Advice on Celestion BL 10-200S 10" Speaker Chassis Please

[Stompbox]

I'm looking to replace tow 10" drivers in my Ashdown Mag400 210T bass combo. The existing speakers sound very tired/poor volume when doing an A/B test with a fairly new MAG210T.

It's all a question of money, of course.

I can get a really good deal on 2 new, boxed Celestion BL 10-200S speakers - I contacted Celestion for the spec sheet & it's attached below.
I also attach the spec sheet for the original SICA (Italian) speakers that are in the cabinet now. (Z006540 - obsolete unit )

They are both 16 ohm speakers, and the pair would be wired in parallel to give an 8 ohm cabinet.
The Celestion speakers, whilst weighing an extra 1.8 kilos each, have a sensitivity of 97 db, the old SICA speakers have only 91.6 db , so the Celestions should be louder, and they have greater power handling.

Does anyone have any experience with the Celestions, or can you spot any drawback in the spec sheet data?

I also attach the replacement that SICA suggested ( Z005902) - this time a Neo 4 ohm driver, so would have to put the two in series, , but these are much more expensive......or do you know of any other 10" that may be worth trying?

Any help gratefully received.

Cheers,

Stompbox

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Cannot open those files, unknown format.

[pete.young]

This looks like the usual bug with .pdf format files - the brain-dead forum software re-names the files and then nothing will open them. The work-around is to either set your browser up to treat .ipb as pdf, or save the files and re-name them.

Both workarounds are unacceptable IMHO, it's long beyond due that whoever is responsible for this board software got their finger out and fixed the error.

[Stompbox]

Oh - what a shame - they are Adobe acrobat 7.0 files - is there another way to display these?

[LawrenceH]

You can open them using acrobat if you tell it to directly. The Sica looks crazy, like it's designed to give a booming one note mid-bass response and f&*% all else.

Despite the high resonant frequency I think the Celestion would sound ok in most vented cabs, as long as they're not tuned too low. People could tell you more if you knew the internal dimensions and tuning of the cabinet. It should sound reasonably detailed and balanced.
Main drawback is the lack of info on the maximum excursion capability. Given that it's only a 2" voice coil and looking at the freq chart I'd guess, based on other Celestion speakers, that it's not so high. This means you won't be able to feed a lot of low end in before you reach the limits of the cab - certainly if you had 400 watts of real low bass it would be more than the speakers could handle. In reality, it's not going to be any worse than most other cheap speakers so if the price is something like the £25 per speaker with the Blue Aran JAM club and you are realistic about the amount of bass a 210 loaded with cheap drivers can manage, it will be fine. I'd bank on it sounding a lot better than the speakers in there!

[Stompbox]

Hey thanks for that LawrenceH - I would be putting around 150/175 watts in - not the max total rating of 400, that's for sure.

Celestion also do a 100watt version, I've just found, so that may be better, running them at around 2/3 of their rating, rather then under driving them?

The existing 10's have had a lot of use for quite a long period of time, and may be" tired", or the new r MAG 210T cabinet may just have better spec speakers....

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Stompbox' timestamp='1352157605' post='1859615']
Hey thanks for that LawrenceH - I would be putting around 150/175 watts in - not the max total rating of 400, that's for sure.

Celestion also do a 100watt version, I've just found, so that may be better, running them at around 2/3 of their rating, rather then under driving them?

The existing 10's have had a lot of use for quite a long period of time, and may be" tired", or the new r MAG 210T cabinet may just have better spec speakers....
[/quote]

You can't really 'under-drive' a speaker so definitely don't drop down on that basis. Reasons to do so would be if the lower wattage speakers had higher excursion capability and/or higher sensitivity - or for the weight. If you mean the BL10-100X then that probably does have a little more excursion capability but, with 150 watts total, I'd personally not be too worried about that. If the weight/cash is an issue then the 100 is a good cheap option IMO

[Stompbox]

[url="http://www.laauser.com/celestion/downloaddocs/celestion/guitar/BL10-100.pdf"]http://www.laauser.com/celestion/downloaddocs/celestion/guitar/BL10-100.pdf[/url]

It was this one, the BL10-100, but with16 ohm impedance

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

With 73Hz Fs the Celestion isn't well suited to electric bass. I wouldn't use a driver with higher than 55Hz Fs.

[Stompbox]

Cheers Bill.

[Phil Starr]

Don't go for the 100W Celestion it has a smaller magnet and isn't really going to be suitable for your cab. Do you have to have an 8 ohm cab? A 4ohm cab means you can use 8ohm drive units and there is a wider choice available for you.

I cant find that exact model on Celestions web site. the BL200X (8ohms) gives an Xmax of 4mm but at a lower sensitivity than you give.

It may be worth contacting Ashdown and finding out what they would charge for repalcement speakers. Rumour is that they are not too expensive and you would get the sound of the new speakers you tried if you use the same drivers.

[Stompbox]

Good morning Phil - that's a good idea - I'll try Ashdown direct - I never thought of that - a good lateral move - maybe won't be too expensive.

Thinking about it I did get a fresh set of speakers off them - these that I'm looking to change are, in fact, replacements from some years back as a DJ blew the original set up....

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

With respect to the OEM Sica, the Qts of 1.16 means it's only suitable for a sealed enclosure, and will have a boomy response with weak lows, while the 2mm xmax limits actual low frequency power handling to perhaps 25 watts. In short, it's a really crap driver.
The neo driver specs are much better, but the 3mm xmax is still marginal. IMO 4mm is the minimum acceptable.

[LawrenceH]

Celestion and I think Sica report Xmax the old way - if it was a Faital or 18Sound, the xmax value would probably be double for the 2mm ones! I wouldn't be fussed about it. I also don't think the high Fs is going to be such an issue, compared to many 10" cabs on the market it models well enough and a lot better than the OEM Sica.

I have used 12" Celestion ceramics with a stated 2mm xmax for bass and they sound very nice and go damn loud driven by a 300w Trace Elliot. I haven't noticed any underperformance compared to eg Eminence-loaded cabs either, which I've also owned. You can undoubtedly go a lot louder with premium drivers and high power, but with 150 watts spread right across the spectrum you aren't going to run into trouble below 100Hz unless the signal is very heavily EQed either at the amp or with an active pre. If you want a lot of the low E fundamental then it's not realistic in a cheap 210 with only 150 watts, however most cheaper/medium cabs sound ok because they reproduce the harmonics above 80Hz well enough, which gives a subjective impression of bass.

With all the chat on here about speaker 'minimum requirements' I sometimes wonder if everyone else plays extended range doom, or everywhere I've lived in the UK has totally atypical venues. I've got a Markbass F1 and a pair of 1x10 cabs each loaded with a premium Celestion neo PA unit - I've just been leaving the second cab at home recently because I get enough clean volume with the one. That's playing quite bass-heavy dub/ska/hip-hop too...of course even the smaller venues have subs half the time.

[Stompbox]

[sup][size=5]OK - well i'm going to take an "empirical" approach to this[/size][/sup]

[sup][size=5]I'm going to swap the speakers from the newer cab to the older cab & see if the improvement transfers. [/size][/sup]

[sup][size=5]The cabinets are not identical - the newer is the 210T deep cab with twin rear ports, the older is a slot front ported compact cabinet.[/size][/sup]

[sup][size=5]The speakers from the newer cab are Ashdown "blue cone" speakers that weigh only a mere 2.3 kilos. Labelled "Blueline" HK02046 100 watt 16ohm driver with 1 3/4 " coils that appear to e very similar to the Celestion BL10-100 (?BL= Blueline????).[/size][/sup]

[sup][size=5]So I'll be busy unscrewing/soldering etc.[/size][/sup]

[sup][size=5]I'll post again when I see if the improved sound transfers or whether the deep cab makes the difference.... who knows, maybe the older tired speakers in the deep cab will get a new lease of life & the newer, perhaps more sensitive ones may balance out in the smaller cabinet....[/size][/sup]

[sup][size=5] [/size][/sup]

[buff]

Not that its much use at present, but when my blue speakers in my abm 2x10 starting farting. I replaced them with these http://www.lean-business.co.uk/eshop/celestion-bn10200s-16ohm-neo-magnet-bass-guitar-speaker-10-p-320.html and was more than happy with the results and weight saving.

[Stompbox]

Cheers for that, buff

[Phil Starr]

Hi Lawrence, the difference in Xmax isn't that great with the different measuring techniques, I've been developing some cabs for 15" deltalites with 4.2mm Xmax and with some cabs I'm getting excursion limiting at 35W at some frequencies.

I'm kind of with BFM on this one, With only two 10" speakers Xmax of 2mm is a potential problem, even if it is 2,6mm in real money.

The high resonance is also an issue, though not necessarily a deal breaker. If Fs is 73 then in a cab it will be higher, probably a whole octave over E or more. There will be a hump between 100-150Hz somewhere to compensate but this will give the speaker that sound which so many commercial cabs have. If what you want is that particular colour to your sound then it isn't a problem, in many ways it is the old-school sound. If the OP wants that sound then great but he should know what he will get with the Celestions when there are other more neutral speakers at that price point.

That Sica is awful though.

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1352331194' post='1861962']
Hi Lawrence, the difference in Xmax isn't that great with the different measuring techniques, I've been developing some cabs for 15" deltalites with 4.2mm Xmax and with some cabs I'm getting excursion limiting at 35W at some frequencies.

I'm kind of with BFM on this one, With only two 10" speakers Xmax of 2mm is a potential problem, even if it is 2,6mm in real money.

The high resonance is also an issue, though not necessarily a deal breaker. If Fs is 73 then in a cab it will be higher, probably a whole octave over E or more. There will be a hump between 100-150Hz somewhere to compensate but this will give the speaker that sound which so many commercial cabs have. If what you want is that particular colour to your sound then it isn't a problem, in many ways it is the old-school sound
[/quote]

Hi Phil,
The 'old school sound' is a pretty good compromise for a smallish cab that won't be fed hundreds of watts IMO, presumably that's why it's so common! Lots of the Deltalite-based cabs that people like have precisely this boosted response in the upper bass/low mids. Bill's own Jack 10s that I've built, played through and tested sound very 'loud and low' yet most of the output is in the low mids there is very little below 100Hz in comparison. Actually, simming those Celestions in various boxes they don't behave too badly either, the hump is pretty gentle.

After playing through various DIY and commercial cabs I've come to the conclusion that for many purposes the mid-range response say between 200 and 4k has far more effect on perception of tone than the true bass register - room responses are so variable and it contains so comparatively little pitch info that we just 'edit' a fair amount of this out at gigs! Chest thump is nice of course but comes at a significant price - let's not forget the OP is trying to reach the sound of a current Ashdown MAG, it's not exactly going to be something only achievable with £300 B&C drivers.

Although xmax is undoubtedly important I think it is a much mis-referenced quantity in relation to bass guitar. The power distribution in 'typical' (passive) bass guitar low note signals when you analyse it has surprisingly little below 80Hz, even on peaks where the nature of the attack envelope means the signal contains a fair degree of HF transient too. It's really, really hard to drive e.g. a 500w bass amp to produce anything near 500 watts pure bass signal with actual bass guitar*. String thump can get far closer but IMO xmax is not the massive issue you might imagine, because it is not a musical signal. What matters most there is behaviour beyond xmax and that's where speakers can really differ. Depending on the xlim failure mode, once suspension braking kicks in it starts to sound really mid-range nasty before you hit xlim, with others I think eg the voice-coil can bottom out first so failure is far more sudden. If either of those happen then the thump makes it sound awful. The Celestion NTRs I've used have xmax (old-fashioned) of 4mm but xlim is 13mm! Braking kicks in around 10 though and according to Celestion themselves, that's when it starts to sound nasty. The Deltalite 10s have xmax 4.2mm (THD-based I think?) but xlim of 8. I don't know what the failure mode is on these but with a 500 watt amp driving really hard I can get them to sound quite nasty. I can't get there with the Celestions they just keep going with the amp on 11! A much under-rated range.

Of course a very linear long-excursion woofer sounds much 'tighter' but you're not going to pick one of those up for £20 that has a useable midrange response and sensitivity. Buff's Orange labels have a similar high Fs and ~2mm xmax, these are/were the speakers loaded in to Warwick's neo range and despite all the doom-mongering the mid-range response makes them sound nice and clear.

In terms of actually measuring xmax, don't forget from an engineering perspective it's a somewhat arbitrary quantity by any other method than the old-fashioned one (and even by that one if the manufacturer is using technologies designed to manipulate the Bl curve). There's methods based on acceptable THD with pure or multiple tones and then there's methods based on specifying a given value for acceptable deviation from small signal parameters. Either way the thresholds for what's acceptable are set for convenience - audibility will always vary on application and user. Xlim is a far more robust quantity in that sense. The 'modern' standard arithmetic method of adding on 1/4 of the gap height can give good agreement with other measuring methods and makes intuitive sense - for many of those 2mm Celestions it's an extra 2mm 'magically gained' like other (even respectable) manufacturers do. Those Celestion ceramics I mentioned are K12-300Bs, sold as bass woofers in the late 90s. Used as actual subs we've driven them hard and they can't hack it nearly as well as a modern driver, but for bass guitar it's just never been a limiting factor - there's always been enough volume on tap with a 300 watt head. The 410 configuration I'd assume the OP will end up with is going to be similarly ear-breaking if not louder.

*I would say that active EQs change the equation somewhat since they can incorporate such massive boosts at ridiculously low frequencies, but then you run into real issue with amp power and gain structure before the signal even reaches the speaker.

Anyway this is all very off-topic and perhaps I should start a separate thread, apologies to the original poster for cluttering it up. You could always ask Celestion what xmax on the 16ohm drivers you linked to actually is rather than my speculation(!), they've always been very helpful to me in the past. But ultimately, if you try it and it sounds good, then it is good.

Edited November 8, 2012 by LawrenceH

[Stompbox]

OK - I've swapped them over - the newer "Blueline" speaker chassis are clearly louder, so they must have a greater ensitivity, and the old SICA ones do sound better now they are in the "Deep" cabinet, so I think I wll order a pair of the Celestion BL10-100's and see which cabinet I wind up using & using them in.

I guess I'll retire the old SICA drivers.

I'll post again as and when I get the new speakers & fit them.....

[Stompbox]

Good evening!
Well I have got the new Celestion BL10-100's and fitted them to the old front ported Ashdown 210T (slim) cabinet, and moved the Ashdown Blueline 100 watt speakers back into their Ashdown 210T (Deep) cabinet.

The result is good - the new Celestions are clear, and loud - pretty much equivalent to the Blueline 100's. They are slightly smaller, so I've used two of the four original screw holes, and drilled another two to accommodate the (maybe) 4mm smaller size. The Celestions are about 750 grammes heavier than the Bluelines, so no big change there.

Thesound is similar too - whereas the old SICA spakers now sound very dull/woolly and quite a bit quieter for the same wasttage -( the old ones were rated 81Db/Watt/Metre, the new ones 96 Db/Watt/Metre).

I know these are a cheap(er) speaker, but that is a consideration to me, as is the weight.

"When I put both cabinets on I get a great sound (to my ears, anyway), individually they are OK, with the deeper cabinet having the edge on a better" sound.

It isn't a truly deep, thunderous sound - an element of "honk" is there, but it is a big improvement.

Thanks to all who posted on this topic,

Cheers,

Stompbox