked the guitarist to lean his amp back like a wedge on front of him. They played the next song. and he stormed off halfway through saying "I can't have it like that, it's making me feel sick". My response was "Now you know how your audience feels". I understand he invested in a smaller amp the next day that gave him the sound but wasn't so loud, and could be mic'd for the PA.

All was well that ended well on that one!

[Lozz196]

Oh the problems those lead-guitar-folk cause with their walls of speakers that generate "their sound". Exactly the same sort-of thing with my old band - said guitarist would set up all his pedalsr 4 feet away from his amp at rehearsals, then turn up ridiculously loud as he couldn`t hear himself.

So one day, we got him to come and stand out front 15 feet away from his amp. Then the drums bass & rhythm gtr sound-checked to get the levels right, then we got him to start playing. Whilst of course he wouldn`t admit he was too loud, he did turn down.

[bassfunk]

I must be the only one who constantly has to ask our guitarist to turn up! In fact he's the one member of the band who doesn't cause any headaches, he turns up on time, learns the songs, he's never too loud and he has zero ego! The only problem is he makes me look bad

[charic]

[quote name='bassfunk' timestamp='1351941342' post='1857075']
I must be the only one who constantly has to ask our guitarist to turn up! In fact he's the one member of the band who doesn't cause any headaches, he turns up on time, learns the songs, he's never too loud and he has zero ego! The only problem is he makes me look bad
[/quote]

Ask him if he's a closet bassist

[TimR]

Sounds like your main issue is the volume war between keys and guitar. Until both of them understand that they will need to cut some frequencies and have a 'band' sound instead of 'their' sound, you are completely wasting your time.

Regards bass drum. You just need definition. If you have no subs no amount if bass boost will make any difference. Try boosting around 120-300hz. You're also going to havevto be careful you don't get bleed into the mic from bass guitar. In addition SISO you can't make the bass drum sound better, or radically different to how it sounds at source. Tuning the bass drum is key.

[TimR]

Once you have managed to get "Everything louder than everything else." turn the whole lot down. Most bands are now far to loud due to low cost powerful gear. More watts mean more headroom, not more volume.

If your punters are standing along the back wall, or not dancing down the front with the band, then it is too loud.

[51m0n]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1351949540' post='1857191']
Once you have managed to get "Everything louder than everything else." turn the whole lot down. Most bands are now far to loud due to low cost powerful gear. More watts mean more headroom, not more volume.

If your punters are standing along the back wall, or not dancing down the front with the band, then it is too loud.
[/quote]

Cant agree with this enough! Brilliant point well put.

I saw Plux's band play last night in a club in Brighton. The PA was massive, floor to ceiling type thing. The sound was utter utter dross. The band couldnt hear themselves on stage (depsite a binch of monitors), the punters were subjected to a wall of noise so loud that the cider in my glass was vibrating like it wanted to go for a walk.

I know I am old, but i really appreciate great sound, and this was awful, the high frequencies were hars, the low frequencies were mud, there was no, 0 , seperation in the low end between bass, kick and guitar, it was just unpleasant mud.

Even playing back CDs this rig sounded dreadful, but as a live rig it was apalling. And painfully loud (and I've enjoyed Motorhead, so I know loud can be good too). Irt was 'tuned' as a club rig for this kind of playback, but typically over egging the pudding, massive subs with no definition or punch just pouring out huge dollops of unpleasant WRMMMMMMM WMEMMMMMMEMRMRMMM, which meant that the kick, and bass were indistinct lumps of sub. Nasty fizzy mid tops with really harsh timbre.

The dufus doing sound really didnt have a clue what he was doing, it was pitiful. On a positive note (and this is scraping the barrel) there was only one spike of feedback the whole night. We are thankful for small mercies....

Edited November 3, 2012 by 51m0n

[Truckstop]

If you were in a position to help that guy, what would you advise him to do? Any particular frequencies you'd kill, or would you change the mic placements or anything like that?

Would be well useful for you to give advice on how NOT to to sound terrible!

Cheers!

Alex

[Chrismanbass]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0EMCfsenag"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0EMCfsenag[/url]


good video on how to use eq properly

also a chart of the frequency ranges of different instruments

[url="http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm"]http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm[/url]

[51m0n]

Firstly the main problem in most venues is the acoustics suck. If it were up to me there would be at least some decent bass trapping, and broadband absorption. That would make evryhing else so much easier.

Second most spaces have a definite maximum volume before you can't get a good mix. I saw suicide support Iggy pop last year, and even in a big auditorium hey went beyond the limitbofhe venue. How? The whole place was vibrating and resonating - literally panels on the walls were trying to tear themselves free and making a terribly detrimental racket as they did so.

So firstly, just because you have x amount of gain before feedback' dont think you must use it all.

Second do tune the pa up with a mixture of good reference material and pink noise to get a pretty even response, not too hyped. Watch for harsh top end an eq it out, or mushy bass, bin anything nasty.

Then rig up all he vox mic an tune the eq further to be rid of any feedback.

In his Case he didn't understand frequency separation when mixing, leaving a huge low mid/upper bass build p of mush. Careful use of high pass filters at 80 to 120 hz on everything but bass and kick would help. Sucking a load of 250hz out of he kick, and below 80hz out of he bass can help these fit. By it is different for every venue, ban and gig. So the thing is to use your ears. If it sounds great in the mix, then its good.

Learn to eq in the mix, not soloed, as its the mix that counts

Edited November 4, 2012 by 51m0n

[mrtcat]

You need to sort the attitudes of guitarist and keyboard players. Having just read your post from last night I now gather this is moot but it'll stand you in good stead when recruiting for your new project (wise decision btw as you can't educate pork - unlikely they would ever have displayed the right pro attitude for function work). If anyone auditions and is not prepared to agree to "leaving the vol knob alone after soundcheck", they don't get the gig. End of.

Once you have your lineup, start here.

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1351987553' post='1857689']
Second do tune the pa up with a mixture of good reference material and pink noise to get a pretty even response, not too hyped. Watch for harsh top end an eq it out, or mushy bass, bin anything nasty.
[/quote]

You have three types of eq at your disposal.

1. The PA eq which affects the overall PA sound (usually a rack mount piece of kit - forget 15 band stuff you need at least 30 band)
2. The eq on the mixing desk for each channel
3. The eq on instruments and amps

When folk aquire pa gear and put it all together they assume that setting all eq knobs and sliders to "0" they have it running flat. Not so. In order to run a pa flat it needs to be eq'd flat. By flat I mean even levels of all frequencies. The speakers you use and crossover points will affect this. This can be achieved by ear if you are a god of live sound. The rest of us mere mortals rely on RTA (real time analysis) kit. Personally I use a Behringer DEQ2496 which has been by far the most valuable addition to my rack. It's a great EQ and has RTA analysis built in. You use a special RTA mic (£30 ish) which plugs into the DEQ. The DEQ then plays pink noise through the system, listens to it and automatically makes eq adjustments until all is level. It's surprising how much eq it sometimes takes to get a system running flat.

In an ideal world you'd have time and silence to run RTA at every venue in order to get it flat in that particular room. Forget it - it'll never happen. Your best bet is to find a nice big outdoor open space, wait for a still dry day, set up the PA and run the RTA. Store the resulting setting as this will give you a fair start point at every gig. You should then be able to tweak out room issues from there. Now you're running flat.

Soundcheck should become something of a routine at gigs. There's some great advice above my post so go from there. My advice is to get people used to eqing their sound at rehearsal so that there's no clash. When you have guitars, keys, bass and drums together it can easily get muddy. Guitars will need to be in a region where they occupy the higher frequency zone, keys in the middle, bass below and kick drum below the lot. High pass filters should be engaged on all but bass and kick drum.

I start at a gig in this order:

1. Vocals
2. Kick drum
3. Rest of kit
4. Bass
5. Keys
6. Guitars

My band mates are all sh1t scared of adjusting their vol after soundcheck as they know they'll get short shrift.

Hope this helps. If you want to get uber geeky go here: [url="http://billfitzmaurice.info/forum/viewforum.php?f=4&sid=7cf1a4124c08a945a3ee13e3a432c2b3"]http://billfitzmaurice.info/forum/viewforum.php?f=4&sid=7cf1a4124c08a945a3ee13e3a432c2b3[/url]

Good luck with the new project. Seems like you care enough about sound and professionalism which is where amateur bands usually fail.

[Truckstop]

Awesome! Thank you, that's some great advice!

Alex

[51m0n]

The dbx Driverack is another great tool for PA setup, not cheap at all, but can really do a lot to manager your PA, get it flatter and help manager feedback spikes (when the lead vocalist is a tool and drops the mic in to the monitors), and all sorts of gerneal limiting and protection type stuff. Its a lot more than a crossover, and an eq, and a limiter, and a feedback destroyer....

[thumperbob 2002]

Hi Pal-

Graphic on its way to you- should get it tomorrow -or Thurs.

It actually has a Feedback tool- think its called FBT- which when you push a button and ring out the pa ( turn it up!! ) the offending frequency lights up- turn down that one and turn up pa. Easy.

I always do our live sound out front with a wireless- I have a Mackie 1608 so can mix out front using a router too.

I think it is important to mix the whole band as one mix and not to concentrate on one instrument ( unless you have problems with it. ). You`ll quickly know which frequency to cut to have a balanced mix. The problem with some musicians is that they get carried away on a gig and go for it once they are on and so play harder than in a soundcheck. Not good for sound.

Listen to a record of your type of band and try to emulate the mix- keep those keybaords down in the mix!! They will fill the midrange if you are not careful. I tend to have them really quite bright with a High Pass Filter on almost everything. Too much to talk about in one post!

[Truckstop]

Cheers!

Everyone's so f***ing helpful on BC. Like, really awesome!

I honestly can't think of another resource I'd ever use. Even if I wanted to know where to buy a van, or if I wanted discount codes for something or even where's nice to visit in Bath (Pratt's Hotel restaurant someone said; I've been back 4 times).

Alex